Liquid Water seeps at Phoenix site

As the saying goes..."Who you going to believe, NASA or my lying eyes"?

commonsensecentral.net...


Bob...

So... I take it you missed the big to do from NASA about finding Ice on Mars with these photos attached, eh?
They were excited, the tracks of the rover had apparently uncovered ice, but they couldn't be sure until the ran a analysis. Turned out to be ice water. Note the color, and the way it reflects the light, the crystal like nature of the water he's refering to in the pictures. if it was seeping, that soils more porous than a swamp, more of a sponge with small beads of ice like water all through it.

reply to post by rhw007


Thanks for sharing. I can't detect fluid water, but it sure looks as ice. And that is exactly what they have found. If it was really fluid I would have expected that the surrounding "sand" would be darker, mud even.

reply to post by rhw007


It's also kind of difficult for water to flow when the daytime high temperature is -27c.

But you never know. They're probably lying about that.

reply to post by rhw007


Presumably you have some point to be made, proabably along the lines of "NASA lies again" etc. I'm just trying to work out the specifics. Perhaps you could give us a hand?

Way to go Bob!! NIce to see ya here.

"There's water in that there dirt!!"

Besides, just look at the archived images of Spirit and Opportunity and note the way the trials from the rovers weight. The rovers are not running on barren dry ground!!!

Cheers!!!

there is liquid water on mars, or rather IN mars; its underground. Sometimes it bursts through the frozen walls of impact craters, causing huge cascades of rushing water. NASA says as much.

It is evidenced by changing terrain they observe over time. That fact also probably explains weird tracks and trails behind rocks and boulders.

Here is a link to the Mars Global Surveyor (Malin Space Science Systems) images of "Seeps" from underground water. These were released back in June of 2000 btw.

Mars Global Surveyor MOC images of "water seeps"

"There's water in that there dirt!!"

Cheers!!!

Originally posted by reject
Sometimes it bursts through the frozen walls of impact craters, causing huge cascades of rushing water. NASA says as much.

NASA said no such thing. They found what might be trickles of water at best, salt flows at worst. But in no case did they find evidence of large amounts of gushing water bursting in "huge cascades" - that's a total exaggeration.

These are some pretty large "trickles" dont you agree?!!!





Cheers!!!!

[edit on 27-8-2008 by RFBurns]

reply to post by RFBurns


Those appear to be talus slopes. Formed by landslides, not water.

1. The darker material in the slide area matches the area from which the slide originated.
   
   
2. There is a buildup of material on the steep part of the slope. If this were water runoff the "delta" would be at the bottom of the slope, running into the flats.
   

Scree Slope

Maybe you should have referenced this site:

www.nasa.gov...

Or this site from Dr Mikey who had to be "dragged kicking and screaming" as I recall the press conference with him and edgett.

www.jpl.nasa.gov...

And the "point" was that instead of "confirming" this WAS water/ice with NO or LOW "salts" they choose NOT to sample it when it wasn't there the SOLs before.



Bob...

Originally posted by rhw007

And the "point" was that instead of "confirming" this WAS water/ice with NO or LOW "salts" they choose NOT to sample it when it wasn't there the SOLs before.

Still missing your point.

1. How could they sample something that "wasn't there"?
   
2. They did sample, just as they planned to, and found...water.
   
3. The daytime temperatures are around -25c. How can there be liquid water at this site?
   

I think the pictures from the OP are not in the correct order. NASA firats had Phoenix uncover ther layer of water ice (the white stuff). Some scientists thought it could be salt, so they let the white stuf sit in the sun, Slowly, the white stuff disappeared (the other pictures) indicating the white stuf must indeed be ice, which was sublimating (someting like evaporating) into the Martian astmosphere, that's why it is disappearing from those other pictures. Salt would not sublimate away like that, so it must be water-ice.

NASA has openly CONFIRMED that they found water-ice at ther Phoenix site -- they aren't hiding that fact. In fact they landed where they did because they thought water ice existed there, and noe there is eveidence that it does.

And the pictures showing the sublimating material seems to prove it is ice (not salt and no liquid water).

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


That is easy to see.

Sol 86


Sol 87, morning

Sol 87, afternoon


The order is correct, what is missing is the other photo before these.

Sol 84, morning.

Originally posted by Phage

Originally posted by rhw007

And the "point" was that instead of "confirming" this WAS water/ice with NO or LOW "salts" they choose NOT to sample it when it wasn't there the SOLs before.

Still missing your point.

1. How could they sample something that "wasn't there"?
   
2. They did sample, just as they planned to, and found...water.
   
3. The daytime temperatures are around -25c. How can there be liquid water at this site?
   

He's basically saying NASA is lying about the daily temperature on Mars.

It's the SURFACE temperature I am speaking about. The Phoenix platforma is at least 1.1 meters above the ground and the MAST is another 1.1 meters tall.

www.space.gc.ca...

www.redorbit.com...

What is the actual full size of the Phoenix lander/spacecraft? The Phoenix lander is about 18 feet (5.5 meters) long with the solar panels deployed. The science deck by itself is about 5 feet (1.5 meters) in diameter. From the ground to the top of the MET mast, the lander measures about 7 feet (2.2 meters) tall.

I remember the Pathfinder meterological station had the SAME "issues" and reported the following at a different latitude BUT the "air" was below freezing at the mast:

July 31, 1997 Pathfinder Mission Statement PR temp 70 deg F!!!
old one no longer works- mars.jpl.nasa.gov...
new working one:
marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov...

Wind speeds have been increasing with altitude, reported Dr. Robert Sullivan of Arizona State University. And temperatures will vary dramatically with elevation. When ground temperatures are 16 to 21 degrees Celsius (60 to 70 degrees Fahrenheit), they can drop to minus 23 to 27 degrees Celsius (minus 10 to minus 15 degrees Fahrenheit) just five and a-half feet above the ground.

Mer temperature 95 degree farenheit IN SHADE !!!
marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov...

During their exploration of Mars, the rovers have recorded temperatures ranging from midday highs of about 35 degrees C. (95 degrees F.) in spring and summer to nighttime lows of about minus 110 degrees C. (minus 166 degrees F.) in winter.

rhw:
Now people are ASSUMING that the temperature of the AIR several meters ABOVE the ground is IN FACT the GROUND temperature when TWO missions have PROVEN otherwise !!!

As for the ice on Sol 84...it likely sublimated away so on SOl 86 there was none...

It is hypothesied that MORE "liquid" leaked into "cubbard" over the intervening time and re-filled the hole as the SUN's constant beating on the SURFACE and that infrared heat transfered itself underground a tiny amount and that since ICE is indeed just below the surface...this melting and re-forming ice in the hole...continues as a cycle. Fills in...wind shift...sublimates or evaporates...and is re-filled with another shift and more direct sunlight.

ANOTHER scoop at the end of the process with FRESH "ice" might indicate that there is NO SALTS in that new ice. They chose NOT to do this. That is another point to the thread.

Bob...


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[edit on 29-8-2008 by Jbird]

Guess you beat me to it rhw007. I always remembered from science how mars could have temperatures up to 70 degrees F. So I looked it up and they seem to be a tad higher than that at the most extreme.

Temperature: The lowest surface temperature on Mars is –190° F (–123° C), while the hottest temperature is 90° F (32° C).

Source

Cheers

reply to post by rhw007


What I don't understand is why the water would "wait" for all the ice to disappear before refiling that area, and why the area has more or less the same size of the first.

If that was on Earth, as soon as the water reached the surface and froze (what I suppose happens every night on Mars, even at ground temperature) the water bellow could not pass through the ice. In the same way, as soon as the ice disappears the water should refill the area.

But this is Mars, so things may (and most probably are) different in some ways.

PS: one possibility is that the reason for the water to reappear is not a constant action but a periodic action, with a period longer than the time that it takes for the water to appear, freeze and evaporate.

I agree that there IS a cycle of "seepage"...and ICE does NOT 'seep'...and then the liquid water re-freezes at some point when it has reached the capacity of the hole to hold it. Somewhere down there I...from this RECURRING phenomenon...there MUST be a "luquid water table".

Which sort of supports the initial results of the "clumpiness" of soild when first scooped and wouldn't "un-clump" into the science hoppers.

I think NASA may have to re-think their notes on the image I requested in the Fall 2007 NASA Quest Challenge of the Cydonia Smoker.

hirise.lpl.arizona.edu...

Of note in this image is the interesting pitted and patterned ground.
hirise.lpl.arizona.edu...
This pitting may have resulted from the sublimation of interstitial ice. (Sublimation is a process by which a solid form turns directly to a gas.) Patterned ground is common throughout the northern mid-latitude plains.

This area shows HIGH is hydrogen and thus inferred water...and there may be this continuous process going on at mid-latitudes where the "water table" may be just as close to the surface as the Phoenix site.

If they grant my Spring 2008 Mars Quest Challenge for a re-imaging of this target, only a tiny best west...we "might" see different "patterns" on the ground...thus showing and PROVING that this process is on going at mid latitudes also.

Bob...