What have we learnt from the Russian weaponary in the brief Russia / Georgia war

What I have learnt from this thread is that there are some people who automatically assume the supremacy of U.S. military might and that killing is o.k. and almost a god-given right. I am also aware that there are people in the U.S. who don't support this so this is not directed at you.

Warmongers, war-wishers, bravado-spouting killers and murderers make me sick and Iam glad that I do not have to share a country with you.

As your 'illustrious' president said " You are either with us or against us"
I guess that makes me 'against' you.

Pox americana

reply to post by ChChKiwi


And what I've learnt is that your post has contributed pretty much nothing to this thread.

Here's my second line so this isn't a one line post.

reply to post by ChChKiwi



I agree with you. It has gone to far. Its like it has become a sport to build the best killing maskins. You can see that in the way we brag about ouer stealth and so on. It is just so sad realy.

I'm guessing we've got a lot of young men on this post. War is politics. The Russians had to react quickly to a Georgian surprise attack and they did it astonishingly well. That shows excellent leadership at the higher levels and guess what; that's what matters!

By contrast the US is embroiled in confilcts in Iraq and Afghanistan that they show no signs of winning. The most likely outcome in Iraq is a huge increase in Iranian influence. That shows miserable generalship. If I was an American I would be furious that the US spends more on defence than the next 10 countries and what are you getting for your money. (BTW the asnwer is some jobs in the defence industry and rather larger profits and prok barrels to share out in the military industrial complex).

Finally to the numb skull who thought that Nato could defeat Russia in few weeks, learn some damn history! That's what Napoleon thought and what Hitler thought. They were wrong too.

I've just spent the last hour reading this whole thread and it all seems to be muscle flexing "we are the best, they'd kick your arse". What no one has really picked up on the actual politics in the region.

Georgia declared its independence in 1991 after the collapse of communism. Many of the 70,000 people in South Ossetia speak Russian and carry Russian passports.

On Sunday 12 November 2006, South Ossetians went to the polls to vote in a referendum confirming the region's independence from Georgia. The result was an overwhelming "yes" to independence, with a turnout above 95% from those among the territory's 70,000 people who were eligible to vote.

Georgia launched a military strike on the province of South Ossetia, aiming to reclaim it after 16 years of semi-independence.



Here's a quote from USA Today

Georgian forces had killed Russian peacekeepers there and were committing acts of "ethnic cleansing" of native Russians living there.

Now I'm used to the cold war (ex UK services) and I'm well aware of the capabilities of all nations involved, what I can't get my head around is the amount of lambasting that the Russians have received for protecting their own people. I'm sure if it were the UK or American citizens/territories being attacked and we were to retaliate then no one would bat an eyelid.

Edit......

If I have some how miss read the situation in Georgia then I would like someone to explain it properly to me.

Thanks

[edit on 29-9-2008 by yeebsy]

What did we learn from the Russian Georgian conflict? Here's the most important thing:

1. There's a giant misconception about the logistics of this war.

Everyone was spouting off that Russia the 'giant' or 'great' bear used its huge size and strength to crush "tiny" Georgia. FALSE.

Here's the facts:

The Russian brigade that moved in from the 58th army stationed in Vladivavkaz had around initially 8-10,000 men. Georgia's committed troops in the area of Tshikinvali was probably around 20-25,000 troops while the rest of their troops (around 28 to 30k total they have) were in defensive positions scattered around the country and most importantly defending Tbilisi.

People seem to blindly assume that this was some sort of prepared war like Russia had their best units and army coming down to the forsaken Caususes long ago just to invade Georgia. Everyone seems to forget that Russia responded instantly with just whatever they had lying around.
And what did they have lying around? Well namely the battle worn Chechen war battalions stationed in Vladivavkaz. This 58th army doesn't have even CLOSE to Russia's best equipment or best trained troops. Think about it they're out there in the middle of no where in the caucuses this is like saying that the crappy American national guard troops stationed in Anchorage Alaska are the best equipped and trained troops in the entire American combat forces.
What a joke, the truth is as soon as S.O. was attacked Russia responded as quickly as possible with whatever ragtag battalions they had there which happened to be those from the 58th stationed not far away in Vladivavkaz. This contingent numbered literally up to HALF of what Georgia had in troop numbers and they were ill equipped with old t72's and other ill-begotten equipment and yet they still utterly STEAMROLLED the Georgians like there was no tomorrow. In fact I don't think any modern conflict has seen a modern 'army' get demoralized and steamrolled in such an incredible way.
Even U.S. was not capable of doing this in Iraq or anywhere else. Please remember that when they invaded, most of the Iraqi's were already demoralized and the top generals paid off by the CIA in order to surrender or retreat so there was zero resistance.
Russia utterly steamrolled and destroyed a MODERN FIGHTING FORCE that was equipped and trained by not only the U.S. but also Israel.
Russia was OUTMATCHED in both size power and equipment during this conflict the only real superiority or advantage they had was the air superiority, yet they still utterly steamrolled and eviscerated the entire Georgian ground forces in a day. Incredible.

Originally posted by Fromabove
First.. let me put this puppy to bed this way. Russia had it's war with Islamics like Iraq. It was called Afghanistan, remember. After a many year struggle they lost, were humiliated, and left with their tails between their legs. We (the USA) invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq and won both wars. The only reason Iraq took so long is because unlike the Russians we didn't just roll in and gun down all the civillians and leave taking spoil home with us like the barbarians they are.

First let me put you to bed little boy.

Afghan forces when Russia invaded Afghanistan: 250,000
Russian forces: Soviet forces: 80,000-104,000


Afghan losses: 2 million (including civilians)
Russian losses: 15,000



US-Afghan War:

Taliban forces: 30,000 at most

U.S./Nato forces: somewhere between 70,000-100,000 total

Taliban/afghan losses: 30,000+
U.S./Coalition losses (including Afghan security on US side): 5,000



Vietnam/US war:

North strength: 520,000
US + anticommunist forces strength: 1,200,000

US losses: 60,000



So it seems as you can see the one time that US has fought this sort of war akin to the Soviet Afghanistan, the US lost 60k men whereas the Soviets lost only 15k.

Don't compare their two Afghan invasions as I just clearly exposed to you are not even comparable in numbers, US faced a Taliban force of a few tens of thousands, while Soviets faced a force hundreds of times stronger and larger AND being heavily supplied and financed by the U.S.

The US invaded a run down version of Iraq and Afghanistan and still can't even handle the peasants with ak47's after 10 years of 'occupation' that has seen another 5,000+ US deaths.

Also 2 small facts for you:


Soviets controlled far more of Afghanistan during their invasion than even U.S. does now.

Soviets were not 'humiliated and ran with tail between their legs', Soviets lost 15k men while Afghans lost 2 million, hardly a bitter defeat or humiliation and lastly when Soviets finally pulled out, their final battle was a tremendous success and was the biggest victory of the entire war, so they hardly went out on a losing streak unlike the U.S.
As it seems you're just a typical american teenager with little knowledge on the matter let me educate you:

"In the last phase, Soviet troops prepared and executed their withdrawal from Afghanistan. They hardly engaged in offensive operations at all, and were content to defend against mujahideen raids.

The one exception was Operation Magistral, a successful sweep that cleared the road between Gardez and Khost. This operation did not have any lasting effect, but it allowed the Soviets to symbolically end their presence with a victory.[39]"

As you can see Soviet-Afghan war was not even half the embarrassment that the incompetent US/Vietnam war was.

reply to post by rufusdrak[/url]

So am I right in thinking that, according to your post and figures, the US involvement if Afghanistan is really nothing more than a War of Attrition!

If you really believe that, next you'll be saying you still believe in "Peace Through Superior Firepower".

I would have hoped that by now, the proponents of this failed strategy would have learnt the lessons that were handed to them in the paddyfields and jungles of Viet Nam and the deserts and townships of Mogadishu.

It seems to me at least, that the US led coalition has learnt very little from the way the Russians were defeated in Afghanistan.

However, we all fail to remember that the great Northern Alliance were trained by most of the west's special forces in one shape or another and were armed amongst others, by the CIA and SIS.

We Brits and the US in particular, waged a surrogate war - through the Muj and the Taleban and when these fiery warriors were fighting and killing Russians, they could do no wrong.

Now the boot is on the other foot, and the freedom fighters of yesterday who we helped defeat the world's second superpower, have suddenly become terrorists and are [somehow] involved in 9/11.

I have said this time and time again: Yes, we should fight the bad guys whenever or wherever they appear and do so with all available means.

But, we should also be fighting the Hearts and Minds War. We Brits are trying to, but it is hard to win the battle when you have a gung-ho chappy overhead with the 'Patience my arse! I want to kill something!' mentality.

RIP to Russian and Georgian soldiers and South Ossetian civillians killed because of Saakashvilli.

What did the US learn from the Russian/Georgian conflict?

Lots. But contrary to conventional wisdom, the US military is not stupid. So you'll never really know for sure. In fact, I'm sure the USJFCOM has no problem with the rest of the world perceiving them as a bunch of dim-witted, red-necked cowboys.

Look back through history:

Washington vs. Cornwallis
Jackson vs. Keane
Sgt. York vs. the Huns

After all, that's how both Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush won two terms in office each: they let their opponents (Carter, Mondale, Gore and Kerry) think that they were oh, so much smarter and sophisticated than this slack-jawed hayseed they were running against.

Ego and pride are deadly weapons.

Originally posted by Fromabove
First.. let me put this puppy to bed this way. Russia had it's war with Islamics like Iraq. It was called Afghanistan, remember. After a many year struggle they lost, were humiliated, and left with their tails between their legs. We (the USA) invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq and won both wars. The only reason Iraq took so long is because unlike the Russians we didn't just roll in and gun down all the civillians and leave taking spoil home with us like the barbarians they are.

As for weaponry, they have no new weaponry except some new missles. It took five days to take two ity bity pieces of Georgia, and only after the Georgians retreated because the Russians were destoying non military infrastructure. They are weak. We are building up our military presence in Georgian ports and what are they doing...? Uhh... nothing because they won't take us on.

As for new weaponry, yes, we have it all. It would take time to say it here so I'll make the below posts from outside sources and you be the judge. And these are just the declassified stuff. I'll leave it to the imagination what the classified stuff might be. Needless to say, when we fight Russia, it will be but a short war.

You are full of #, Afghanistan is lost to the coallition, Iraq outside the greenzone is also lost (some may say it was never won) everyone knows it, even military commanders admit it, but will not pull out, because once the Taliban, republican guard get back in power, it will be egg all over your face. Also Vietnam ring a bell? Pussies lol.

Anyway Russians did not kill innocent civilians willy nilly like your playstation trigger happy troops are doing in Iraq. The Russian even gave advanced warning to Taliban strongholds of an invasion, this would allow women, children and the elderly time to retreat from the coming battle. The US just bombs or phosphers the town with no warning (mostly at night so people are asleep and have no time to react), then decides to roll in like heros after there is no one left to attack. Not to mention Russia went it alone and had more success than your international coalition is having combined!

Russia used old outdated armour and planes, yet they still ripped Georgia and the 1000 elite force mercenaries it hired, a new asshole, not to mention Georgia was using cutting edge US hardware. Now imagine if Russia had used any Spetsnaz, t90, su35 and advanced projectiles? They would have finished Georgia in one day with the air strikes alone, instead they send a stark and cold warning to the US, fuk with us, we will rip you a new one!

As for the buildup in the ports of US military harware? What wet dream was that you had? As far as I was aware, the US were so damn scared of Russian Cruisers in the black sea, they sent in warships with the supplies, only because they knew Russia is not stupid to attack a military ship and start ww3 over nothing. The ships went in, offloaded asap then ran like the wind.

Finally you talk about your weapons over the Russians? Again another wet dream, Russia bests western hardware on almost everything (not everything but almost), also you think only the US has secret tech in storage and development? Given current Russian tech is superior to US tech, the future could easily see that trend staying and the war being pretty short indeed (only for the US lol).

reply to post by jerico65


Yeah, about those Russian archives of casualties. Did it count the hundreds that were gunned down by their own NCO's? What was it Stalin said? Something like, "It takes a brave man to be a coward in the Russian Army."

The Russian army has always been a real class act.

And as far as my personal dream of killing a damned Russian communist, yes, I realized my dream one time. And it was sweet!

Originally posted by dooper
And as far as my personal dream of killing a damned Russian communist, yes, I realized my dream one time. And it was sweet!

Oh well you are just a badass aren't you? How cute.

You can take a rifle any day - and go hunt yourself some Russians in Chechnya or South Ossetia. See how that works out for you. I'll bet you'll win the war single handedly, right before you wake up from your dream.

reply to post by maloy


No dream. 1972. During a firefight saw a guy holding to the rear (Russian advisor), maybe 150 yards, and stunned that he was tall and had blonde hair! I thought at first that it was an American until I saw him directing some of the enemy troops. Got him through the neck, and after the firefight, remembered him, found him, and while all his belongings were taken by intelligence, I snatched what looked like a coin around his neck.

Yep. Chinese communists. Vietnamese communists. Russian communists. Didn't matter to me. Wouldn't matter now.

LOL! Somebody is certainly a fan of Tom Clancy novels!

First - There were no Russian “advisors” in Nam in 72, and they sure as heck never commanded any NVA troops. They were SOVIET “special groups” that were tasked with collecting American combat equipment for technical evaluation, but they were always FAR away from any active combat areas. Same thing with technical advisors, specifically Radar/SAM specialists, while they were actively involved in training and collecting data, they were never in any proximity to combat.


Second – Tall BLOND Russians? Did you get that from a Rocky movie? “I must break you!” LOL! Who are you kidding? Russians are blond and tall only in propaganda movies.

ATS really tolerates such nonsense?

- and while all his belongings were taken by intelligence, I snatched what looked like a coin around his neck.-

Sure, the so called “intelligence” would take the “belongings” of what had to be a ranking “Russian advisor”, but left his body for the enemy forces. Coin around the neck is a nice touch.

This is a good one too;

“Did it count the hundreds that were gunned down by their own NCO's?”

Not hundreds, but thousands upon thousands, and this is how.

1945 Poland, a pair of Soviet privates went to a local village and traded a horse that was pulling their cannon for a bunch of Polish vodka. They drank for two days straight. When the CO found out, both were marched in front of the entire regiment, and executed, and that is called military discipline in a time of war.

This I do fully agree with though –

“I'm guessing we've got a lot of young men on this post.”

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Well that's kinda funny. It was a tall, blonde guy, and the reason he jumped out at me was because I too, am blonde. And whether or not there were Russian advisors with NVA, you absolutely must be correct, so maybe he was on vacation. Who gives a damn? He was Russian, with the NVA, and with him waving his arms and such, it drew my attention! Was he a Russian who was a prisoner of the NVA? I doubt it, but you're the frigging expert! I've read some of your posts before, and on some things I agree with, some I don't, but you are one know-it-all-jerk.

I went from 180 pounds to 145, as I never, ever, came to a rear base. My rear area was a forward firebase.

Let me guess. At some point in your existence, you had something to do or currently have something to do with military intelligence. God, your BS authoritative manner gives you away. Which makes you an authority on all things military at all times. The very term "military intelligence" is a misnomer.

Hey, do you have any idea of exactly who was out there in the bush, getting the raw intelligence, finding what was there, how many, what direction, weapons, etc., that was fed to intelligence in the first place? The only time these jerks showed up was when we found something "unusual." And this was one of those times.

I can count the number of times on one hand how often military intelligence was correct, and the other hundreds of times of how completely off they were. We used to laugh at intelligence estimates because we would actually be there to know different, and assume that they sat in the rear areas, getting high, and had dice to come up with their so-called intelligence.

I'll tell you something else. I picked the pistol off a Chinese Major, and traded it for a custom, sawed off 12-guage shotgun that had been written off as a combat loss. I suppose that Chinese SOB wasn't there either! Both times, we were instructed that we found neither one. After all, it might screw up the so-called intelligence experts, who couldn't find their asses with both hands.

By the way, the Russian was just across the border in Laos.

Apparently you were there.

Why don't you tell me about that day.

reply to post by dooper


you are full of # your credibility is 0%

reply to post by dooper


sounds like fisher man stories to me ,


nonsense, how come ATS allow such drivel .....

rein in on this troll mods .....

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by maloy

 

No dream. 1972. During a firefight saw a guy holding to the rear (Russian advisor), maybe 150 yards, and stunned that he was tall and had blonde hair! I thought at first that it was an American until I saw him directing some of the enemy troops. Got him through the neck, and after the firefight, remembered him, found him, and while all his belongings were taken by intelligence, I snatched what looked like a coin around his neck.

Yep. Chinese communists. Vietnamese communists. Russian communists. Didn't matter to me. Wouldn't matter now.

Can you show me some proof of this "Gold Coin"