Using Government databases to verify age on regular websites *warning*

Originally posted by azzllin
It is about time something was done to stop kids getting at adult material on the internet, it is too easy for them to just put in false information and then get access to all kinds of sick depraved rubbish, and I'm not talking about porn either

to quote what others in this thread have already said:

Originally posted by crimvelvet
Ever hear of a lock on the door? Why should parents rely on the government to babysit their kids? This type of reliance is exactly what they wish to foster.

Lock-up that TV and computer and make you kids go out and play, get some exercise or read a book. MONITOR what they are doing. Don't rely on those electronic babysitters.

and

Originally posted by Darth Logan
You have security settings on your computer to restrict what your kids can view online. It should not be up to the government to decide what or who is alowed to view a website.

Instead of restating what they have said, I just quoted them. It's already been put quite eloquently: "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

Truth is i don't care about that stuff, i have nothing to hide, if i want to protest i will, what difference does it make if it is recorded?

This is the same, dangerous mentality that's at the root of the issue. The problem is, what about when you DO have something to hide. Say, in Nazi Germany for example... could you imagine people wanting to hide things about themselves? This is how the law works: once a law is created, that makes something illegal that was previouly legal, criminals are created. So something that previously was not something to hide, now must be hidden.

You say you have no problem being recorded, even if protesting. That's fine, until protesting is made illegal, and then they begin reviewing the tapes and imposing retroactive enforcement of the law.

I don't want my kids watching some jackass acting like an idiot, I don't want my kids to see someone else's idea of fun with Animals, and i definitely don't want my kids watching some poor sod being beheaded by a bunch of fanatical lunatics.

Great! me neither! The difference is, I would prefer you take that responsibility on yourself, as a responsible adult. You made the decision to bring children into this world, not me - so YOU need to raise them, not me.

I don't get it sometimes, people want freedom, and society to go back the way it is, they want criminals off the streets, and want terrorists stopped before they blow up their neighborhood. But they don't want themselves being caught by a camera walking down the street, that tells me they have something they feel guilty about.

And like you, I dont get it. You want freedom and safety, only looking at criminals as thieves, murders, rapists, etc. It seems you fail to realize that once you put all the power into the hands of the state / government / police - as soon as those police / state / government officials become corrupt, you have nowhere else to turn, as you have already given away all of your privacy, security and logic.

I am certainly not afraid of a terrorist blowing up my neighborhood, at least not as much as I am terrified of this mentality becoming the norm (I'm afraid it already is).

[edit on 1-9-2008 by scientist]

p.s. I'm amazed that this thread has turned from a warning of invasion of privacy, to "who cares, what is the importance of privacy anyways?"

I never would have guessed such a ridiculous thing would need to be debated on ATS of all places. Perhaps that shows how naive I truly am.

Originally posted by azzllin
It is about time something was done to stop kids getting at adult material on the internet, it is too easy for them to just put in false information and then get access to all kinds of sick depraved rubbish, and I'm not talking about porn either, I'm open minded about anything, what others do in private is none of my business.

if your kids can get access to that stuff on the web it's your fault, if other peoples kids can get access it's none of your business. you have no right to care about what other people deem acceptable or not.

I don't want my kids watching some jackass acting like an idiot, I don't want my kids to see someone else's idea of fun with Animals, and i definitely don't want my kids watching some poor sod being beheaded by a bunch of fanatical lunatics.

then take some responsibility for what your children do online. why the heck should my right to privacy be denied because you're a lazy, no good, waste of space who isn't able to tell their children what they can and cannot do online and is to lazy to take the simple steps to ensure they follow your rules.

I don't get it sometimes, people want freedom, and society to go back the way it is, they want criminals off the streets, and want terrorists stopped before they blow up their neighborhood.
But they don't want themselves being caught by a camera walking down the street, that tells me they have something they feel guilty about.

the people who ''whine'' about reduction of freedom aren't generally stupid enough to believe that reduction of freedom leads to an increase in security. if you believe that cctv or id cards bother terrorists or criminals you are stupider than dirt. the only people it bothers are the people with enough brains to see where it has to lead.

its why i was carjacked two years ago by kids aged 10-14.

why? because kids watched something on-line they shouldn't have? yeah, it's nothing got to do with the fact that your car costs more than their parents earn in a year, does it. if mom and dad need to work three jobs to get by then there isn't a whole lot of time to raise little tommy right, is there? societies problems are often societies fault. take some responsibility.

If you don't wish to be filmed , then get your kids in at a decent time, and make sure you know where they are,

i do, it's not going to stop idiots like you being led by the nose towards a police state, and dragging me along by the short and curlies.

This is how the law works: once a law is created, that makes something illegal that was previouly legal, criminals are created. So something that previously was not something to hide, now must be hidden.

Your failing to understand a fundamental aspect behind this verification system; It is already illegal for children to view adult content. Hence there being no issue. As of right now, a minor can enter arbitrary false information and gain access to a multitude of adult themed content. This verification system works to circumvent that ability of a minor.

The freedom behind it is moot due to the information being PUBLIC DOMAIN and required by society for an ADULT to function properly. This affects MINORS only from doing the things MINORS are ALREADY not ALLOWED to do. Get the picture yet?

It's like being a teenager who wants to try out smoking (just an example so don't start getting pissy about it), your parents say no smoking for various reasons. You say screw it an shut your door and light one up. Your parents find out and remove your door. Who is the one at fault? You for doing what your not allowed to do as a minor or your parents for preventing you from doing what you are not allowed to do when you deliberately went against the rules? If you followed the rules as a minor (because this verification system is what it affects, minors), then things like this wouldn't have to be implemented.

You made the decision to bring children into this world, not me - so YOU need to raise them, not me.

Moot argument, YOU are not raising other peoples children because of some verification system that affects children only.

And like you, I dont get it. You want freedom and safety, only looking at criminals as thieves, murders, rapists, etc. It seems you fail to realize that once you put all the power into the hands of the state / government / police - as soon as those police / state / government officials become corrupt, you have nowhere else to turn, as you have already given away all of your privacy, security and logic.

It seems that you fail to realize that freedom and security would be more readily obtainable if people would just stop bending and breaking the rules of societies. There are certain things you can and CANNOT do, despite the examples given being extreme or not. Just being born into any society with rules imposed upon its members makes the freedom issue moot and invalid. You are NOT free to do as you please, like it or not. You are restricted the day you are born, and this verification system isn't being used to strip an ADULTS freedom to view the content, it is taking away the ability for a MINOR to do something they are already NOT SUPPOSED TO DO.

Your logic is flawed, your arguments are ridiculous, and your points are moot points. Try again, but this time THINK. This is why we adults make the rules and you kids don't.

last time i checked, www stood for WORLD WIDE WEB.
what if one doesn't live in the US and wants to access a website that is part of the WORLD WIDE WEB?

just because parents can't do their jobs in taking control over their offspring why should that ruin the fun for everyone?

this has nothing to do with security in my opinion.
it's a test run for things to come.

Originally posted by sirnex

You made the decision to bring children into this world, not me - so YOU need to raise them, not me.

Moot argument, YOU are not raising other peoples children because of some verification system that affects children only.

The system does affect me. It is forcing me to put in private information, to protect someone I have never met, and have no interest in protecting. YOu claim this is "PUBLIC DOMAIN." Thanks for the caps, I read it correctly the first time. Some people do not have their information listed publicly, which is a smart move. Perhaps you have never been the victim of identity theft, which would explain your apathy on the matter.

Originally posted by sirnex
It seems that you fail to realize that freedom and security would be more readily obtainable if people would just stop bending and breaking the rules of societies. There are certain things you can and CANNOT do, despite the examples given being extreme or not. Just being born into any society with rules imposed upon its members makes the freedom issue moot and invalid. You are NOT free to do as you please, like it or not. You are restricted the day you are born, and this verification system isn't being used to strip an ADULTS freedom to view the content, it is taking away the ability for a MINOR to do something they are already NOT SUPPOSED TO DO.

if you can't grasp the basics of the issue on your own, i'll spell it out, the issue is not freedom to view a video, it is freedom to protect ones privacy. a) why should the gov know, or want to know, what videos people are watching and b) who said they could provide or verify the info outlined to private companies on demand?

reply to post by scientist


Have you ever applied for a job? Filed for unemployment? Have you ever signed up for a magazine or obtained a utility like electric, gas, or phone? Have you ever gotten cable? Ever signed up for the internet?

These and more all require that same information, so again, your argument is MOOT. Your not giving up anything you already have no choice but to give up.

The only other way I can think this would work out is to have a rating system for websites. Depending on the rating for the website like R or XXX, the web browser itself or a user account for a kid could automatically block against that rating.

Would that make you happier as a kid?

reply to post by scientist


WOW!!! The fine print you posted just blew me away!! I never put my real age on any websites, but I guess I'm not going to be able to do that soon. Thats really scary! Thanks for enlightening me on that one. Starred and flagged.

reply to post by KaginD


Unless your a kid, it's not scary lmfao ....

Originally posted by sirnex
Have you ever applied for a job? Filed for unemployment? Have you ever signed up for a magazine or obtained a utility like electric, gas, or phone? Have you ever gotten cable? Ever signed up for the internet?

yes to all of those.

These and more all require that same information, so again, your argument is MOOT. Your not giving up anything you already have no choice but to give up.

Well, you are right and wrong. You are right that these require the same information. You are wrong in saying that this makes my argument "MOOT."

This has nothing to do with my argument - because if I were to register for a magazine, utility or social service such as unemployment, it would all take place over secured connections (SSL sessions, etc.). They also all have privacy statements that outline how your information will be used, and whether or not it will be kept private. For social services, it is always private. The only time a company might share your information, would be magazines and other subscriptions, in which case it is important to read the fine print.

The only other way I can think this would work out is to have a rating system for websites. Depending on the rating for the website like R or XXX, the web browser itself or a user account for a kid could automatically block against that rating.

actually, that's exactly how existing filter systems already work. That's how they have been working since the 90s. It's called the ICRA (Internet Content Rating Association).

Would that make you happier as a kid?

Again, you continue with the name calling. I am not a kid, although funny you should mention that - when I was a kid, my parents used filters on me. Unfortunately for them, like other kids I was very skilled with computers, and in turn locked them out from adult sites. Want to know how? I filled in a "forgot password" form, which asked for username, date of birth, zipcode and full name.

Imagine that...

[edit on 1-9-2008 by scientist]

Originally posted by sirnex
Unless your a kid, it's not scary lmfao ....

if you think this is any scarier to a kid than clicking a button that says "yes, i am 21" then your an idiot, there's no other way to put it. they could use anybodies info they liked as long as it's correct, its so hard to find out your parents date of birth is it.

all this does is makes people identify themselves as having watched a particular video or visited a particular site. get a grip.

Originally posted by pieman
all this does is makes people identify themselves as having watched a particular video or visited a particular site. get a grip.

exactly, but not only that, it's very simple to setup a program that could monitor activity on that page (which is insecure, regular HTTP) and just record people's valid information all day. Literally getting thousands of peoples valid information without any effort at all.

Once you know someone's name, zipcode, date of birth, current location (ip address), time of access, etc. - you can use social engineering to victimize them in a many number of ways.

In fact, it wouldnt be hard to just setup a program that would hammer that website with hundreds of thousands of requests of random information, and return any results that came back positive. That way you could essentially hack into the database they are using, and compile a copy of it, for your own nefarious uses.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by scientist]

reply to post by pieman


This is again why kids don't make the rules, they sound so idiotic. Your willing to commit identity theft to gain access that your not allowed to gain access to already because of some new verification system? And I am the idiot?

You kids have a lot of growing up to do and a lot of learning to do. Seriously lmfao I love you guys, you made my day, thanks

reply to post by scientist


This is something already being done today by CRIMINALS, so the argument is MOOT. Can't you not argue effectively or make use of critical thinking?

Originally posted by sirnex
Your willing to commit identity theft to gain access that your not allowed to gain access to already because of some new verification system?

If a kid is trying to get onto an adult site (assuming without any parental supervision), do you really think that entering mommie's name and birthday will come across to them as a serious offense such as identity theft?

Again, please refrain from name calling. I understand your frustration in accepting that you were initially wrong, but are now starting to understand the importance of security. Sometimes it's easier to embrace the reality and move forward, as opposed to denial and resorting to these superficial tactics.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by scientist

 

This is something already being done today by CRIMINALS, so the argument is MOOT. Can't you not argue effectively or make use of critical thinking?

This is what I'm reading:

The fire is already burning, so who cares if we throw more gas into it?

[edit on 1-9-2008 by scientist]

reply to post by scientist

yes to all of those.

Then stop whining about it.

This has nothing to do with my argument - because if I were to register for a magazine, utility or social service such as unemployment, it would all take place over secured connections (SSL sessions, etc.). They also all have privacy statements that outline how your information will be used, and whether or not it will be kept private. For social services, it is always private. The only time a company might share your information, would be magazines and other subscriptions, in which case it is important to read the fine print.

Yes, because the mailman or neighbors can't steal your mail either right? Very secure... A thief by his very nature will steal your information regardless of the law, this is what makes them a criminal.

The fact that you have already given out that information makes it public domain, it isn't private and from the day of your birth, never has been private. This is where the mootness of the argument is coming from. This system is used to verify an age to the effect of keeping minors off adult themed content. Something they are already not allowed to do. Which makes the freedom argument again moot.

actually, that's exactly how existing filter systems already work. That's how they have been working since the 90s. It's called the ICRA (Internet Content Rating Association).

Not effective enough obviously then, but again it was just an idea. Perhaps then the only way is to have the software check against a preexisting database to verify the age.

Again, you continue with the name calling. I am not a kid, although funny you should mention that - when I was a kid, my parents used filters on me. Unfortunately for them, like other kids I was very skilled with computers, and in turn locked them out from adult sites. Want to know how? I filled in a "forgot password" form, which asked for username, date of birth, zipcode and full name.

Which is why this verification system would be great! Keeps kids from gaining access to the point where they can conduct such activities like this either in spite or for their own purposes. If a minor is using FALSE information (i.e, information that doesn't belong to them, not your name and age) then that makes them criminals of identity theft themselves. Great argument.

And to make a point, you are a liar and you are a child. I have filled out plenty of forgot password forms, including for adult websites. I'm sorry to inform you, but not once have I come across a single site that requires that much information for recovering a password.

You are a liar and an identity thief against your parents. Stay in school bud, you might learn something.

reply to post by scientist

If a kid is trying to get onto an adult site (assuming without any parental supervision), do you really think that entering mommie's name and birthday will come across to them as a serious offense such as identity theft?

Ah ... so your saying it's perfectly ok for a kid to use mommies information because its mommies information? Identity theft is identity theft. Again, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

There are kids out there who steal mommies credit card also, but that doesn't make it acceptable just because it's mommies credit card.

The fire is already burning, so who cares if we throw more gas into it?

Any technology that makes it slightly more difficult for people to gain access to something they were initially not allowed to have access to doesn't detract from the freedom of having access to something your not allowed to have access to. If you are not a child, then find an effective argument against the technology as it would apply to an adult and not to a child.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by sirnex]

reply to post by sirnex


I actually see your point quite well. I would have to say for all those who are whining about this being an invasion of your privacy, there IS a simple solution...

Listen up and maybe even take down notes:

If Y-O-U don't like it, then don't enter your information to view the content.

*gasps* IT really IS that simple