Difference between liberal and conservative

I am no fan of slavery,it is part of our past...not future.
I am also speaking of able body people. Of course disabled and ederly people should havethere needs met. I however will not need asstiance when I am older.(hopefully) I like to think ahead.
And I do treasure my guns. Guess who is going to be providing and protecting our food, and shelter if the # hits the fan. ME. Guees who is going to hungry...YOU. Guns are still important. I live in CA,one big earthquake,and stores,houses,banks everything is gone. But I will still be able to provide for my family...not standing in line hoping someone will give me food.

Sorry, I have no repect for people who stand around their mailbox every month waiting for their money. That they did not earn in the 1st place. I have yet to meet a conservitive that does that. But I know plenty if liberals that do.

The poor and hungry have always been around, it is a product of life and can not be eliminated.

The problem is, is that these problems used to be handled by private orginizations, community, and churches. And while that is somewhat still true, I believe the distruction of the family (and the subiquent distruction of community) has left the burden on the federal government.

Throwing money at a problem is not a way to solve anything. This is obvious in that more and more money is put into the education system and no net difference is made.

There are always problems when it comes to the federal government getting involved in social problems which are as diverse as we are as people and as different through the countless areas in this country.

Social problem solving needs to be moved from the federal level, to a more cost effective and area focused low level government function.

To force people to pay high taxes to bloated federal programs that are riddled with corruption and inefficiency is unjust to everyone working hard to provide for their families.

I would rather promote commuity and low level involvement than to pay $50 for every $1(fictional figure) actually used properly by the federal government.

Now, now Thorfinn

This nation was also founded by a group of slave owners who said all men are created equal

When you say founded, I assume you mean most of the people who wrote the Constitution? The country was actually carved out of a English colony by George Washington's continental Army and irregular forces (those pesky gun owners) during the War of Independence. George could have taken over the whole shebang but, instead relinquished power to the Congress. This is overlooked by many; this was a HUGE deal at the time. A man who actually gave up the power to rule a country...
All throughout history, slavery and serfdom was very common. The Old Testament speaks of it, Romans were famous for it; doesn't make owning people right, just pointing out the historical context. It is unfair to take ideals that are considered normal now and judge people from 200+ years ago with them.
If you read some of their writings you will see that they were sober, learned men. Actually, I think the founding fathers of this country were Great men; calling them great is like calling Jordan a great basketball player, but it gets the point across.

What about the disabled? The elderly? Your comments above are what make me hate conservatives

I consider myself and many I know; to be "Conservative" all of them, including myself, care about the disabled and the elderly. I don't know exactly what you mean by it.
To use the few people who invested all their 401K money into their own company and then screamed about losing their money, as somehow, relating to some conservative coldness also, seems to be stretching it. If you chose to invest your money into a 401k, it behooves you to understand some basics of investing, company stock is almost always considered to be a risky choice.. If you are foolish with your investments it is not anyone's fault, but your own. I understand this is liberal sentiment, blame others for your own errors but, I don't get it. The people at the top of Enron should be thrown in jail; investors should be paid from the liquidation of assets. This is what should happen. If this doesn't happen it does not mean conservatives are at fault. The two don't go together. How do you know Enron people were conservative? Maybe they were flaming liberals. They gave equally to both political parties; more to whoever was likely to win.

Which implemented conservative policy or law, is bad in your eyes?

Variable

Since neither side is willing to look at their own to see how ludicrous each is.

Yes, I have seen conservatives beg for handouts. Yes, the guntoters won our independence. However, the gun toters today hurt our indepence. They usually end up killing some innocent people. We do have the army, national guard, etc today to protect our nation.

Yes, the conservatives DO want the federal government to legislate our morality.

Money to local levels? In theory a great concept.

I live in one of the highest per capita counties in the country. I affectionatly call it "lala land". These people have no idea what the average American goes through to make ends meet. They treat store clerks like crapola, and don't think twice about it. I consider them more white trash than the average.

The term "tree hugger" is really ridiculous. Those trees provide oxygen. They also provide many cures for various illnesses. Cut down all the trees and find out how long the human race will endure.

OH YES, FOR THE GENTELMAN WHO STATED THAT HE HAS LOOKED FOR THE FUTURE AND THE GOVERNMENT WILL NEVER PROVIDE FOR HIM-DON'T COUNT YOUR CHICKENS BEFORE THEY HATCH. You or a member of your family is one serious illness or accident away from a helluva lot of trouble.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
Being conservative is the way to be? Thomas, you poor human...

Thorfin, this poor human posted that as it related to Ben Franklin, out of jest.

But now that you mention it, don't "poor human" me, as this nation was made strong by two documents, the constitution and the KJV. That is what I stand upon, and you don't get more conservative than that. Conservatism is the basics of this nation, not the perversion that has been spun against society for the last 50 years or so.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

Originally posted by nyeff
Well they carried guns,most of them built there own homes,bought or hunted there own food.

Yeah. When you NEEDED guns to hunt for your food. Guns aren't really a necessity when it comes to food in this country. And we didn't exactly have housing contractors back in the day as we do now.

Welfare....blah....get rid of it. It is such an abused system. Stand on your two feet,get a job, and stop pissing and moaning about not having anything. I work 2 jobs. Or 60+ hours a week. Which gives me the right,too be pissed of a freeloaders. I refuse to suck off the system,beg for money,or whine about anything. Its called being a man.

What about the disabled? The elderly? Your comments above are what make me hate conservatives. Your narrow-mindedness and utter lack of concern for anyone but yourself.

See. Here you assume that those that do not have the basic needs such as a house, job and so on are somehow bumming off the system, when you refuse to look at MANY of the factors involved.

Have you ever seen a person 70+ years of age homeless and in need of help because thier vitality has been utterly spent at a job for 20-30 years, only to be downsized for the sake of an executives paycheck.

What of those on the verge of retirement that lost all of their 401(k) savings when Enron came crashing down?

What of those that have worked their entire lives and fall prey to a disabling disease or injury?

Screw them because you have two jobs and you don't think anyone deserves help.

Yeah,slaves were used for a period of time in America. They were also used by every other country and culture at some point in time. Its funny how the issue of slavery is only brought by Americans. Guess we have it so good,that we can take the time to reflect on the past.
Of course I prefer to reflect in my own house,that we(wife and myself) pay for. Not on a street corner wondering why nobody will give me a house.

Who cares if they were used by other countries. We are talking about this country. What other past should we reflect upon than our own? Ya know that saying, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. You want a slavery repeat? Does slavery sound like a good idea to you?...


[Edited on 18-3-2004 by Thorfinn Skullsplitter]

Okay, Thorfin, you asked for clarification and enlightenment, now open your polluted brain and prepare for the cleansing of truth!

Guns are as important today as they were then. The same reason for gun ownership according to the 2nd amendment still exists; to keep the government in check. If you do not own a gun, you are the weak link and should be ashamed of yourself. I have already made this plain and clear in other threads. Go, read and learn.

The weak, the disabled, the elderly, they should all be taken care of at the local government and the comunity level. That is where one can ensure the money and aid goes to the deserving, not through a federal welfare program. Conservatism does not leave the truly needy by the road, as the liberal machine might have you believe, but it would put people back to work and would take away liberal votes. Your brainwashing does not make conservatism hateful or evil. Take care of your own friends and family and I'll take care of mine. You don't pamper your lazy and I won't pamper mine. If they resort to breaking into your home, go back to the first paragraph of my sermon. If you are empty handed, then you, the weak link, better be good with knives or fists.

As far as Enron, in regard to liberal - v - conservatism, remember that the scandal was ocurring under a democratic watch, but caught during a republican watch (I did not say conservative on purpose).
Again, families and comunities should take care of their own. See, that is how it used to be, when the nation was much stronger, socially speaking. Blame the system built by liberals for the mess we are in now. But look, if you want to admit that you care nothing for your familiy members and other comunity members and would rather the rest of the nation take care of them for you, just say so. Honesty I can deal with.

Slavery was not seen as it is now, in the Western world. Back then, things were much different, so don't try and judge their lack of understanding with today's understanding. By the way, you want slavery? I'll give you slavery, how about working well into a year in order to pay one's taxes. THAT, my friend, is slavery, and it is because of a government out of control, obese with unconstitutional programs and greedy politicians, most greedy of which are the ones who have the least clue about real work. Can you guess who they are? You know, the ones who actually think that the world owes them a meal, the ones who think the workers' money is their money? You know, the kind who gets three scratches and a ticket out of Vietnam in 1/3 the time it took my father, and the kind who makes there millions by marrying wealthy widow women? Come on, guess what category such a person might fall in.

"Modern Liberals like imported beer (they add lime), but most prefer white wine or foreign water in a bottle. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done."

Ahh dupa Pan Crown!

A true socialist vodka loving comrade could out-drink any cowardly weak-beer drinking conservative !
Tree hugging hippies don't count...

Any man who says he can outdrink a Pole or Russian is truly a fool!

...or will be after he kills that many brain cells trying! After all, just look at your typical Rooskie!

Liberal, conservative, you name it, just follow the money. Add it up, either banner means more debt, more wars, more money for the elite. Less and less proceeds from your efforts. They print it up, and we the sheeple have to pay them back. They are mostly European bankers, who continue in their vision of the future that one dead man who incorporated total ownership into immortality, would rule from the coffin by the machines he used to own.

Financial interlocutions and commodities, have perpetuated misery and death by an old formula dating at least back to the 100 years war. Venetian bankers instigated conflicts through their agents, and laughed all the way to the bank while elite stooge King after another of the same borrowed vast amounts of money to get nothing in the end even for themselves and less than nothing for their people.

Look at the 20th century, liberals and conservatives have been spendthrifts. They both trade upon war, misery, death and destruction. Occasionally they do something good like the space program or food stamps, but it is a drop in the bucket. Even those things act for the self interest of the elite. Vanquishing enemies, they remain invisible, as ownership continues conglomerting an empire of media. Bizarre ideas convey propaganda and confusion over irrelevant issues for liberals, such as gay rights, while continued trends destroy the middle class. Either political party has only one concern, putting us into massive debt, and cutting taxes on the very wealthy that obtain the most corporate welfare. Occasionally they raise taxes on the "rich," who are only stupid enough not to get a tax lawyer and be in the black massively with the government.

Right vs. left? Balderdash, the only party worth having is the "financial reform party," or call it the "Financial fairness party."

Like I said, "follow the money." Maybe "just follow the Grace Commission," and eliminate the "fraud, waste, and abuse," that hovers around the "liberal-conservative," pharse.

[Edited on 18-3-2004 by SkipShipman]

However, the gun toters today hurt our indepence. They usually end up killing some innocent people. We do have the army, national guard, etc today to protect our nation.

The second amendment was made specifically to enable the people to protect itself from its' own government not from foreigners. This country was founded on a revolution remember? The saw about having a gun in your house, you are more likely to kill someone in your home than protect yourself with it was a completely bogus statistic made up during the hay day of the push to disarm the People. If you want to save children from harm you should ban swimming pools. They kill FAR more children than do accidental gun deaths; or ban bicycles, they are just as bad. Sarah Brady's crowd put gang related shootings in all their gun death numbers. There is only one reason to want to disarm the People, to control them. What other Right's are superfluous?

The term "tree hugger" is really ridiculous. Those trees provide oxygen. They also provide many cures for various illnesses. Cut down all the trees and find out how long the human race will endure.

There are more trees now than at the founding of the nation. Most of the oxygen on this planet comes from the ocean or am I wrong?
I'm pretty sure the medical uses of the Maple, Oak, Poplar and other assorted domestics are known. However, if a cure is still to be found in them, rest assured we have plenty. Trees will never be all cut down; they are a valuable renewable resource. That's one of the reasons why there are more now than ever. That and the fact that, slash and burn farming is a thing of the past and our farms are more productive.

Variable

I would love to give ya'll a response, but I have to go to work here soon. So it will have to wait 'til tomorrow.

Any man who says he can outdrink a Pole or Russian is truly a fool!

Come down South Buddy......LOL

They dont make it strong enough so we make it ourselves

What we dont drink can be used to run our bikes

However, the gun toters today hurt our indepence. They usually end up killing some innocent people. We do have the army, national guard, etc today to protect our nation.

Anyone that believes this tripe deserves to have his freedom taken. I have been raised around guns and my independence is not harmed in the least by my neighbor owning a gun.

Like I said, "follow the money." Maybe "just follow the Grace Commission," and eliminate the "fraud, waste, and abuse," that hovers around the "liberal-conservative," pharse.

You need excel to view this, it's a break down of taxes and income, pretty useful. I always wonder which one is "middle" class. Now you can tell who pays what and not rely on hearsay.

www.irs.ustreas.gov...



Variable

Originally posted by Variable

However, the gun toters today hurt our indepence. They usually end up killing some innocent people. We do have the army, national guard, etc today to protect our nation.

The second amendment was made specifically to enable the people to protect itself from its' own government not from foreigners. This country was founded on a revolution remember? The saw about having a gun in your house, you are more likely to kill someone in your home than protect yourself with it was a completely bogus statistic made up during the hay day of the push to disarm the People. If you want to save children from harm you should ban swimming pools. They kill FAR more children than do accidental gun deaths; or ban bicycles, they are just as bad. Sarah Brady's crowd put gang related shootings in all their gun death numbers. There is only one reason to want to disarm the People, to control them. What other Right's are superfluous?

The term "tree hugger" is really ridiculous. Those trees provide oxygen. They also provide many cures for various illnesses. Cut down all the trees and find out how long the human race will endure.

There are more trees now than at the founding of the nation. Most of the oxygen on this planet comes from the ocean or am I wrong?
I'm pretty sure the medical uses of the Maple, Oak, Poplar and other assorted domestics are known. However, if a cure is still to be found in them, rest assured we have plenty. Trees will never be all cut down; they are a valuable renewable resource. That's one of the reasons why there are more now than ever. That and the fact that, slash and burn farming is a thing of the past and our farms are more productive.

Variable

There are NOT more trees now then when our nation was discovered or whatever. That is a totally false pretense being pushed by the people that like to cut them down.

There are more protected forests today than ever before. However, the unprotected land continues to be chopped at an alarming rate.

Poplars, oaks, maples, etc? When cut down they are replaced by the pine. Years down the road you will be able to recognize the fall color-green.

There are NOT more trees now then when our nation was discovered or whatever. That is a totally false pretense being pushed by the people that like to cut them down.

Well I disagree with you, I think a lot of the Enviro-leftist movement is based on junk science; much of what we hear on the enviroment is based on emotions and "common sense." I have a web site for you to look at, it's a long read but, it's very informative. The man is far to the left politically; he is intelligent and honest and his opinions come from experience and study.


www.greenspirit.com...

Variable

Originally posted by Amuk

Any man who says he can outdrink a Pole or Russian is truly a fool!

Come down South Buddy......LOL

They dont make it strong enough so we make it ourselves

What we dont drink can be used to run our bikes

It has been scientificly proven that people of the slavic race have the ability to burn alcohol much faster than anyone else. I believe it was an average of 33% percent faster but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

We also have Spiritus, 99% alcohol. Drinking it straight is not recommended, but possible

Like I said before, any man who says he can outdrink a Russain or a Pole is a fool!

When you say founded, I assume you mean most of the people who wrote the Constitution? The country was actually carved out of a English colony by George Washington's continental Army and irregular forces (those pesky gun owners) during the War of Independence. George could have taken over the whole shebang but, instead relinquished power to the Congress. This is overlooked by many; this was a HUGE deal at the time. A man who actually gave up the power to rule a country...
All throughout history, slavery and serfdom was very common. The Old Testament speaks of it, Romans were famous for it; doesn't make owning people right, just pointing out the historical context. It is unfair to take ideals that are considered normal now and judge people from 200+ years ago with them.
If you read some of their writings you will see that they were sober, learned men. Actually, I think the founding fathers of this country were Great men; calling them great is like calling Jordan a great basketball player, but it gets the point across.

Well, you may not know what I mean because my post was in response to someone else. however...

No. I mean the founding fathers of this country. Ok. When you preach that men are to be equal and you own slaves. What is that? Anyone guess? Plus suggesting that your class be the only ones allowed to vote. So I guess women and blacks were out of the question back then, huh?

They may have been learned men, but they were still men of their time and thus flawed. And that made them hypocrites unfortunately.

I consider myself and many I know; to be "Conservative" all of them, including myself, care about the disabled and the elderly. I don't know exactly what you mean by it.
To use the few people who invested all their 401K money into their own company and then screamed about losing their money, as somehow, relating to some conservative coldness also, seems to be stretching it. If you chose to invest your money into a 401k, it behooves you to understand some basics of investing, company stock is almost always considered to be a risky choice.. If you are foolish with your investments it is not anyone's fault, but your own. I understand this is liberal sentiment, blame others for your own errors but, I don't get it. The people at the top of Enron should be thrown in jail; investors should be paid from the liquidation of assets. This is what should happen. If this doesn't happen it does not mean conservatives are at fault. The two don't go together. How do you know Enron people were conservative? Maybe they were flaming liberals. They gave equally to both political parties; more to whoever was likely to win.

Which implemented conservative policy or law, is bad in your eyes?

Well. Many of your "conservative" kin in offical positions have often showed their lack of compassion for the disabled and the elderly. Why don't you look at your current conservative friends in the White House. Ya know the ones that cut VA benefits to vets. The ones that have sent our armed forces to Iraq without the supplies they need to fight a meaningless war. The ones that are draining this country of money that will leave our elderly and disabled uncared for. I am sure you know the people I am speaking of.

There is a difference between losing your money in the market and having it taken from you and being lied to about the value of the stock. So are you blaming the many people that were robbed of their retirement money for being incompitent? Because the executives at Enron lied to their employees about stock worth. That is how they were robbed. But I can agree that BOTH parties are equally corrupt...

Thorfin, this poor human posted that as it related to Ben Franklin, out of jest.

But now that you mention it, don't "poor human" me, as this nation was made strong by two documents, the constitution and the KJV. That is what I stand upon, and you don't get more conservative than that. Conservatism is the basics of this nation, not the perversion that has been spun against society for the last 50 years or so.

If anything. The KJV has weakened not only this country, but humanity itself. But we could go round and round and round about that arguement forever.

Okay, Thorfin, you asked for clarification and enlightenment, now open your polluted brain and prepare for the cleansing of truth!

Guns are as important today as they were then. The same reason for gun ownership according to the 2nd amendment still exists; to keep the government in check. If you do not own a gun, you are the weak link and should be ashamed of yourself. I have already made this plain and clear in other threads. Go, read and learn.

No. Guns are not as important today as they were back then. Back then, you needed your gun to get your food. Today, you don't need to. You can if you want, which is fine. But most "hunters" kill for the fun of it.

And that Amendment when it was written didn't take into account the power that would become to US military now did it? Go ahead and try to start an armed, government resistance. Guess what will happen. You will be arrested and branded a conspiracy-theorist, pyscho.

Heh. I am a weak link because I don't own a gun? I would like to be able to have a gun. But ya know. Some of us are stuck paying #in' bills and don't have money to set aside for a bang-bang. Rent or gun, gee, lemmie think.....I choose rent.

You get off your high horse and take more into account than your narrow view of the world. You really come off as being immature sometimes, Thomas...

The weak, the disabled, the elderly, they should all be taken care of at the local government and the comunity level. That is where one can ensure the money and aid goes to the deserving, not through a federal welfare program. Conservatism does not leave the truly needy by the road, as the liberal machine might have you believe, but it would put people back to work and would take away liberal votes. Your brainwashing does not make conservatism hateful or evil.

Unfortunately. Conservative people in office made it hateful and evil. You can blame them for that. But why bother trying to tell you this. You think some of the most hateful and evil conservatives are brilliant.

By the way Thomas. I am not a liberal, so please. Drop the redundant brainwashing comments and spout them at someone who would care.

Take care of your own friends and family and I'll take care of mine. You don't pamper your lazy and I won't pamper mine. If they resort to breaking into your home, go back to the first paragraph of my sermon. If you are empty handed, then you, the weak link, better be good with knives or fists.

I don't pamper the lazy or worthless in my family. That's why I don't talk to most of them.

Furthermore. Someone who believes that christianity is the solution to this countries problems is calling me the weak link? I'll take that as a compliment...

As far as Enron, in regard to liberal - v - conservatism, remember that the scandal was ocurring under a democratic watch, but caught during a republican watch (I did not say conservative on purpose).

What does the president at the time have to do with anything? Was Clinton at Enron's board meetings? Was he friends with the accountants? That's like me saying, "Remember that when Martha Stewart went to jail, it was under Republican watch..." Does it mean anything? Hell no...

Again, families and comunities should take care of their own. See, that is how it used to be, when the nation was much stronger, socially speaking. Blame the system built by liberals for the mess we are in now. But look, if you want to admit that you care nothing for your familiy members and other comunity members and would rather the rest of the nation take care of them for you, just say so. Honesty I can deal with.

Actually there are only a few in my family I would like to care for...if I could. Some of us haven't had an easy life--or a place to sleep or food to eat at our convenience. Some of us have had to start from scratch many times and have had to work twice as hard as some to get to where we are today.

Slavery was not seen as it is now, in the Western world. Back then, things were much different, so don't try and judge their lack of understanding with today's understanding. By the way, you want slavery? I'll give you slavery, how about working well into a year in order to pay one's taxes. THAT, my friend, is slavery, and it is because of a government out of control, obese with unconstitutional programs and greedy politicians, most greedy of which are the ones who have the least clue about real work. Can you guess who they are? You know, the ones who actually think that the world owes them a meal, the ones who think the workers' money is their money? You know, the kind who gets three scratches and a ticket out of Vietnam in 1/3 the time it took my father, and the kind who makes there millions by marrying wealthy widow women? Come on, guess what category such a person might fall in.

Atleast we can partially agree that the government is #ed. But it's the fault of both parties. You can't deny that without lying to yourself. Don't even get me started on the current administration.

And about the whole, "There are more trees today than there were back then." I would like to see someone explain to me how this is true, since humans have spread across the globe and with the logging, and demand for wood for paper, houses and such. Sorry. It's not true...

Ok, even if this were true. Loggers are able to log these trees 10 times faster than they could back then. Plus, as many of you forgot to mention. Our population has just slightly increased since the days of USA's birth.

We need trees to live. You get rid of the trees, you get rid of humans. It's as simple as that. Any conservative that says we can do without so many trees and wildlife and fresh water is a lying sack of crap that is out to further their own sinful deeds...

As a matter of fact, it is the truth that there are more trees now than then. Another important fact to remember is that grass provides more oxygen than does a plot of trees of the same area. So in actuality, going nuts with the tree planting is harmful.

Thorfin, as I've said, there is no way a small army is going to overtake a nation of our size if every adult was armed. Also, you have to consider how many soldiers will not turn their weapons against their own people.
Don't worry, though, as they already have taken this into account. As you see, we have alot of troops elsewhere, and when an event occurs that warrants troops in America, it'll be foreign troops under probably U.N. authority that will enter the scene. They'll be from nations that'll have no problem punching your lights out.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
As a matter of fact, it is the truth that there are more trees now than then. Another important fact to remember is that grass provides more oxygen than does a plot of trees of the same area. So in actuality, going nuts with the tree planting is harmful.

I dunno. That's debateable. Trees also provide more than just oxygen, they also provide food and homes to various forms of wildlife. Don't forget that all living things live in a balance.

Thorfin, as I've said, there is no way a small army is going to overtake a nation of our size if every adult was armed. Also, you have to consider how many soldiers will not turn their weapons against their own people.

I would hope they wouldn't. They just might at first, but then realise, "Hey, this is wrong, we should stop..."

Don't worry, though, as they already have taken this into account. As you see, we have alot of troops elsewhere, and when an event occurs that warrants troops in America, it'll be foreign troops under probably U.N. authority that will enter the scene. They'll be from nations that'll have no problem punching your lights out.

Now there you made a good point I have never considered. As I have said. I would like to own a gun. I love guns. My dad was a gun collector, and my desire for them is somewhat inherent. But unfortunately, I have bills to pay. Otherwise, if I were well-off. I would be out buying .50 AE's, .45 ACP's, AR-14's and just about any other gun that would come to mind.

This whole gun issue is a tough one for me, much like abortion. It's a love/hate thing.

I will say though. The person to stick a gun in my face better kill me, or she/he will get a cold steel enima...