HOw could you NOT agree with this???

This is a very basic post in regards to all religion.

It has to be said and it must me discussed. What do you folks think about this...


Do any of you agree with me on the simple fact that any and all religions are just as possible as any idea I dream up and write about.

..While I am not claiming that it is completely impossible for the religions of the world to be real, it is not probably and most likely complete BS.

let me continue..
I feel that anyone that believes it because of their own faith is basing their faith on nothing but hope and wishful thinking.

I dont want to talk about the fact that religion is control or anything like that.
Just that the difference between anyone on this forum and a rabbi, priest, or any religious person is nothing more than knowledge in regards to a book.

NO one knows anything about GOD. No one has and no one will. It is all speculation based on ancient writing or wishful thinking.

anyone that tells you "well I know for sure there is a GOD" is either lying to your face directly or has fooled him/herself into believing in complete fantasy.

While I myself think that religion and their stories are very interesting and fun to know, I am completely aware that anyone who takes this info as fact is....,
completely..
DELUSIONAL.

so you do you agree with me that all people who claim a certain belief in any religion on completely DELUSIONAL?

Originally posted by MrJelly


anyone that tells you "well I know for sure there is a GOD" is either lying to your face directly or has fooled him/herself into believing in complete fantasy.

I know for sure there is a God. I experience him everyday. My relationship with him is what keeps me going, keeps me knowing that he is looking out for me, and my love for him is what makes me want to make a positive difference for him.
However, my claim is just as valid to you as would be another man's claim that he had a tea party with an alien. It's up to you to believe. A relationship is something you have to experience yourself.

I can tell you being in love is fricken awesome, but you'll never know until you experience. Now there is something you cannot disagree with.

On a purely scientific level. I would agree with you. But this existence is not purely scientific. Many millions of people believe in a higher power of different creed. It is unfortunate those differences have caused much death and destruction. It is what it is.

I think the whole thing boils down to when we are born, from the time we are babies and all through our lives we are told by our mother and father what they believe, and our belief system is made up of a lifetime of this. And our mother and father were told by their mother and father, and on and on and on.
Plus we have all of society giving us their views and their belief systems were molded the same as ours. And since we have grown from a lifetime of hearing this and then believing this, when you bring up a subject like this, those who are open minded will say hmmm, I have to agree, religion could have been made up by anybody. So yes I agree with the OP. The thing is, most people are scared to death when someone has a view that goes against their belief system, and aren't open minded enough to say hey, I am just believing what my parents taught me to believe, who got their beliefs from what their parents taught them to believe, so maybe generations ago someones parents could have been totally wrong. And I have been conditioned all my life to believe something that is Wrong.
Honestly, I have often wondered if from the time we were born, if we were not told and taught the beliefs of our parents, and were left to decide on our own "How" we got here, why were here, who or what created us and so on, wonder what we on our own and through our own instincts we would come up with. I don't believe that any "one" religion is true, and they almost all claim to be the one true religion. I believe we came from somewhere, but I will not label it as being God.

reply to post by stealthsurfer

Btw, OP I have flagged this thread just because I think you have brought up a very interesting point, and I am sure there will be some very interesting and heated discussion if this thread continues to bloom...lol

Originally posted by MrJelly

NO one knows anything about GOD. No one has and no one will. It is all speculation based on ancient writing or wishful thinking.

Well, MrJelly, I guess that would eliminate your opinion as well then, wouldn't it? You certainly seem to think you 'know' all there is to know about this un-knowable topic. Do you see the contradiction?

And as far as starting a religion, have you tried?

It's quite obvious to me that you have some very strong feelings about religion. And you are free to feel and think whatever you wish. I would never be so arrogant as to criticize you or condemn you for your right to believe or to not believe. I would also never be so arrogant as to call all those who do choose to believe in some 'Higher Power' "DELUSIONAL", as you so passionately have.

Good luck trying to disprove the existence of God. It's just as difficult as proving it.

i agree that no one "knows" about God for sure, it's based on faith. I am 27 years old and i still don't even know what i feel about God, there have been long stretches in my life that i didn't think there was any such thing, and there have been times when it was almost undeniable. My problem with your post is this; you seem to "know" for sure that there isn't any higher power...how did you come by this knowledge? You are trying to discredit people whho believe, and i think that is the worst idea I ever heard of, the country i live in (america) was founded on unpopular opinion, and everyone's opinion should be valid. Be more considerate OP, like i said i don't know what i believe, but everyone who does or doesn't can contribute equally to the big picture. I come on this site to exercise the drudgery of everyday existance in a world full of greedheads trying at all times to destroy my american dream, and if you are not into being open minded maybe you should just watch Fox News and....
put some more thoughts behind these ideas, explain it more, not just a post saying basicly "you should believe me..who would'nt believe me? i am right and if you don't agree you are wrong." it just doesn't give credit to your ideas. I would be very interested to hear more reasoning, like a pyschological explanation or theory as to why ever since man was able to wonder about his place in the universe, the idea of God or gods came along with it. i am not trashing you if that is what it sounds like, i think you should present your idea in a more compatibal way for discussion.

[edit on 24-8-2008 by Enigma Publius]

I accord everyone their own beliefs, or absence of them. It is a personal thing, and I think it a tweak harsh for you to paint folks with beliefs as "delusional", however, that is YOUR belief, and I respect that as well.

I kind of get the feeling that you'd like people to come to your thread and defend their beliefs -- perhaps I'm wrong. If there is any truth to that, however, you might get with the Mods and arrage an ATS debate. I find all of them that I've read very engaging and insightful, and the addition of a regulated format system tend to quell some of the more distasteful aspects of these threads, such as flaming, or making broad-stroke statements about people without evidenciary support.

I apologize for not being able to cite the source, but someone once said:

Religion has caused a great number of otherwise sensible men to become atheists.

I went through such a phase about fifteen years ago. However, certain events in my life have led me, like many others, to come back around to a strong and intuitive [not analytical, mind you...it's 'beyond reason', so to speak] belief in a God/Higher Power/Tao/Force/Boogah-Boogah/whatever... Call It what You will.

Here's another quote, this one attributed to William Shakespeare, from Hamlet

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Then are dreamt of in your philosophy.

reply to post by MrJelly

anyone that tells you "well I know for sure there is a GOD" is either lying to your face directly or has fooled him/herself into believing in complete fantasy.

People who make statements like this have to be either under 18 years old, or living with their parents.
You need to get out a little and try to help people and find out for yourself, not just sit around and pass judgment on other people's experiences, that you know nothing about.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by MrJelly

 

anyone that tells you "well I know for sure there is a GOD" is either lying to your face directly or has fooled him/herself into believing in complete fantasy.

People who make statements like this have to be either under 18 years old, or living with their parents.
You need to get out a little and try to help people and find out for yourself, not just sit around and pass judgment on other people's experiences, that you know nothing about.

You're no better than the OP if you're telling him/her what he/she "need[s]" to do. C'mon now, take the high road. You know where it is.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

How could you NOT agree with this???

Very simple. I just did. I welcome your opinion as much as any others but I don't find religious individuals to be delusional.

You're no better than the OP if you're telling him/her what he/she "need[s]" to do. C'mon now, take the high road. You know where it is.

Glad someone said this

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

But again from the scientific view this isn't merely words. For all we know words of a person who never met God. I think OP was pointing out that indeed you cannot prove the 'word' was anything more than some person's word

-Kyo

[edit on 25-8-2008 by KyoZero]

Please read
here are my replies so far

I know for sure there is a God. I experience him everyday.

no you dont. end of story. Your experience of GOD is what you THINK GOD is suppose to be. WHy is this hard for you to understand. Love is completely different and GOD is not something you make for yourself. Besides, your statement is only there to make you feel good..nothing more.

ANYONE that says they know there is a GOD is lying to you or fooling themselves. THis is a valid statement that you can not ARGUE with.
you say "for sure" but you mean "I FEEL" hmmmm.

I guess that would eliminate your opinion as well then, wouldn't it? You certainly seem to think you 'know' all there is to know about this un-knowable topic. Do you see the contradiction?

No I dont see the contradiction at all. What I know is that I am not DELUSIONAL. Which means I choose not to believe in something just based on feelings. I KNOW all there is to know because I REFUSE to give into ILLOGICAL thinking, no matter how good it makes me feel or how great it sounds "I FEEL god everyday" no you dont. What you feel is your existence filtering through your brain.

It is a personal thing

As in, believe what you want to believe. But last time I checked we are all humans/animals, which means GOD is for everyone. SO it might be a personal choice to be delusional, but its as simple as DO YOU SEE THAT table.
for example. If I said..do you FEEL THE JOY? does that mean ANYTHING. nope.
DO YOU FEEL GOD? sure I do, it is my existence. Gets us nowhere.
DELUSIONAl and WISHFUL thinking.nothing more

my favorite is JMdewey60 who can only talk SHt about me.

People who make statements like this have to be either under 18 years old, or living with their parents.
You need to get out a little and try to help people and find out for yourself, not just sit around and pass judgment on other people's experiences, that you know nothing about.

Im 29, very successful..in every way possible. Apart from being hard working, This is because I am not DELUSIONAL.

I have no need to "help other people" because most people prefer to be victims so they can complain all the time.
Moving on with your nonsense words...YOUR ExpERIENcE is only that...ExpERIENcE. My statement about "anyone that tells u there is a god is lying to your face....." is COMPLETELY VALID.

no matter how believable your experience is it is illogical to assume that it is real. SEE
REALITY is OBJECTIVE
Experience is SUBJECTIVE.
a very simple idea that people learn but you will not observe reality.
you choose to live in fantasy because it gives you hope and its a lot easier assuming there is someone out there looking after you instead of observing reality.



Lastly, some of you out there that are actually thinking and can observe reality.. Notice this simple logic..


Your experience does not prove ANTYHING. Psychologically, it proves your NEED for a GOD-like figure to be in your life (this can be for many reasons which I wont go into anymore).

The reason why I and OTHERS can say YOU ARE WRONG is simple. BECAUSE WE observe reality.
Logical thinking.
Would it hurt your feelings if you knew that you were nothing more than an animal.
Yes it would.
because you prefer to think that you are special.
Delusional thinking is exactly that.

People are DELUSIONAL when they believe in things that can not be proven to the masses. (but Mr.Jelly, I believe in molecules and bla bla bla., yes coz u can PROVE those things no matter how small or far away they are) and FEELINGS are not proof.
FOR example,

if YOU fall in love with someone..that is your feeling.
IT does not mean that EVERYONE will fall in love with that someone.

IF you experience GOD, that is your feeling.
it does not mean everyone will EXPERIENCE GOD. BUT, it is YOUR EXPERIENCE, NOT GOD that is the feeling and KEY POINT.


Falling in love with a person AND experiencing GOD are not similar.
BOTH include a FEELING
but only ONE includes 2 REAL PEOPLE IN REALITY.

It is true that at any point I might be proven wrong. GOd comes out or whatever.
BUt using deductive logic and NOT being delusional will only lead you to one path.
that is that NO ONE HAS EVER and most likely WILL EVER KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD.
no matter how much you want to believe it or explain it you will not be able to.
because it is DELUSIONAL

and dont be afraid to tell people THEY ARE WRONG.

why do you all assume EACH person has different experience and each one is LEGIT. sure, but that doesnt mean their experiences are REAL. reality is objective.
you ever taken mushrooms, or LCD, or '___'.
are those experiences REAL? no they are subjective.


LASTLY,
I believe religion has done A LOT MORE GOOD in this world.
I am all for religion, however, I refuse to fool myself into thinking that its real.
COULD IT BE REAL. SURE, but is it probable..NOPE

BEFORE YOU BASH me and call me names remember this.

EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID Is valid.

try to argue with any of my word without getting emotional or using subjective feelings or delusional ideas like "I HAVE FELT GOD"

btw
in the beginning was the word. and where does this get us? nowhere

u ever read summerian texts?

BUt I forget..we are all about FEELING GOOD and not INSULTING anyone experience around here. Grow a pair and OBSERVE REALITY.
it will get you FAR IN LIFE

no you dont. end of story. Your experience of GOD is what you THINK GOD is suppose to be. WHy is this hard for you to understand. Love is completely different and GOD is not something you make for yourself. Besides, your statement is only there to make you feel good..nothing more.

And you can prove these individuals wrong? I would dearly love to hear it.

What I know is that I am not DELUSIONAL. Which means I choose not to believe in something just based on feelings. I KNOW all there is to know because I REFUSE to give into ILLOGICAL thinking, no matter how good it makes me feel or how great it sounds "I FEEL god everyday" no you dont. What you feel is your existence filtering through your brain.

And the contradiction I see is this. You accuse members of a faith that they are in no possible way experiencing God and that they say when the 'feel or experience God' it is naught but a feeling made up by the brain. Well I can testify that as a scientist I can partially agree with that accusation but there lies a massive problem in what you consider logic in this argument. Your above statement can be easily construed as the exact same fallacy. When you say you refuse to give in to illogical thinking I believe what you really mean is you don't want to see outside your beliefs. You cannot in any way, shap or form prove that they did not indeed have an experience with God. If you can, I once again challenge you to show me honest concrete proof that they are full of it. This is the same challenge I give to Christians who believe that God is all. Prove it to me.

So I ask you again. Prove to me those individuals were not experiencing God in a concrete and absolute way that will destroy all doubt.

Moving on with your nonsense words...YOUR ExpERIENcE is only that...ExpERIENcE. My statement about "anyone that tells u there is a god is lying to your face....." is COMPLETELY VALID.

Let the burden lie on you. You've made the accusation that they are lying now prove it.

no matter how believable your experience is it is illogical to assume that it is real.

...and no matter how believeable is it to you that God is a fallacy it is completely illogical to assume without some honest measure of testing. Have you gone through every known and unknown measure of testing to prove this? Say I hooked up an fMRI to a Christian who is 'experiencing' God right now. Say a certain area of his visual lobe or aural lobe is rating high in activity. We'll we've proven that activity is occuring but the crux of the situation is that I cannot prove that patient is having an actual experience with you and you cannot prove he isn't.

Your experience does not prove ANTYHING

And neither does your lack of experience.

The reason why I and OTHERS can say YOU ARE WRONG is simple. BECAUSE WE observe reality.

You have to love when one must beat a dead horse. You have done so and so will I. Prove your reality is the right one.

IF you experience GOD, that is your feeling.
it does not mean everyone will EXPERIENCE GOD. BUT, it is YOUR EXPERIENCE, NOT GOD that is the feeling and KEY POINT.

AH HA! And thus we come to what I believe is my proof that you just made for me. You say that if you experience God it doesn't mean everyone else will. I could not agree with you more MJ. You cannot prove God didn't cause that experience.

I have a friend who has experienced heroin. I have not. Am I Mr Reality now if I say that heroin can't exist because I have not experienced it? Who's t say it wasn't normal IV Saline in his syringe and his mind wanted to believe in heroin so he experienced what we say heroin does?

Falling in love with a person AND experiencing GOD are not similar.

Falling in love is still a belief. There is no concreteness to love. Go ahead and ask me to prove I love Sarah (my wife). I dare you because as sure I am typing this I am sure I cannot prove to you that I love her. Heck I can't even prove she exists over this medium and let's say I had an undeniable way to prove her and I are with each other, who is to say I didn't pay this cute girl some money to tell you that she loves me?

that is that NO ONE HAS EVER and most likely WILL EVER KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD

Quite possible just like nobody will ever really prove he isn't real.

u ever read summerian texts?

No...but why should I believe them? If the bible is indeed a fallacy it is quite likely those texts are a fallacy as well. This may sound extreme but here I go. Prove to me that Stalin existed.

BUt I forget..we are all about FEELING GOOD and not INSULTING anyone experience around here. Grow a pair and OBSERVE REALITY.

Now my favorite portion of your post is when you say not bash you. What on Earth do you call what you ust said to Christians? Why don't you grow a pair and start learning that because you believe something doesn't make it true? I can call you an apple if I like. Is it true? Probably not.

You sit here and tell Christians that they are delusional because their experience is false. Ok fair enough. I am hereby going to assume you are delusional because your lack of experience has caused you to doubt all that you haven't experienced.

You want my honest opinion? I think there are whacked-out ideas on each side of this debate.

One person tells me that I will go to hell because I don't believe in God and another tells me all people who believe in religion are delusional and that there is no such theing then turns and says "COULD IT BE REAL. SURE, but is it probable..NOPE"

So which is it? Are you dead set that it is fake because that;s what you have touted this entire time and yet now you said it is possible.

-Kyo

Originally posted by MrJelly
I am not DELUSIONAL.

prove it.

reply to post by KyoZero


experience subjective

reality objective

I love this idea that if someone says they experience GOD that they might have..plus
this
idea that if you can DISPROVE it, it means there is a possibility.

SO funny
U can easily prove they did not experience god by stating the obvious. what was that.
oh yea
that its simply freaking an ExPERIENCE?

is it really that hard to grasp this concept.
OH I FORGET

everyone who experiences anything is worth investigating. Until u realize that its not REALITY.

reply to post by KyoZero


I must admit I will not answer your comments simply because you are becoming emotional, illogical, and completely delusional. and plus, I already answered some of the questions and yet u keep asking the same ones

for example

Prove it? prove what??? prove that something DOESNT exist? lol okay done.
there.

as for me making fun of Christians.. Wrong

I am simply stating the obvious, that people who believe in things that dont exist are delusional?
That is a fact.
no room for argument. (wait , if more than X amount of people believe something it becomes a reality? dont think so)

I happen to love the christian religion over all other religions because it my opinion it is the only religion that provides people with love and respect for others. HOWEVER<
that is not the same as saying it is TRUE

The root word REligion is RE-ligion.

meaning REconnecting to a LIGament that we were all a part of once. Hmmm.

but does that mean the info in the bible is connect? and if so DO YOU FOLLOW IT?
and if not WHY not?
because you are aware that it is delusion but still love to fantasize that there is a GOD that exists and that YOU will exist after you die

again, your arguements are nothing more than the following

"prove that it DOESNT exist"
"prove that people's experiences are real"

yet, you fail to OBSERVE REALITY and simply see the how even WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME TO DO is in itself already done.


I am not bashing people by calling them delusional. The word Delusional means EXACTLY what does people are doing...believing in something despite the obvious.
WHY do they do this and why get emotional when I am obviously stating the situation as is.

simply because they prefer to live in the matrix(fantasy) than observe reality.
nothing wrong with that.
ITS a choice


again, if you have any real questions go ahead I will reply...but nothing like
PROVE that there are no angels.
look around you. there is your answer
PROVE that he or she did not feel GOD
look around you. he or she is another person on earth..you think he/she felt GOD and the rest of the world DONT because THEY are delusional. Feeling GOd is an emotion and has NOTHING to do with reality. how do you judge if you did not feel GOD? how do you base feeling god. Feeling a presence? oh wait. YOu KNOW WHEN YOU DO. lol DELUSIONAL

oh I forgot. u did not read my post earlier

your FEELINGS are subjective...but the fact that you will NEVER know that GOD exists or not is a REALITY.

IF God exists, there is no way that you or anyone else has felt him (let me guess, prove that I have not felt him. Okay here it is. do it again. how do you do it? oh wait, god chooses to only speak with those people and not the rest. how special are they)

think about going to court with a feeling. how illogical is this yet u get angry because someone pointed out the OBVIOUS. delusional...thats all it is. NOthing wrong with it but call it as it is.

its just your consciousness filtering through your brain. Sorry to burst your bubble.


so again. Lets have some real thinkers...not just those that say "anything is possible"
no its not.
reality is what it is. Delusional is what it is.
you have a choice, and whichever one you choose is fine.
but do NOT MIX them up.

yet, you fail to OBSERVE REALITY and simply see the how even WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME TO DO is in itself already done.

I have not honestly smiled this much in ages. If you choose to be afraid of my questions and not give me real concrete proof then that is fine and I will happily accept it. You tell me it's already done but it is clearly not done. Once again, where is your concrete proof that he doesn't exist? I honestly do believe you cannot answer that and it doesn't make you bad. It's simply impossible to answer.

Please understand that whether you think you are insulting or not it is coming off that way to some here. You are simply answering a question with "I told you so." There is no other way to describe it.

I am simply stating the obvious, that people who believe in things that dont exist are delusional?

How is this statement a fact? Because you said it is?

Ok you want an honest question outside of this realm? I will bite.

What do you say to those who think you are delusional for all you say here?

Again though, you have proven nothing. The task of proving that the experiences with God are nothing more that flutters of the brain's wistful processes is not complete. So since you are the one making the charge I will say once again. Prove it. You want people to listen up and buy into what you are saying. respect that. I respect any theory and will happily work with you and study it but all you did in response to my post was dance around the subject because you have no answer for it.

you think he/she felt GOD and the rest of the world DONT because THEY are delusional.

Oh really? You are now an expert on what the rest of the world thinks? Miriam above me seems to believe it's possible and so do others here so you are clearly wrong here. Of course you will continue to spout your catchphrase that they are delusional.

your FEELINGS are subjective...but the fact that you will NEVER know that GOD exists or not is a REALITY

And your feelings are subjective as well. I respect them to the point where you insult others but I still respect them. You meanwhile do not give any real respect to the others who seem to not agree with you in this particular matter.

It's just this simple. If you could prove to me He or some other deity hasn't given an experience to someone then you have zero ground to stand on in this topic.

You've told me that I have become emotional. Wrong.

There see? You can say you weren't making fun of people. I don't buy it.

I say I am not emotional about this and frankly I am sure you won't buy that either.

I'll give you a chance if you really want to discuss this.

You made the charge you show us the concrete proof. I promise here and now that if you come up with actual proof beyond saying "It's already done" or some manner of 'I said so' then I will announce to all here that you are right.

-Kyo