I also fell victim to the propaganda

Amazingly after 7 years of believing that Al-qaeda was a terrorist organisation, I have just realised my ignorance.

The media works in mysteriouse ways in brainwashing individuals like me. I truely thought I was the few who hadn't been infected by false information and here I'm

Al Qaeda No. 2: We don't kill innocents

edition.cnn.com...

Now Al-Qaeda has clearly said that they don't kill innocent intentionaly, now just by saying that makes them a non-terroristic organisation because we can never know someones intentions. Forexample America drops a bomb on a village in Afghanistan and purely civilians die, we can't say what the intentions of American army was for dropping that bomb, they said it was an accident or wrong intelligence, what ever the excuse the world accepts it. I'm here to explain to you the excuse of Al-qaeda which you should accept if you accept the American excuse.

Firstly the Al-qaeda intellegence is very inaccurate compared to the American. Al-qaeda does not have a seperate intellegence agency like the American CIA, soooo they are in a huge disadvantage. If America with all it's might can make mistakes and kill civilians based on inaccurate intel than Al-qaeda also can. Why is it that the media claims Al-qaeda kills civilians intentionaly and call them terrorists when they know that their intel is very weak therefore deemed to kill civilians here and there (accidently).

Secondly Al-qaeda does not have guided missiles, jets with guided missiles or any prisice targeting weapons therefore are once again in a huge disadvantage compare to the US yet still the western force in Afghanistan has still managed to kill more than one quarter of all civilian deaths since the start of 2008.

Anti-government militants caused 422 of the recorded civilian casualties while government or foreign troops killed 255 people, according to the UN numbers. The cause of 21 deaths was unclear.

www.cbc.ca...

Now seeing the disadvantages of Al-qaeda you can justify the (accidental) deaths of civilians cause directly by the organisation, same goes for America. The name calling is basically propaganda, when I read history books I read that Indians who rose up against the British colonialist were also called terrorists I find that amazing yet no one learns from history.

Have fun learning the truth

Al Qaeda are actually not that bad. And Borat is the ambassador for Kazakhstan. I don't know if your blind or just stupid but Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization. They do kill innocents and you have to be blind not to see it. I'm sorry but I don't buy into the whole goverment is brainwashing us bull#.

[edit on 30-8-2008 by nastalgik]

What ever the truth, thousands of people are dying through the actions of either a terror group or a government.
The world has always been this way of murder for self gain.

To many people buy into propaganda of one sort or the next and it is almost always impossible to find out the truth and nothing but the truth.

Open your mind and DENY IGNORANCE.
If you are afraid of what you might learn then please accept ignorance and carry on like the good flock of sheep you are....
Safe in your own world where there is always an enemy to be the bad guy....

saying you don't kill innocents is not the same thing as saying you don't kill civilians. civilians may or may not be innocent. for example, from your source,

Al-Zawahiri defended a December attack in Algeria -- hospital sources said it killed 60 people -- because one of its targets was a United Nations building and the "United Nations is an enemy of Islam and Muslims," according to the transcript.

essentually, if you work for the UN you are not innocent, regardless of weather you are a military commander or a doctor working in a hospital, saving lives regardless of political leanings or religious beliefs.

propaganda isn't solely a western persuit.


[edit on 1-9-2008 by pieman]

Interesting post.

And now you see how the media is used to sell ideas brewed in the pentacon,

The American people is not so gullible anymore, they are starting to have doubts.

The freethinkers are winning, and the fat pigs don't have many cards left in their sleeve...well there is one.

Nuke.

Originally posted by pieman
saying you don't kill innocents is not the same thing as saying you don't kill civilians. civilians may or may not be innocent. for example, from your source,

Al-Zawahiri defended a December attack in Algeria -- hospital sources said it killed 60 people -- because one of its targets was a United Nations building and the "United Nations is an enemy of Islam and Muslims," according to the transcript.

essentually, if you work for the UN you are not innocent, regardless of weather you are a military commander or a doctor working in a hospital, saving lives regardless of political leanings or religious beliefs.

propaganda isn't solely a western persuit.


[edit on 1-9-2008 by pieman]

Now compare the attack in Algeria to the attack in Afghanistan(village). Al-Zawahiri defended the attack because it wasn't aimed at killing civilians but unfortunately it did. Question: Are the people who make the millitary dicisions, civilians? Is Presiden Bush a civilian? If you answer that question than you will see that the attack in Algeria wasn't any different than the attack in Afghanistan.

Ofcurse you are going to say anyone who is a non-combatant is a civilian but that statement is not true, Presiden Bush is as guilty as the soldiers who follow his command. Osama didn't himself attack anyone, get it? Osama was not on the plane attacking the twin towers, get it? Yet America is treating him as a combatant, although we know he is not in the battlefield shooting people. Now define to me civilian please, this will really help you open your mind(brainwashed mind if I may add).

essentually, if you work for the UN you are not innocent, regardless of weather you are a military commander or a doctor working in a hospital, saving lives regardless of political leanings or religious beliefs.

Has Al-Qaeda ever admitted in killing civilians intentionaly? The same goes for America they have never admitted. Ofcurse normal soldiers sometimes do crazy things without the permission of the commanders, guess what the same goes for Al-Qaeda members. Now you should give credit to Al-Qaeda since they don't have as good control over their network as America does yet their members don't go and rape a girl and kill their whole family.

[edit on 123030p://30b9 by Ownification]

Originally posted by nastalgik
Al Qaeda are actually not that bad. And Borat is the ambassador for Kazakhstan. I don't know if your blind or just stupid but Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization. They do kill innocents and you have to be blind not to see it. I'm sorry but I don't buy into the whole goverment is brainwashing us bull#.

[edit on 30-8-2008 by nastalgik]

I didn't tell you to buy anything dudee. Explain to me in professional manner why Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organisation, give it a try and have fun.

They do kill innocent people but accidently as I posted in huge paragraphs, they never admitted in killing innocent people intentionaly just like America never does. How am I blind, because I don't take the crap coming out of the propagandic media, if it is from Osama or America. Have fun proving your point

The propagandist will never address the core issue of why the so called Islamic terrorism is directed against the US or who does the US serve that causes the locals in those nations to hate the US. When politicians say that we are protecting our interests in the region just who's interests are these and what are those interests?

When the only way that people could obtain information was from 3 corporatist TV whorehouses and a few corporatist controlled propaganda rags it was easy to deceive the public. Now it is not so easy and the veil is being lifted on the entire sorted history of just who's interests we are protecting and to what end.

The people in these regions want to rule their own lands and have autonomous decision making rights for their own land and resources. The CIA to protect the profits of a few big global corporations helped to install puppet governments that would agree to the demands of these corporations. They are for the most part despotic rulers who have now become very powerful as a result of this intervention.

During the cold war they had the cover that they were protecting it from the communists. Perhaps there was some truth to this but they certainly took far more advantage than was needed to secure these resources for our access. Now that the communists are not such a threat they needed a new justification to protect these resources and they recruited their old Soviet era assets for the new task of whipping boy for the US war machine.

This is all well documented and if people take the time to read they could find this for themselves. People would rather turn on the idiot box and be spoon fed the daily pablum of the Ministry of Truth.

Look up "Fabled Enemies" on google video search. It is not as good as a well documented couple of books on the subject but for those used to being spoon fed their information it is fairly easy to digest. Not as easy as corporate brand propaganda but easy enough.

[edit on 9/3/2008 by UFOTECH]

Wow, this is a doozy of a thread. Where to start? Your basic premise

1) Al Qaeda is Not a terrorist organization and
2) they do not kill innocent civilians purposely
is

a) Wildly misguided

b) completely and willfully ignorant of facts.

You realize just how nice these guys are when in fact, Al Qaeda cells around the world, specifically in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Chechneya kill whomever they please, often in indescribable ways. Is rounding up so called traitors of the movement in Iraq and beheading them all, not killing innocent civilians purposely? Are car bombs not indescriminat weapons that often SPECIFICALLY target civillians? Idiology aside, the defense of a group of zealots who number in the 3% of all Muslims by posting their so called book of means, well, whatever. Read a newspaper. They are killing innocents, babies, children, old women and men routinely. Defending Al Qaeda, HA! You sir, need to re-up yourself on some edumacation.

ColoradoJens

[edit on 3-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

[edit on 3-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

reply to post by Ownification

cililian is a non-militery person, US president is commander in cheif of the army, he is not a civilian.

you open by saying al-quida do not intentionally kill civilians (as in non-militery people), i quickly prove your plainly wrong and then you contradict yourself by saying in fact, they do kill civilians but not innocent ones!!

you were right in the first place, live with it, they are terrorists.

I came back this morning and noticed this thread was more or less dead. At first I was surprised, due to the fact that this is THE enemy in our WAR on terror and the OP surmises some rediculous notions that they are not so bad - it got me pissed immediately and I figured a lot of other people would feel the same. Then I started to think, maybe more people are smarter than I sometimes give credit for and this is an example of what we as a society often should do when someone spouts utter garbage. Ignore them and let them slowly wither away in thier own pathetic prison of a life. Good Job fellow ATS members - I feel almost silly I came back. Again, "Al Qaeda doesn't hurt innocent civilians purposely" I just barfed into my mouth, chewed and swallowed. And it tasted better going down than that sentence. Glad to know you are a terrorist sympathiser. See you in Hell!

ColoradoJens

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
Wow, this is a doozy of a thread. Where to start? Your basic premise

1) Al Qaeda is Not a terrorist organization and
2) they do not kill innocent civilians purposely
is

a) Wildly misguided

b) completely and willfully ignorant of facts.

You realize just how nice these guys are when in fact, Al Qaeda cells around the world, specifically in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Chechneya kill whomever they please, often in indescribable ways. Is rounding up so called traitors of the movement in Iraq and beheading them all, not killing innocent civilians purposely? Are car bombs not indescriminat weapons that often SPECIFICALLY target civillians? Idiology aside, the defense of a group of zealots who number in the 3% of all Muslims by posting their so called book of means, well, whatever. Read a newspaper. They are killing innocents, babies, children, old women and men routinely. Defending Al Qaeda, HA! You sir, need to re-up yourself on some edumacation.

ColoradoJens

[edit on 3-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

[edit on 3-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

umm where to start

Are car bombs not indescriminat weapons that often SPECIFICALLY target civillians?

Question: when did Al-Qaeda admitted that they target civilians? All those bombs falling from the air is also a indescriminate weapons dno't you think. You telling me that the American bombs falling from the sky does not kill civilians? Well you answer that question.

They are killing innocents, babies, children, old women and men routinely.

And American planes, are doing exacly what? let's come back to reality

Al Qaeda cells around the world, specifically in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Chechneya kill whomever they please, often in indescribable ways.

This has already been answered on the first post, please read it
Read all my posts please and please do come back and defend your claims. Prove to me that Al-Qaeda is a terrorist organization, since you seem to think it's sooooooooo obviouse Bring me proof of Al-Qaeda admittedly killed civilians. I will eagerly waiting.

An organization which has no political affiliation and which is fundamentalist in nature and which carries out attacks on innocent civilians (again, is driving a car bomb into a CIVILIAN market not PURPOSEFULLY targeting civilians?) I mean, they are killing Iraqi's and now Afghans let alone over three thousand innocent civilians (or wait - your going to say working is EVIL) on 9/11 Which part of killing innocent civillians do you not understand? Are you denying this? Yes, AlJazeera has repeatedly covered the al-qaeda massacres across Iraq (now they are spreading their non-terroristic love in Afghanistan) Hmmm. A group that moves from county to country atttempting to destabilize and then institute a barbaric form of Dark Ages proportions is not a terrorist group. The creation of this group and many of our problems was our own CIA doings, of course. The qaed' has been blamed for things they didn't do - they have been used as stooges - but that doesn't excuse reality. What is going on is an armed struggle between ideaological zealots and the US - this thread regards the standards of the qaed', and not the US - that is a whole nother thing. This band of idiots is not liberating anyone, and they kill whoever they please to show how tough they are. They are thugs, once long ago in a land far away armed by the USA - but now we battle them. I am angry we are in Iraq. I am angry I witnessed first hand 9/11 and the unimaginable horror of thousands of people wiped off the map - many of whom I saw with my OWN GOD DAMNED EYES plummet to the earth from 80 stories up only to land feet from where I stood. They are terrorists, make no doubt about it. Now, lets start the thread about the theory that the US is the biggest terrorist out there and I will respond there, at least with some intelligence. Geeze, Al Qaeda not a terrorist organization? What are they, the Tabernacle Choir?

ColoradoJens

[edit on 4-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

[edit on 4-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
An organization which has no political affiliation and which is fundamentalist in nature and which carries out attacks on innocent civilians (again, is driving a car bomb into a CIVILIAN market not PURPOSEFULLY targeting civilians?)

Already been answered, a carbomb is no different than a droping bomb, wrong intel = civilian deaths simple calculation which your corrupt head can't handle. As I said previously, Al-qaeda's intell is very weak compared to the US, that alone explains the higher number of civilian deaths caused by the group. Heres an example of wrong intel in the hands of the American army:

Fourteen Iraqis were reported killed and five injured early yesterday morning after an American war plane obliterated a family house in the north of the country. The military said it was a mistake.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
I mean, they are killing Iraqi's and now Afghans let alone over three thousand innocent civilians (or wait - your going to say working is EVIL) on 9/11 Which part of killing innocent civillians do you not understand? Are you denying this?

And America is doing exacly what? OHH so in your world American bombs don't kill civilians? I don't understand your arguments. My point is that if the American army is not regarded as a terrorist organization by the international body than why should Al-qaeda be? That's exacly why in my first post I compared Al-qaeda to the US army, and I did take in to consideration the weaknesses and advantages of both organizations.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
Yes, AlJazeera has repeatedly covered the al-qaeda massacres across Iraq (now they are spreading their non-terroristic love in Afghanistan) Hmmm. A group that moves from county to country atttempting to destabilize and then institute a barbaric form of Dark Ages proportions is not a terrorist group.

And once again America is doing exacly what? America is not spreading their own ideology in your little world I guess and I guess America hasn't tried to destabilize countries and then institute a barbaric form of New Age proportions. An ideology is an ideology, one is no better than the other, a communist can sit down with a capitalist and argue all day long and yet come to no conclusion in to which idea is actually better, the same goes for Communism and Social Communism (Social Communism alows dictator ship).

Al-qaeda has never admited the fact that they want to spread their own ideology across the world but America has, isn't that true? Al-qaeda has basically proclaimed that America should stop backing dictators in the middle-east and leave that area as a whole and let the people of that area decide which ideology they want to follow.

Ron Paul's argument that the united states was attacked due to its historical intervention in the middle east

Ron Paul is a US senator just so you know.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
The creation of this group and many of our problems was our own CIA doings, of course. The qaed' has been blamed for things they didn't do - they have been used as stooges - but that doesn't excuse reality.

The group wasn't created by the CIA, they were merely supported to get rid of the Soviets in Afghanistan. Al-qaeda always hated America for its interventions which most of the time led to grave civil wars or worse genocide. Al-qaeda accepted the support of American dollar and weapons because it came through Pakistan, theyd didn't know it was from America (indirect support).

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
What is going on is an armed struggle between ideaological zealots and the US - this thread regards the standards of the qaed', and not the US - that is a whole nother thing. This band of idiots is not liberating anyone, and they kill whoever they please to show how tough they are.

And what exactly do you mean by liberating? And when the hell did they kill whoever they please to show how tough they are lol. Now you are making wild claims. My whole point have been very clear and you have not refuted anything. Yet

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
They are thugs, once long ago in a land far away armed by the USA - but now we battle them.

Don't just call people names, please explain why they are thugs? I can call you a dickhead, wouldn't you ask why I called you that? Since I haven't even seen your face

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
I am angry we are in Iraq. I am angry I witnessed first hand 9/11 and the unimaginable horror of thousands of people wiped off the map

Great! anger is not going to solve anything. When there is a problem you know what professionals do to solve it? They understand the problem first, you haven't done that. You have let your emotions take control of you. You cannot be of any kind of help being in this state of mind.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
- many of whom I saw with my OWN GOD DAMNED EYES plummet to the earth from 80 stories up only to land feet from where I stood. They are terrorists, make no doubt about it.

Have you seen the video of a man watching his son/daughter die in his arm? Israeli bullet wound. I wonder how that guy viewed Israel and America (Israel's sponsor) after the occurrence. Do you think he will feel the same way you do? Do you think that man will portray America and Israel as terrorist nations? Without even bothering to know the truth.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
Now, lets start the thread about the theory that the US is the biggest terrorist out there and I will respond there, at least with some intelligence. Geeze, Al Qaeda not a terrorist organization? What are they, the Tabernacle Choir?

Once again you seem to think this is sooo obviouse(Al-qaeda being a terrorist organization) and yet you weren't able to prove Al-qaeda's guilt at all unfortunately. Please try again

Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Ownification

 

cililian is a non-militery person, US president is commander in cheif of the army, he is not a civilian.

you open by saying al-quida do not intentionally kill civilians (as in non-militery people), i quickly prove your plainly wrong and then you contradict yourself by saying in fact, they do kill civilians but not innocent ones!!

you were right in the first place, live with it, they are terrorists.

OHH forgot about your sorry

UMM your are confusing yourself, innocent is a better word to use in this context because if one uses civilian than anyone who is not working for the military shouldn't be attacked, including Bush and Osama himself lol. Have you ever heard of a civilian government? Governments are as guilty as soldiers who do their dirty work. Try again

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
I came back this morning and noticed this thread was more or less dead. At first I was surprised, due to the fact that this is THE enemy in our WAR on terror and the OP surmises some rediculous notions that they are not so bad - it got me pissed immediately and I figured a lot of other people would feel the same. Then I started to think, maybe more people are smarter than I sometimes give credit for and this is an example of what we as a society often should do when someone spouts utter garbage. Ignore them and let them slowly wither away in thier own pathetic prison of a life.

Good Job fellow ATS members - I feel almost silly I came back. Again, "Al Qaeda doesn't hurt innocent civilians purposely" I just barfed into my mouth, chewed and swallowed. And it tasted better going down than that sentence. Glad to know you are a terrorist sympathiser. See you in Hell!

ColoradoJens

'People are afraid' works better in this case. Imagine, Al-qaeda sympathizer wow, that in the mind of an American is as bad as treason. Sooo it's obviouse that they are going to stay away from this thread no matter what their views are. If they weren't afraid than they would have posted an argument proving otherwise.

reply to post by '___'eed


Well they are going farther than that our government is resurrecting Al-qaida one more time.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm sorry but your logic is so all over the place...First off, let's get some facts straight. Suicide bombers sent into a marketplace to kill as many civilians to instill FEAR in the populace is terrorism. I mean, can you be that ignorant that you don't know what is happening in Iraq? It doesn't matter if al'sqaeda was manufactured by us, they were. It doesn't matter if they were stooges in 9/11 - they were - they are here now and they are not controlled by CIA or anyone else. Of couse we make them out to be much more than they are, I mean, hell, we are now in a never ending war against them - Nazi's got nothin on these dudes! - but to deny their daily atrocities in places like Iraq, wether we brought them there or not, is to be complicit with their acts. Now, as I have stated more than once in previous threads, if you want to start a second thread on why the USA is a terrorist organization, I'll check it out. But until then, either construct your argument properly or look up the words 'Al-Qaeda' 'Civillians' and 'murdered' on google. Cinnamon crispas!

ColoradoJens

[edit on 5-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

[edit on 5-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]
WOW I guess you didn't read anything I wrote(what a waste of time), you are not going to argue at all are you lol. All you are saying is that civilians die in the hands of Al-qaeda in Iraq therefore they are terrorists yet I provide evidence that the whole world with much better intel than Al-qaeda kill civilians, they are not terrorists?

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
I'm sorry but your logic is so all over the place...First off, let's get some facts straight. Suicide bombers sent into a marketplace to kill as many civilians to instill FEAR in the populace is terrorism.

Ahh I guess now you want to stick to Iraq because there is a civil war therefore you can mix the civil war with Al-qaeda. Ops caught red handed Nice try. Have you heard of the deathsquads ahhh maybe they are Al-qaeda too, who knows lol. Al-qaeda suicide bomber always aim for a target, maybe according to their false intel, an American caravan was meant to go accross the market. Bring me some sources please where Al-qaeda admitting on killing innocent civilians intentionally that's the important part of this whole discussion.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
but to deny their daily atrocities in places like Iraq, wether we brought them there or not, is to be complicit with their acts.

Ops when did I deny anything, I merely said they are not a terroristic organization based on so and so, based on simple mathmatic calculations if you are in to that lol. Maybe we should find the probability of how many innocent civilians America would kill if they had the same incredibly weak intel as Al-qaeda.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
Now, as I have stated more than once in previous threads, if you want to start a second thread on why the USA is a terrorist organization, I'll check it out. But until then, either construct your argument properly or look up the words 'Al-Qaeda' 'Civillians' and 'murdered' on google. Cinnamon crispas!.

Umm that's not necessary, America does not need to be a terroristic organization if Al-qaeda is not labled as one. It's simple logic but as I said before your corrupt head can't handle it. Both America and Al-qaeda are doing the same exact thing(if we exclude the disadvantages), and also saying the same exact things(propaganda). My point is simple yet you can't seem to prove me wrong yet again and again you are talking about civillian deaths which I have again and again explained.

Why is it that none of your post mentions about Al-qaedas weak intel? Why can't you take that in to consideration? Maybe because you know it effect everything when it comes to war.

Read something which Osama said based on his own words not based on FOX news: www.worldpress.org...

[edit on 113030p://30b9 by Ownification]

reply to post by Ownification


You are still falling for propaganda.

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians

The MP who made that revelation about "Al-Qaida" died a few days after publication.
Al-Qaida or mujahideen after the russian conflict where then put on the pay roll of a cia company MPRI, they are paid assasins who work to the CIA's agenda. They fought in Serbia. They are a tool for the US to achieve its long term goals.

Problem, reaction, solution, im afraid

Watch Zero.

www.youtube.com...