Michael Moore Dares to Ask: What's So Heroic About Being Shot Down While Bombing Innocent Civilians

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
You assume we all want to live like Americans, right-wing Americans at that...gotta lose that bit of chauvanism if you ever want to understand your place in the scheme of things. There's more to the world than what you can discern from between the stars and strips, my friend..

I'm certain he does know there's more to the world since he was in the service. Trust me, you do get a good view of things outside of the US by serving. I know I have, and it wasn't all thru the sights of a weapon, either.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuckTry watching some of Moore's stuff without the blinkers on and the Right ain't so right after all.

Moore's stuff isn't even close to be a documentary. "Right ain't so right"? Guess what, the left sure doesn't hold the moral highground, either.

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come on, are you guys completely forgetting all the dictators that america PUT into power, or do you just pretend that doesnt exist because it doesnt fit your imaginary wonder world? We put WAY more dictatorships in power than democracies. But of course you just gloss over that because otherwise you and your fathers fathers lives of service to this imperial machine are worse than meaningless, they are destructive.

and furthermore, when has the right EVER been on the forefront of any fight for peoples rights and equality? The left has led every single charge, from womens rights, to african american freedom and equality, to labor rights, and the RIGHT has always been on the other side, fighting to keep them from getting it, and EDUCATING them to how for the poor ignorant masses, rights, education, and freedom only lead to laziness and lawlessness.

one more thing. Are you completely uneducated about el salvador, Columbia, Panama, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, and all the other countries that weve been involved in installing dictators, oppressing the populist uprisings, and stealing their natural resources? Do i really need to find you evidence of the 500000 philipino's we killed, the 2 million vietnamese, the 750000 cambodians and 500000 laosians?? Are you completely unaware of our involvement in elections in venezuela, italy, our involvements in the civil wars of greece, Russia, China, and cuba??? If you arent familiar with each and every one of these things, then you have NO place making any statements of authority about the GOOD america does in the world, as you obviously have no clue about our true history and what drives our policy.

Originally posted by pexx421
one more thing. Are you completely uneducated about el salvador, Columbia, Panama, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, and all the other countries that weve been involved in installing dictators, oppressing the populist uprisings, and stealing their natural resources? Do i really need to find you evidence of the 500000 philipino's we killed, the 2 million vietnamese, the 750000 cambodians and 500000 laosians?? Are you completely unaware of our involvement in elections in venezuela, italy, our involvements in the civil wars of greece, Russia, China, and cuba??? If you arent familiar with each and every one of these things, then you have NO place making any statements of authority about the GOOD america does in the world, as you obviously have no clue about our true history and what drives our policy.

....quia peccavi nimis cogitatione verbo, et opere: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Yep, the US is pretty freakin' evil, that's for sure.

How come you make it sound like everything that's every happened in the world since time began was the fault of the US?

You do know that in probably all of those cases, the Communist party was involved? Greece, Cuba, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, you name it.

I guess it's OK for them to be involved (meaning Russia and China), but if the US gets involved backing our dog in the fight, it's just wrong.

Let's look at Cambodia. Pol Pot, year Zero, forced labor camps. They figure he schwacked about 750,000 to 1.7 million of his people. Are you trying to say this is the fault of the US? Oh, I guess if we weren't involved in Southeast Asia it wouldn't have happened? The Communist didn't do any favors for the people of that area, that's for sure. There was a bloodletting that was out of this world after the US left.

ok, lets look at pol pot. His party was losing until we killed a huge mass of the population there, and thus he was able to take over of the desolation that we left behind. Now, im certainly not saying that ALL the bad in the world was caused by the US, BUT i am certain that the US was single handedly responsible for more of it than any other single entity. As to communists being involved in all those things, well, if the majorities of those populations WANTED that communism, well that should have been their choice to make, not ours. But no, i dont think that russia had much to do with panama, el salvador, the philipines, the original Cuba schism, the Shah in Iran, Chile's Pinochet, Indonesia's Suharto, Iraqs saddam, Nicaraguas Samozas, Zaire's Mobuto, and Cuba's Batista. The majority of these were done with our aid suppressing their peasants populist uprising as they fought for their rights and basic necessities. So please, now name me as many put up and supported by the USSR, and show me the Millions murdered directly by the USSR as well. Not to say that they didnt do their share, but as america has the lions share of the worlds profits, and uses the lions share of the worlds resources, we also are responsible for the lions share of the worlds murder and wars.

Originally posted by pexx421
So please, now name me as many put up and supported by the USSR, and show me the Millions murdered directly by the USSR as well. Not to say that they didnt do their share, but as america has the lions share of the worlds profits, and uses the lions share of the worlds resources, we also are responsible for the lions share of the worlds murder and wars.

China is in Africa right now. And they ain't there taking pictures of the animals. They are grabbing resources. I'm sure they are paying a fair price for whatever they are obtaining, right? Right?

Latvia, Lithuania, Estona. Three small countries that were overrun by the Soviets in WW2. Lithuania was occupied by the Soviets in 1940 (against their will, part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact), then retaken by them after the Germans retreated at the end of the war. They were still fighting the Russians in the early 1970s. This was their war of Independance. Guys fighting the Russians got "disappeared" into the Gulags. This is pretty much the same for Estonia and Latvia.

East Prussia, 1945. Look up a place called Nemmersdorf. They felt the hand of friendship of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union there.

Heck, the Soviets killed their own people. Check out "The Great Purge" in 1937-38.

Did the US start WW1? WW2? Korea? Vietnam was already ongoing when we got involved in that. What about the invasion of Kuwait?

"Lions share of the worlds murder and war" my ass. We aren't angels, but you might want to wind your neck in for blaming the US for everything.

we didnt start WWII but we sure funded it for both sides before we got involved (and continued after for some of us Cough bush Cough). As to Vietnam, it would have ended if we hadnt got involved, and it would have ended with the majority of the country intact and the majority of the civilians alive, and if we had intervened in the BEGINNING they may even have had a chance at a decent democracy. So, you name a few countries....where are the numbers? I didnt state that those other countries didnt have some atrocities to their names. My point was that the NUMBER and SCOPE of americas far outshines theirs. We installed 25 different dictators in different countries since WW2, and we have been involved in dropping bombs on 20 different countries, 20 coups, 6 assasinations of heads of state. How has any other single country compared to that??

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by manson_322
lol, this is the biggest load of BS, I ever read.....

Sorry about that, Gus. It's the LOAC. Google it, I'm tired of schooling you.

Originally posted by manson_322 read here:

Power plants,grids,sewerage treatment etc are indispensable for the populace

proves Mc Cain is a war criminal who should be tried in Hague for bombing civilian power plant as it is violation of Geneva convention

Hmmm, really? What about during WW2? The allies destroyed everything that was on that list? Guess they all should be tried as war criminals, huh?

It can be a target if it's supplying a war industry. If it's a plant supply some civilian city with no military purpose, you can't bomb it.

It can be a target if it's supplying a war industry. If it's a plant supply some civilian city with no military purpose, you can't bomb it.

clearly, geneva conventions permit , the bombing of the war industry in such a case , not civilian power plant...

Hmmm, really? What about during WW2? The allies destroyed everything that was on that list? Guess they all should be tried as war criminals, huh?

there were no geneva convnetions then ....

as McCain violated the geneva convnetions , it makes him a international war criminal , who must be tried for his war crimes in vietnam , in Hague


[edit on 28-8-2008 by manson_322]

Originally posted by jerico65 "Right ain't so right"? Guess what, the left sure doesn't hold the moral highground, either.

Thank you. Too many folks...idealogues (on either side)...would not acknowlege even that much. I'm not forgetting that it was the Liberal party (centre-left...equivalent to the Dems) in our government that got us into Afghanistan. As if the Russians were able to tame that snake pit...and they don't even pretend to play nice. And we're gonna fix it? I don't think so.

But getting back on subject, I see the ditto-heads roaring about Moore's investments in Haliburtan and GM, citing his hypocracy...do we know if it was part of a mutual plan or a package that his broker bought into? Or did he see the bandwagon rolling by and say "Clive, buy me into those death-merchants cuz the movies aren't providing me enough pork chops!" It matters...and if you don't see the difference then even elections must seem like a socialist conspiracy.

Originally posted by manson_322

clearly, geneva conventions permit , the bombing of the war industry in such a case , not civilian power plant...

You can't bomb a civilian plant, that's true, but what was the target? Was is strictly civilian? Military? Both???

Originally posted by manson_322
there were no geneva convnetions then ....

You're right. They used the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. Or the Geneva Protocol from 1925 that dealt with gas/bio weapons. The Geneva Conventions you're quoting from were from after WW2, but that doesnt mean that there were no Laws of Warfare prior.

Originally posted by manson_322 as McCain violated the geneva convnetions , it makes him a international war criminal , who must be tried for his war crimes in vietnam , in Hague

Well, until you got proof he violated the convention, you're just whistling in the wind.

[edit on 28-8-2008 by jerico65]

reply to post by jerico65

Well, until you got prove he violated the convention, you're just whistling in the wind.

bombing a civilian power plant is against Geneva conventions (article 54)

and an admission by American war criminal John McCain himself:

During the month of October, 1997, some 30 years after the shootdown of John McCain, some 24 years after McCain returned to the United States, a 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace aired on CBS. John McCain, being herald as the potential GOPs nominee for President in the year 2,000, stated that he was a war criminal because he had bombed, "innocent women and children."
www.ojc.org...

www.therationalradical.com...

enough said ,

Time to depot McCain to Hague to stand trial for war crimes against humanity

Originally posted by manson_322
bombing a civilian power plant is against Geneva conventions (article 54)

Do you just cut and past your posts from previous ones? Do you have anything to support this claim that it was a strictly civilian power plant?

Originally posted by manson_322

and an admission by American war criminal John McCain himself:

During the month of October, 1997, some 30 years after the shootdown of John McCain, some 24 years after McCain returned to the United States, a 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace aired on CBS. John McCain, being herald as the potential GOPs nominee for President in the year 2,000, stated that he was a war criminal because he had bombed, "innocent women and children."
www.ojc.org...

www.therationalradical.com...

enough said ,

Time to depot McCain to Hague to stand trial for war crimes against humanity

Got a source for this interview, besides two websites that are a bit on the biased side?

Just found a few sites about this, and the power plant was in central hanoi.

According to

Article 51: Protection of the Civilian Population
5.
b.an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

The attack was therefore against the GC, as it was in a heavily populated part of Hanoi.

Here's what else proves he's not the hero he makes himself out to be:

After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.

When the communist learned that McCain's father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., the soon-to-be commander of all U.S. Forces in the Pacific, he was rushed to Gai Lam military hospital (U.S. government documents), a medical facility normally unavailable for U.S. POWs.

source

and:

For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

For years, McCain has been an unchecked master at manipulating an overly friendly and biased news media. The former POW turned Congressman, turned U.S. Senator, has managed to gloss over his failures as a pilot and collaborations with the enemy by exaggerating his military service and lying about his feats of heroism.

McCain has sprouted a halo and wings to become America's POW-hero presidential candidate.

source

It seems he holds himself in much higher regard than his fellow armed forces personnel.

All for political mileage. quelle surprise

Originally posted by budski
Just found a few sites about this, and the power plant was in central hanoi.

According to

Article 51: Protection of the Civilian Population
5.
b.an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

The attack was therefore against the GC, as it was in a heavily populated part of Hanoi.

It was off limits, then the ROE changed and put it on the targeting list. Find the guy that did that and complain about the violation of the GC.

Originally posted by budski

Here's what else proves he's not the hero he makes himself out to be:
source
source

I've been to that site several times. What a joke. How about something that's not so biased? Like someone coming up with something on Obama, and the site is "obamaisthedevil.com".

This site is the one that complains about his loss of five aircraft, like being shot down and the Forrestal fire were his fault.

At one time, their site said that there were Marines in combat that would have traded place with McCain when he was in the Hanoi Hilton. They took that off after realizing what a bunch of BS that statement was.

[edit on 28-8-2008 by jerico65]

reply to post by jerico65


The ROE are subject to the GC in the same way the pilots and commanders were - unsign the treaty if you're not going to abide by it.

Now, how about you address some of the issues instead of hiding behind the same old chestnut of attacking the source.

So far I've seen nothing from you to back up any claims you make - and let's not forget this thread is about mccain.
When obama does something equally repulsive, then I'll be sure to post it, but THIS thread is about the political opportunist that is John McCain.

So please, stop with the deflection and address the issue.