Was schizophrenia just invented to keep people from believing in a God?

I do find the potential link between Schizophrenia and deity an interesting one.

Especially the one presented by The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Which, iirc, basically suggests that Schizophrenia is an evolutionary throw-back, and that early man was mildly-schizophrenic by nature. The sub-conscious essentially taking on the role of Gods, and that this is why many civilizations were polytheistic(in one form or another), and why the Gods seemed to interact with people more in antiquity.

(please note that I have not read the book, and that this is a very simple summary of the idea. I could be missing some very important ideas in the paragraph above. )

It seems like a very plausible idea to me. However, I think that we'll never really know the true state of reality for certain, especially when it comes to the human mind. As Emerson Pugh put it(one of my favorite quotes): "If the human mind was simple enough to understand, we'd be too simple to understand it."

Forget about prayer. The spirit world uses our thoughts to talk to us in our own voice to get us to do their bidding in the spiritual battle of armageddon. It would be too obvious if a spirit used someone else' voice, which happens in schizophrenics. This is what makes you do whatever it is you do. A spirit entity convinces you of a value system of right and wrong and talks to you in your own voice to make you think its you doing the thinking. You never knew the difference.

The only way to know this is to change the value system to something that goes against society and then it will cause you all kinds of problems.

reply to post by Frankidealist35

Some of the saints talked to God and angels but you see they had true humility which means they hate attention and didn't seek to talk to anyone because of their sincereness.

The false ones are like the ones access denied explained on page 1.

I don't think the disease is made up. I think everything is mostly spiritual and those people have spiritual issues and many demons that literally infest in the soul and cause insaness.

peace.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


with this condition you dont have to hear voices and things

however i think its a general clamp on anything other than hard science earthly stuff. Not just God but anything remotely religious and/or spiritual

david

[edit on 20-9-2008 by drevill]

[edit on 20-9-2008 by drevill]

reply to post by Frankidealist35


Now that is an interesting conspiracy. You usually hear the opposite that it is a natural explanation but the church erroneously believes it is demons, angels, and God.

Anyways, what is most likely occurring is that because science take a natural approach to explain things and because they are only looking for natural explanations, a natural explanation is all they are going to find.

My personal opinion is that it is a mixture of both. Some cases truly do suffer from a natural problem and some cases are actual manifestations of spiritual entities. It's one of those things that should be taken on a case by case basis and discernment should always be used.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


i think you might be on to something.

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor. All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk!
I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

UPFRONT PERSONAL DISCLOSURE:- I have personal experience both with schizophrenia (24 yrs worth since onset of adolesence worsened by 3yr methamphetamine addiction. Commited 6 times [2 times AGAINST my will! 4 times (most recent admissions) quite willingly and even demanding it on 1 of those occassions!Note: shortest admission (of all 6) was 2wks
and the longest was 3mnths) AND theism (I study theology/philosophy/metaphysics and I am also a theist! Check out my Goddess HERE!). I am on average levels medication (epilim and risperdal) twice daily that has been tweaked over 5yrs to a near perfect degree where I am able to "ACT IN THE REAL WORLD" as such to the best of my current capabilities.
NOTE: I do not claim myself to be schizophrenic, to me I'm just good old perfect me, but my close family, friends, medical advisors, and the government at large consider me (ie treat me) and officially label me "insane" so I have turned it into my profession to suit everybody including myself. So as a Proffessionally (Goverment sanctioned) Insane Theist (and working hard at it)I believe I am in a perfect position to answer the OP. Seriously!!!

Explaination: to answer the question/s the topic and the OP ask i.e."Was schizophrenia just invented to keep people from believing in a God?", I would have to ask you 1st "Do you believe or better yet know (via proof) wether 1) schizophrenia exists as a testable phenomena (truely observable to any of the 5 codified human sences) that conforms to an
A PRIORI set of parameters AND whether it is a negetive noumena (kantian philosophy) i.e. a construct only of the subjective mind, or whether it is a positive noumena (kant again) i.e. has actual substance that is the basis for that particular phenomena (i.e. subjective
minds actually existing in actual existing objective brains that may be malfunctioning according to the standard or set of phenomena that denotes one as "suffering" from schizophrenia).

The OP states and I quote it directly "Schizophrenia is said to be a condition given to people who claim to hear voices or see things". 1stly the OP doesn't qualify where this infomation comes from i.e. Who "said"? ect! 2ndly "given"? Just who is handing this stuff out?? "claim to"? well I
claim I hear my mothers voice when she talks to me and I can see my ever changing self and enviroment. So does this make me Schizophrenic? Say I walked up to you and asked you "can you see and here me?"
and if you answered "YES" and then I gave you a label that ID's you as "INSANE", then according to the OP statement I quote above, you fullfill the conditions of Schizophrenia.

Further more the OP states and again I quote it directly "Could this form of mental disease have been invented to create a fear in people to keep them from believing in God so it would make them afraid of hearing God's or the Goddesses's voice?". Whether its been invented or whether it
exists as a real state of being (e.g. are you human because thats what you can prove you are or are you human because the things you ID as human ID you back as being human? replace the word "human"
with the word "SANE" and my question relates directly to the OP) has yet to be determined.

Personal Disclosure: But I will answer them to the best of my ability....

So here goes:- possible? maybe! probable? definately (hitlers and other inhumane leaders actions come to mind) proof of said possibility and probability? well I have none to offer in the positive or negetive but I am actively seeking and receptive to well founded arguments and hypothesis grounded in falsifiability (here after called fact or proof) and I will provide such as when it comes to hand.

reply to post by KyoZero
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor. All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk!
I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Kyozero, I just wanted to say something about "Seasonal Affected Disorder" (I know you say you got it wrong and that you corrected it in a following post but pls hear me out). Having read my medical files (I have had several Drs over the years and it pays to know what their medical opinion is of me) and many of the Drs who had an opportunity to assess me over long periods of time noted that I had quite dramatic (to others such as them. Me I was as ever blissfully unaware) physical, mental and emotional turmoil and that it followed a defined pattern that was reapeted yearly over the season cycle peaking at that changes between all 4 seasons. So yes maybe there is a "Seasonal Affected Disorder" that is either a related phenomena of my particular mental disorder or it is a seperate unrelated phenomena and just an unfortunate addition to my prior condition. I will investigate further!

Personal Disclosure: Thanks to a blessed mistake, I became intrigued and will investigate.lol

reply to post by Clearskies
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor. All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk!
I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Clearskies, you state and I quote you directly "Anything someone 'hears' from G-d, that goes against scripture is WRONG!". This is all fine and good with me as I agree with you wholeheartedly, but unfortunately you don't provide any proof (specifically scriptural) to any naysayers. So to deny this ignorance I provide for both you (for your personal spiritual armament) and any naysayers (for their intellectual curiosities) the following Abrahamic faith Biblical scriptures (I use the KJV but I am willing to use any version.):-

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well [spoken that] which they have spoken.

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

AND...*=my own words so as to disambiguate.

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth (tests*) you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Deu 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

Deu 13:7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;

Deu 13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

Deu 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Deu 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Personal Disclosure: As I state in my disclaimer above, although I am a theist I am NOT of the Abrahamic faiths but I do have some biblical knowledge and I share it here with the aim of denying ignorance!

reply to post by Frankidealist35


Hi:

I like this post that you made; it holds much truth. I have a couple of pieces of poetry that I wrote that suit your comment; I hope you don't mind. Poetry is a great way to express myself, and can provide the most stimulating answers.

i have a couple of more poems that are interesting to read if you like these ones.

Cheers!




Life Is Forever Flowing!

In a World where I'm driven by my passions, These fears seem to hold me back.

I never know where I'm going, This chaos has no path.

We're taught to believe beginnings and ends, When no such things exist.

Our souls like energies that carry on forever, An infinite void of bliss.

Our concepts keep on changing, Dumb tomorrow smart today.

We'll keep on going nowhere, Our pasts will always fade.

History never repeats itself, Some believe it actually will.

Y'all can believe what you want, I believe that time stands still.

Stop running from your shadows, Let the light chase you down.

Your dreams are alive inside your mind, A smile is an upside-frown.

So before you think of something new, Know it has been thought before.

We're sideways; backwards; downside-up, A house is on a door.

If you can't make sense of this, Your wisdom is what you know.

There's no point now in knowing how, An atom always flows.




Another One!

When two see one, but one means two. It's true!

We are all different, you and I, but we both have two eyes!

When one' speaks one, it means one to one', but to you it can mean two, or one!

It all depends if you know ones' one, but if you don't, ones' one just might mean two to you!

So how's one' to know ones' one if ones' one can mean two to you. One might never truly know ones' one to compare it too!

But then how is the other one' to know the other ones' ones, if all of the other ones' ones can be twos too!

I guess one' can't totally know one' because ones' ones can be twos!




Everytime!

Everytime my eyes open, I am reborn into the World

A chance for change, a change of desire, a desire for change

Everytime I open the door, a whole new World awaits me

New discoveries, different miracles, a change of theories

Everytime I speak, my life changes, A refreshed knowledge

Different wisdom, new words, a changed meaning

Evertime I help, ones' life recovers, anothers' discovers

A chance to heal, a change in others

Everytime I sleep, my thoughts gather

A chance for hope, a change in wishes, a desire for my

Wishes to have a chance to give hope,

And to change this World for the better




This Life!

This life is masked by delusions
It's grandeur
We believe one anothers' confusions
We don't understand where we are

Foolish hearts we possess
We cry to be heard
Our spirits are roaming around distressed
Our stories are absurd

In this world I am a stranger
Even to those that I Love
Away in a manger
God's spirit descends on me like a dove

reply to post by onehappyangel


onehappyangel:

Hello to you! Oh, how much I loved reading your poems. They are so beautiful and thought provoking. I really liked the last one, "This is Life". It seemed to touch a special part of my heart.


Keep on writing. The Lord has given you a wonderful gift here.


Peace to you,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Thank You. I appreciate your interest. God bless you. I have a couple of more for you to read.



Dreamz!

Dreams, they are my friends

Interpreting life for me.

Fortelling the problems I may encounter,

Showing what my emotions mean.

They are a tale of my story,

A look at what the future may behold.

I can't say I don't understand,

Because when I sleep I am told.

Fear seems to manifest itself,

In horror; death; and pain.

For Love it is the Ocean,

From both my life can gain.

A truth can reveal itself,

In detail I can see.

Lies sometimes can remain undetermined,

Through an Ocean of rugged seas.

So whenever I want to open my heart up,

I go to sleep and expose my mind.

There are many types of hidden secrets,

And I never know what I might find.




Connected!

We are connected
Our thoughts intertwined
We feel each other's emotions
All of the time

Our hearts are open books
Our creator simply reads
These lives are written in the cosmos
In the heavens we plant our seeds

This place we call home
It's more than a glitch you'll see
Our souls do more than roam
Our spirits forever will be


This poem called 'For the Moment' is some good advice too.


For the Moment!

Our senses guide us

They teach us

They make us aware of our surroundings

Sometimes the lack of one sense makes us more aware of the other senses we use

It brings a whole new perspective on life as we know it

What is wrong for us today can be right for us tomorrow

Or what is right for us today will be right for us tomorrow

But for completely different reasons

No one day for us is the same

And no one day are we the same

We must be completely aware of this concept

Or we will be living our lives based on false truths and beliefs

Knowing yourself is not knowing the person you were yesterday

But knowing who you are at any given moment

As long as you know that each moment you are changing

Then you know that you can only know yourself for the moment




Now, to anyone who cares, I have had two major psycholgical and/or mental experiences, and some would call them schizophrenic ones. I can answer many questions that people may have in regards to why people who are diagnosed with this illness have a deluded perception and a warped sense of reality.

I'll answer any questions that anybody may have. I am not currently going through these types of experiences, at this time. Specific questions are easier to answer than my explaining these two experiences that I have had. If I attempted to try and explain my experiences to anyone 'sane or normal', or anybody who has not had a similar type of experience, it would be like trying to explain a three dimensional cube to a two dimensional square; you just wouldn't get it!

By the way, I don't believe I'm Scizophrenic; and I don't believe anybody truly has this illness; It is much more complex than that which doctors, shrinks, or anyone else can comprehend, and that is why people get scared, and some people act in ignorance to these people affected in this way.

That being said, I wrote a poem that is inspired by my last experience. I hope you enjoy it. I know Grandma will!



No Longer Lost

Still empty
No longer lost
You made me see
No matter what the cost
For a little time
I seen through their eyes
A strangers life
There are many lies
For once I have learned
Perfection hurts
I'm now able to knowingly discern
Spirits and their hearts
My thoughts under your control
Showed me truth
Gave me a new soul
The answers were absolute
I still remain empty
Yet thanks to you Jehovah
God
Creator
I am no longer lost

reply to post by onehappyangel


Oh sweetheart,

What beautiful words you write. I liked all of them, but you are right, I really loved the last one.

The Lord has put his hand upon you and blessed you. May you always feel his love and the joy of his spirit in your heart and soul. Write on!


Peace to you angel,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma



I wrote a new one today.

I Tried!

I tried to tell
Yet you knew me not
Love me always
Take not any thought
Surrender all thy self
As I cradle you in these arms
Have not any little doubt
You will always be warm

I tried to help
Whenever you needed someone to listen
To feel what you felt
Let me bring you back in
Don't forget me ever
Oh sweet tender angel
This heart will make you better
Your sorrow I will heal

I tried
Always remember
How we cried
Oh that sweet surrender
Empathy
Sympathy
Emotionally
Holy

reply to post by onehappyangel


Hello Sweetheart:

What a beautiful poem. It sounds a little sad though. I just want to share with you that I believe that for every tear we cry, God cries one too. When we hurt and suffer he is with us, we just sometimes don't always see him.

May the Lord shine his love and light upon you and give you peace and joy in your heart and soul.


Peace to you,
Grandma