The Master Mason doesn't know squat!

reply to post by Manasseh


Oh, it gets better. See what you can find on Ben Franklin on the Hellfire club and do some research on William Blake as well. Thomas Jefferson was also an atheist. So much for having to be a man of faith.

reply to post by NIV21


Thomasa Jefferson wasn't a Mason, so your point there was moot. he worked with masons true, and supported Masonry, however he was not a member.
For that matter, neither was Blake.

As for As for Mr. Ben Franklin, yes he attended the Hellfire Club, though he wasn't a active member.
The hellfire club isn't as many people would believe it to be be. Their slogan Do as thou wilt was to be under God's law.
Regardless, Franklin himself was a lecher and his exploits are well known.

Originally posted by NIV21

Oh, it gets better. See what you can find on Ben Franklin on the Hellfire club and do some research on William Blake as well. Thomas Jefferson was also an atheist. So much for having to be a man of faith.

Neither Blake nor Jefferson were Masons. Jefferson was a Unitarian and Deist, not an atheist. It was Jefferson who (erroneously) wrote, "There is not a young man in the country today who will not die a Unitarian."

Franklin was a Mason, but was not a member of Dashwood's Hellfire Club. He seems to have attended the club once.

Reading through these replies one thing becomes apparent. Those who dislike masonry point to the cults connections with the occult while those who are masons refuse to accept this and say they are nothing more than a secret society of brothers. . . And that for me is the problem with the freemasons!
What type of person wants to belong to a cult like this? Is it the added thrill of the secrecy aspect or are there other benefits that we mere mortals don't know about? For me, just wanting to become a mason is bizarre! The thought of hopping around on one foot with a noose around my neck just so I can learn a secret hand shake and wear a apron is plain stupid. If you want to wear an apron become a chef!

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Reading through these replies one thing becomes apparent. Those who dislike masonry point to the cults connections with the occult while those who are masons refuse to accept this and say they are nothing more than a secret society of brothers. . .

No one denies freemasonry is the occult, what is denied - and what is based on the truth - is that the negative "OMG! OCCULT MEANS CULT/SATANISM/LUCIFER WORSHIP/WHATEVER" sentiment is not based on fact or reality. Occult simply means secret knowledge. That's it. It has nothing to do with the lies that people have attempted to make about freemasonry.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
And that for me is the problem with the freemasons!
What type of person wants to belong to a cult like this? Is it the added thrill of the secrecy aspect or are there other benefits that we mere mortals don't know about? For me, just wanting to become a mason is bizarre! The thought of hopping around on one foot with a noose around my neck just so I can learn a secret hand shake and wear a apron is plain stupid. If you want to wear an apron become a chef!

Your problem is you don't understand the difference between occult and cult. Freemasonry by definition not a cult - it fits no requirements of religion nor does it have a charismatic leader (required for a cult).

The secrecy is something people trump up but actual masons don't. Do you know why? Because it isn't really secret. I have never in all my life seen so much overreaction and sometimes flat out insanity over "secret" ritual which is SO secret you can order it from Amazon.com.

If you think all freemasonry is is "hopping around on one foot" (not true at all - you just making this up as you go along?) or anything else you mention then freemasonry is not for you. It is for those who seek to learn about symbolism and philosophy through the ritual.

These are the facts. Please research the facts, and don't believe lies because its what you want to think is true to begin with.

reply to post by LowLevelMason


But what makes a sane human being want to abase themselves and join the masons in the first place? Was your father or grandfather one? Perhaps then I could understand but as an outsider I cannot for the life of me see the appeal!
A friend of mine was once a freemason. He always says that its not a secret society but a society with secrets. . . My response is always, So What? If you want to run about wearing aprons with a noose around your neck slamming each others privates in the door go ahead and knock yourself out. Your right on one point though... Its definitely not for me. . . I have far too much going on to be bothered with an elitist cult like the freemasons.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But what makes a sane human being want to abase themselves and join the masons in the first place? Was your father or grandfather one? Perhaps then I could understand but as an outsider I cannot for the life of me see the appeal!

Great - if its not for you, don't join. No one has asked you to. Freemasonry is not for everyone. It is for those who hopefully wish to gain an appreciation for masonry's peculiar brand of esoteric philosophy. There is no "debasing" oneself - that is another myth. The ritual is conducted in a very dignified manner, and everything you see and experience has a direct relationship to the philosophy of masonry that is explained to you immediately afterward.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
A friend of mine was once a freemason. He always says that its not a secret society but a society with secrets. . . My response is always, So What? If you want to run about wearing aprons with a noose around your neck slamming each others privates in the door go ahead and knock yourself out. Your right on one point though... Its definitely not for me. . . I have far too much going on to be bothered with an elitist cult like the freemasons.

The "society with secrets" is the party line but no one seems to be able to tell me where the secrets are. Anyone can access them - you can even own a copy. Its in mass bookstores.

You, yet again, believe things about freemasonry that are not true. Maybe you enjoy playing with other men but there is no touching of "privates" in freemasonry.

Your agenda is also quite obvious. You are simply spouting lies you have been told. It is not a cult, and its certainly not elitist. You could easily find this out by doing some quick research, but refuse to do so because its more comforting to believe the lies you want to believe. Frankly it sounds like sour grapes to me.

reply to post by LowLevelMason

Your agenda is also quite obvious. You are simply spouting lies you have been told. It is not a cult, and its certainly not elitist. You could easily find this out by doing some quick research, but refuse to do so because its more comforting to believe the lies you want to believe. Frankly it sounds like sour grapes to me. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No agenda I promise you. I'm just puzzled to how a grown man could lower himself as to join this cult thats all. Your last comment is a bit of strange one. I have told you I don't like freemasonry, that I have absolutely no wish, not now or ever, to become one and that I feel those who do are simply not playing with a full deck. So how can this be sour grapes? Very strange comment. . .
"

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Yet again, you demonstrate you have an obvious agenda. All research and the facts display that freemasonry is not a cult, and you using the term to try to slander freemasonry and its members shows that you have no interest in the facts.

Exactly how is freemasonry a cult? I want you to tell me exactly who the charismatic leader is and how freemasonry is a religion. A cult is a religious movement with a charismatic leader. Put up the evidence or stop spreading your propaganda.

Frankly, I nor anyone else cares if you don't like freemasonry. You have demonstrated again and again your dislike is based on lies rather than the facts I couldn't possibly care less that you don't want to join. Do you know why? Because its a optional group people choose to join. No one forces anyone to join and if you don't want to join, then don't.

You have sour grapes because you keep using lies and debunked propaganda to tell us all again and again how you don't want to join when no one has asked you to and its a optional organization that anyone can join or leave at any time. It is sour grapes - your recent post confirms it - you probably got rejected and now are spending your time trolling masons telling them how much you don't want to join after you got blackballed. You are trying to justify to yourself why you got rejected by letting everyone know you didn't want to join anyways. Its like a 5 year old child who tries to play with another child and the other child rejects him. The 5 year old screams "I didn't want to play with you anyways!" and takes his marbles and goes home. That is you, and your posts confirm it.

[edit on 5-1-2009 by LowLevelMason]

reply to post by LowLevelMason


"You have sour grapes because you keep using lies and debunked propaganda to tell us all again and again how you don't want to join when no one has asked you to and its a optional organization that anyone can join or leave at any time. It is sour grapes - your recent post confirms it - you probably got rejected and now are spending your time trolling masons telling them how much you don't want to join after you got blackballed. "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh dear! A little masonic tantrum! Please stop as I'm running out of hankeys to wipe my tears away with. . . First you say anyone can join or leave as they see fit and then you drop the bombshell that the elitists can "Black Ball" someone they don't see as the right material. Curiouser and curiouser. . .

reply to post by Manasseh


Ahhhhhhhh, I just love all these urban legends on here. Entertaining when I need a chuckle or two. Sigh.

You obviously don't understand the usage of the term "Black ball" as it pertains to Freemasonry. It simply means to not be voted into the Lodge. Nothing more

reply to post by Mintwithahole.



Freemasonry is the opposite of elitism - no matter how bad you want to believe these lies it won't change the reality that you have clearly done no research and simply want to believe.

However, its clear why they rejected you. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen people rejected - all but one for a previous questionable criminal record. One person had a supreme attitude that shone through and through. Maybe that was you?

By the way - your total lack of knowledge about freemasonry made you put your foot in your mouth...again. As the above poster notes, blackballed simply means in a vote for a petition for a lodge you got rejected. Nothing more. It takes a extraordinary high bar for someone to get blackballed - so high that it almost never happens. In my many years in freemasonry I've probably voted on hundreds of candidates. Maybe 0.5% have been blackballed. But I can certainly see why they blackballed you!

[edit on 5-1-2009 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by On_The_Level
You obviously don't understand the usage of the term "Black ball" as it pertains to Freemasonry. It simply means to not be voted into the Lodge. Nothing more

You must be so proud in that degree in the bleeding obvious you have? That was exactly my point. In one sentence any one can join or leave as they see fit, in the next someone can actually blackball someone wanting to become a member. You can't have it both ways. Either anyone can join, which goes against there being any secrets involved, or, as my masonic friend above points out, if you aren't from the right stock or family background you can be black balled.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Reading through these replies one thing becomes apparent. Those who dislike masonry point to the cults connections with the occult while those who are masons refuse to accept this and say they are nothing more than a secret society of brothers. . . And that for me is the problem with the freemasons!
What type of person wants to belong to a cult like this? Is it the added thrill of the secrecy aspect or are there other benefits that we mere mortals don't know about? For me, just wanting to become a mason is bizarre! The thought of hopping around on one foot with a noose around my neck just so I can learn a secret hand shake and wear a apron is plain stupid. If you want to wear an apron become a chef!

So the basic point you were trying to convey is; Masonry is not for me, even though I do not believe what I have been told (or depsite what I have been told), and I therefore look down upon you for what you enjoy.

Well guess what? I like Man U and anyone who does not makes me question their football sanity.......

[edit on 5-1-2009 by AugustusMasonicus]

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


No amount of trying to take me out of context is going to change the facts here. I said "it is an optional organization IN THAT anyone can join or leave at any time." That is true. If you fit the land marks, you can join. Some people who seek to join, less than 1% in my experience, have so many red flags that they get rejected. I am sorry you got rejected, but with an attitutde like this you would create disharmony in the lodge. In most jurisdictions you can reapply in 6 months, but frankly if you don't fix that attitude problem the committee will recommend not accepting you again.

It is my fault for assuming you bothered to do the basic research before going on your anti-masonic rampage. I will not make that mistake again, I assure you.

So since you haven't done the research and I can't assume any knowledge level on your part, here is the entire thing with all the obvious clauses anyone who googled freemasonry would find:

Anyone can join if you are over 18 (21 in some jurisdictions), male, and believe in a supreme being. That is a significant portion of the planet. Even the boy scouts are more exclusive.

Anyone can leave for any time for any reason.

[edit on 5-1-2009 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

Freemasonry is the opposite of elitism - no matter how bad you want to believe these lies it won't change the reality that you have clearly done no research and simply want to believe.

However, its clear why they rejected you. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen people rejected - all but one for a previous questionable criminal record. One person had a supreme attitude that shone through and through. Maybe that was you?

By the way - your total lack of knowledge about freemasonry made you put your foot in your mouth...again. As the above poster notes, blackballed simply means in a vote for a petition for a lodge you got rejected. Nothing more.

[edit on 5-1-2009 by LowLevelMason]

I promise you, I've never wanted to belong to any cult. Not the freemasons, not even the moonies! Not even the scouts. . . And if you're black balled by a committee etc it means that one of that committee don't feel you're cut out to belong to that organisation. Therefore, not anybody can join. Does freemasonry burn off brain cells? The only one putting their foot in their mouth is you. Is that part of the insane initiation I wonder.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


And no one could care less. So don't join. The end. Constantly rambling and ranting and acting hysterical about it just further proves that you were blackballed and now are trying to justify your rejection.

When I was in college, I didn't like college fraternities. I didn't go on any online message board, seek out college fraternity members, and tell them over and over again how I didn't want to join and how they were all stupid. I just didn't join.

You seem to be incapable of doing that, which means there is far more to your rantings than you are letting on. All of your lies, propaganda, and obvious lack of knowledge about the subject prove otherwise.

[edit on 5-1-2009 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

And no one could care less. So don't join. The end. Constantly rambling and ranting and acting hysterical about it just further proves that you were blackballed and now are trying to justify your rejection.

When I was in college, I didn't like college fraternities. I didn't go on any online message board, seek out college fraternity members, and tell them over and over again how I didn't want to join and how they were all stupid. I just didn't join.

You seem to be incapable of doing that, which means there is far more to your rantings than you are letting on. All of your lies, propaganda, and obvious lack of knowledge about the subject prove otherwise.

[edit on 5-1-2009 by LowLevelMason]

My god you're touchy. Have I touched a nerve? Because I don't agree with you I'm hysterical!!! Perhaps with laughter at some of the nonsense you're spouting. I promise you I've never been black balled from anything in my life. I didn't even know you could be blackballed from the masonic cult until you were kind enough to tell me. I don't even have a problem with the masons, my grandfather was one, I just think in this day and age that the initiation ceremony, the silly little handshakes and signs, and the elitist attitudes are misplaced. Add secrecy into the mix and you can see why masons are either laughed at or feared. As for me, I think you're hilarious. Thank you for giving me the best laugh I've had in ages.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


To the contrary, I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. Your shenanigans are so obvious that they bring me a great deal of humor. It does seem like you are getting rather hysterical though - calm down, its just a fraternity.

I'm just going to keep typing versions of the same thing and watch and laugh as you continue to to reveal your agenda and how angry you are at your apparent rejection:

When I was a kid I didn't like the boy scouts. I just didn't want to join them. I did not go up to boy scouts and say over and over that they were dumb kids and that I really didn't want to join them. I just did not join.

You cannot do this, and it shows just how desperate you are for attention and wanting to belong. There are other groups, you know. Try the Elks, or the Rotary Club.

Thanks for giving me the best laugh I've had in months. Your hysterical and rambling rants are comedy gold. No amount of your spreading lies or propaganda is going to change reality.

[edit on 5-1-2009 by LowLevelMason]