My uncle hates the F-22A!

My uncle used to be a mechanic on the F-15C eagle. About a year ago he retired and now is a civilian that washes the jets at our afb. I was talking him this week and he hates the raptor. He says its top speed with ab is 1.5 mach. He said its stealth is worst than the F-117. He thinks the F-15 is better. He says we only bought the f22 to give lockheed martin money. He says the air-force lies about everything to do the f22. He doesn't get classified info on the f22, he is not in that program. He only got info on the f15. Where does he come up with this?

Well the F-22 is new and has a fanzy paint job. And a new radar. And can fly a bit higher then other jets. Apart from that it is just an other jet.

That would be why your uncle only washes the planes.

My cousin who is on the actual crews that keeps these birds flying LOVES them....compared to other planes that is ;-)

Originally posted by bismarcksea
That would be why your uncle only washes the planes.

My cousin who is on the actual crews that keeps these birds flying LOVES them....compared to other planes that is ;-)

well he was working on keeping the f15 flying. until he retired and started washing planes

I liked the YF-23 better than the F-22...but I would call him ignorant for saying it's worse than the F-15 or F-117. A raptor would rip them to shreads.

Your uncle is dead wrong.

It is interesting to note a number of things, first. The F-15 has never acheived Mach 2.5. It has never gone much past Mach 1.5 in combat. To get to supersonic speeds with any external weapons you're going to need the afterburners; which sucks the tanks dry very quickly, particularly because acceleration as these heights & altitudes is relatively slow.

Yet, the F-22 has been demonstrated to fly at speeds of Mach 1.7 on without afterburner - with a full internal load of air-to-air munitions. It can get to these speeds with relative ease. Top speed is estimated at Mach 2, but I've seen no data on that... fixed inlets may prevent higher speeds. F-22 has thrust vectoring, which, when supersonic, significantly lowers aerodynamic loads on the aircraft which gives the aircraft pitch rates 50% better than with no thrust vectoring.
www.af.mil...

Stealth worse than F-117 is rediculous. The design delta between the aircraft is 20+ years. And by modern standards a faceted flying dorito is hardly stealthy. Oh yeah, and not a single professional defense analyst agrees with him. I've seen estimates on the F-22... here. That doesn't tell us the details... but either way it's a thousand times better than F-117.

Sensors are a billion times better than F-15... avionics are a billion times better than F-15. AESA is an advantage to start. It has sensor fusion, DAS... & so on.... New sensors are inheritely stealthy so you can keep out of harms way, & gain a massive situational advantage.

Why don't you ask your uncle how the F-22, in Northern Edge Exercise, had the most lopsided results ever. 2006: 241-to-2. If he tells you they were 'lieing' then I'm sure nothing would save him.

This obviously doesn't mean it's the perfect aircraft however. It's pretty damned expensive, & had (has?) maintainence and has or had structural problems, & integration issues. Unfortunately I only have one link for you in this area.
www.pogo.org...
I disagree with some aspects of the report for a number of reasons...

If you want more informaton look up StellarX, & Westpoint23 members posts here, or ask here.

[edit on 26/8/2008 by C0bzz]

I believe that the f-22 is a better plane than the f-15 although it was still the wrong choice.
They should of gone with the YF-23A Black Widow II, over the raptor as it was a much better plane.
I understand what your unlce is saying about the F-22 being chosen to give Lockheed Martin money however i think it was more likely that certain parties within the airforce etc, had a vested interest in the F-22 being chosen.

The YF-23A was not ony a better plane but a lot better looking too and i would go as far as to say probably the more stealthy of the two.

I was an Assistant Crew Chief on F-15C/D's at Langley A.F.B. VA when I was in the Air Force. You develop a sense of loyalty to your aircraft, and specifically the aircraft 'type'. I'm sure the F-22 is a vast improvement on the F-15 when it comes to the mission, but you wouldn't be able to make ME like it more than the Eagle!

Sometimes that sense of loyalty outpaces common sense. I agree with one thing brought up in this thread though. The USAF would have made more sense choosing the better performing YF-23 rather than the YF-22 'performance'-wise, however, 'loyalty' to General Dynamics made more sense to them at the time!

'well he was washing planes'. I suppose I'd dislike that myself. Don't go away mad, just go away.

Hey guys

Don't get your hopes up for the raptor just yet. No Helmet mounted sight (HMCS) (mapping issues in the cockpit), No data linkage (link 16 etc)..

As the airforce itself says.

Col Sutter, Chief of ACC/A8F, 5th Generation Fighter Division says:

"Integration was abandoned because of technical difficulty. To add it in today would be very costly with the integrated avionics architecture. We do not expect to ever have a HMCS in the F-22 under the current buy of only 183 aircraft." and confirmed that their were "difficulties mapping the F-22 cockpit for a head tracking system."

So that means that not only will the F-22 never have a modern HMD/HMSS but it won't even have a JHMCS or a simple helmet cueing system like the RAF's Jaguars had. But since it doesn't have a HOBS weapon either and won't get one until 2016 (the AIM-9X planned date for F-22!) and even then may not have lock before launch from inside the bay, perhaps it's moot for the air-to-air role.

And with the way in which they are back-pedalling from any air-to-ground capability for the Raptor, perhaps they can do without.

F-22 doesn't have JTIDS. F-22 has only the stealthy Intra Flight Data Link, which communicates ONLY with other F-22s in the same flight. Colonel Sutter says that: "Currently, F-22s link with each other but do not link with other platforms except thru voice radio.

What this means is that you couldn't put Raptors in the air with any other force packages as they can't exchange data and would be in great danger of Blue on Blue.

Something to think about for the mighty F22.

Apologies to Jon Lake.

Originally posted by full997
I believe that the f-22 is a better plane than the f-15 although it was still the wrong choice.
They should of gone with the YF-23A Black Widow II, over the raptor as it was a much better plane.

In only a few ways.
The Widow didn't have the range, nor the payload that the F-22 had, which is what the air force was looking for.

Theres just NO WAY the air force would spend that much on a plane that cant do as much as even talk to other aircraft. As for the rest of what it "doesnt" have then its because its got something better. The Raptor has been updated and improved continuously since we decided to buy them.

F22 vs F23? The F22 of today is a VAST improvement over what was pitted against the widow and today would eat its lunch.

As for the F23 I to am fascinated to find out what happened to the F23 airframes that recently disappeared from museums. I think well see vastly improved F23s come back as FB23s. Just watch.

And cmon ppl. Get a subscription to Janes. Seems everybodys parroting info thats now ten years old....

thank you...

Reise

what I posted is the statement from the US aiforce guy in charge of the 5th generation fighter projects. Go argue with him.

Or go to fence check and argue with "Dozer" who did and I believe still does fly the f22.

The data linkage is due to stealth (not stealthy while transmitting data) and the integrated hardware suite and the fact that the AF wanted many hundreds more of these than they are going to get.

Wishing and wanting will not make it so no matter how much noise you make.

Deny ignorance, don't assume because there is hard evidence that everything about the f22 is not rosy it must have "something better".

Software crashing crossing the time zone for gods sake, OOOPs, overheating hardware, bulkheads too weak, need I go on. Phasers and plasma guns anyone????

These are all common to all new aircarft. Nowhere did I say that the f22 would not cut down enemies like flies, it will. But you won't get many other planes to fly with it cos they won't be able to see the battle space that the F15 can for instance.

The F-22 is harder to maintain and it seems more like an expensive extravagance rather then a tough work horse like the F-15 or Spitfire were (two of the greatest fighters ever IMO). This could be the reason he doesn't like it. On paper the F-22 is way better but wars aren't fought on paper and the planes don't build, repair or maintain themselves... not yet anyway.

Originally posted by Reise Reise
Theres just NO WAY the air force would spend that much on a plane that cant do as much as even talk to other aircraft. As for the rest of what it "doesnt" have then its because its got something better. The Raptor has been updated and improved continuously since we decided to buy them.

F22 vs F23? The F22 of today is a VAST improvement over what was pitted against the widow and today would eat its lunch.

As for the F23 I to am fascinated to find out what happened to the F23 airframes that recently disappeared from museums. I think well see vastly improved F23s come back as FB23s. Just watch.

And cmon ppl. Get a subscription to Janes. Seems everybodys parroting info thats now ten years old....

thank you...

F-23 here
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Originally posted by Deharg
The data linkage is due to stealth (not stealthy while transmitting data) and the integrated hardware suite and the fact that the AF wanted many hundreds more of these than they are going to get.

But you won't get many other planes to fly with it cos they won't be able to see the battle space that the F15 can for instance.

Just to clarify a couple of things.

1. Are you talking about transmitting and receiving? It isn't exactly a technical challenge to download information that is openly broadcast by others while keeping passive yourself.

2. The F-22 has been shown to be capable of managing battlefields in the various red flags... unless the USAF have been telling porkies.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
The F-22 is harder to maintain and it seems more like an expensive extravagance rather then a tough work horse like the F-15 or Spitfire were (two of the greatest fighters ever IMO).

The F-22 Raptor is not "harder" to maintain than the F-15. Certain things have to be done differently yes, but that in on way suggests a higher level of maintenence. In fact the F-22 carries evolutionary capability in self diagnostics and it was designed for 8,000 flight hours with a capability for more. Consider this with the F-15s initial design of 4,000 flight hours. Once initial design issues are sorted out soon the F-22 will prove to be I believe a vert reliable and easy jet to maintain.

As for it being expensive well yes, reasonably so, but lets not forget the external factors which have ballooned that price. Chiefly among them being the cancellation of 75% of the initial order. If the Raptor was procured in large numbers that price would fall dramatically. Considering inflation and the level of technology it would not be an unreasonable one.

Also, the F-22 is not in the least bit of an "extravagance", it is an absolute necessity. Current aircraft are nearing the end of their lifespan and due to the high tempo in operation right now are being pushed to the limit. Many have flight restrictions due to this and would be dangerous to fly into serious combat. The systems and inherent design specifications of these aircraft are also not as great as we would like them to be against a near peer adversary. The Raptor along with next generation aircraft offer us an unparalleled ability to dominate the air and land over any location on Earth. Ensuring our forces are more effective and better protected in any situation. Don't know about you but I'd like to win a war as fast as possible 99 to 1 instead of 51 to 50 when lives are concerned.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
On paper the F-22 is way better but wars aren't fought on paper...

The F-22 is more effective and far superior to the F-15C in virtually every category. It is the premiere fighter aircraft in the world. It's assortment of sensors, weapons, stealth, integrated avionics, maneuverability and speed make it unmatched. For years now the Raptor has demonstrated both home and abroad in some of the most difficult and complex simulated war games we have that is is superior to our current inventory. Not only being able to defeat large numbers of advanced enemy aircraft but next generation air defense systems. It also acts as a force multiplies and makes our current legacy aircraft more effective by sharing its information with them.

Sending and recieving.

If you have the correct hardware onboard. F15 does F22 does not. F22 has a dedicated hardwarde installation that is NOT compatible with that onboard the f15. Airforce says so who am I to argue.

F22 talks data to F22 (was in original post by me),. what it can't do is download (read hear see etc) the netcentric data from the awacs or F15.

What they can do is recieve text messages ... ahh how useful will that be?

F22 is stupendous and absolutely unbeatable in BVR........ given... BUT it can't link data with the rest of the airforce and there are only planned to be 183 of them....

It can't act as a mini AWACS either (unless with another F22) also acknowledged by the Airforce.

[edit on 27-8-2008 by Deharg]

Originally posted by Deharg
F15 does F22 does not. F22 has a dedicated hardwarde installation that is NOT compatible with that onboard the f15. Airforce says so who am I to argue.

The F-22 uses it's radar to transmit/recieve info.

The F-15 etc use link-16.

Originally posted by Deharg
It can't act as a mini AWACS either (unless with another F22) also acknowledged by the Airforce.

It can sure. It can direct fighters around via radio - but it cannot share the "picture"... yet.



This link might be of interest to you (and the rest of the thread)

www.defense-update.com...


An extract:

Due to security considerations, the access to information provided by some of the most advanced sensors currently available in theater is highly restricted. For example, intelligence and situational picture generated by F-22 Raptors cannot be transferred to F-15s, F-16 or AWACS even if both units are participating in the same operation. As stealth aircraft, F-22s are not equipped with conventional datalinks such as Link-16 which can be easily spotted by enemy SIGINT. Instead, they use a unique stealth-qualified, narrow-beam Intra-Flight Data-Link (IFDL) designed to relay data and synchronize a situational picture only among the Raptors. As this stealth datalink is incompatible with all other communications devices, Raptors cannot communicate with any friendly aircraft.

The experimental Battlefield Airborne Communications Node (BACN) developed by Northrop Grumman will partly solve this issue. An early version of this airborne relay currently employed on a NASA WB-57 in Afghanistan utilized a range of radio datalinks to bridge between different networks.

A more advanced version integrated in a Gulfstream business jet is being tested. When completed, Northrop Grumman proposes to deploy BCAN on the Global hawk UAV. During the exercise, two Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptors tested a new method for universal F-22 connectivity with an experimental version of the Rockwell Collins' Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT). For the first time F-22 sensor data was down-linked to the Combined Air Operations Center (CAOC) using a tactical network. In a previous test performed as part of JFEX08-2 earlier this year, images were transmitted from an F-22 to an F-16 via a ground based gateway. Through this experiment, the new radio successfully sent classified sensor data to ground stations at Nellis and Langley Air Force Bases, which then relayed the data to airborne F-16s. According to Col. Moulton, the test provided essential support for further development of future. Battlefield Airborne Communications Node ( BACN) assets and a future ground mobile gateway are designed to support joint air and ground operations.

[edit on 27/8/08 by kilcoo316]

Originally posted by Deharg
If you have the correct hardware onboard. F15 does F22 does not. F22 has a dedicated hardwarde installation that is NOT compatible with that onboard the f15. Airforce says so who am I to argue.

It's almost 2009, these are being integrated across the Raptor fleet. It's only a matter of time before all F-22 Raptors are modified with superb receive/transmit capability.