Chemtrails : I don't think you understand.

Let there be an end to the 'its a contrail' post.

Contrails are condensation trails. con-den-sa-tion.

The main products of hydrocarbon fuel combustion are carbon dioxide and water vapor. At high altitudes this water vapor emerges into a cold environment, and the local increase in water vapor can push the water content of the air past saturation point. The vapor then condenses into tiny water droplets and/or deposits into ice. - Wikipedia

Now read this next part very, very carefully.

Chemtrails persist for hours and turn into large clouds. This is not the activity of bits of ice. Ice melts. Contrails dissipate. This is the nature of science - it can not be any other way. Ice forms, then melts. Please read this repeatedly until it completely sinks in. Ice forms, hangs out, then melts. This is completely normal as this is what ice is suppose to do.

Chemtrails persist for hours and turn into large clouds.

There is a massive difference. The two things are completely different because they are caused by completely different things.

It is NOT POSSIBLE for contrails - which are made of ICE to spread into large clouds which blanket massive areas. NOT POSSIBLE.

It is NOT POSSIBLE for ice to act one way sometimes, then another way other times when the CAUSES and ENVIRONMENT are 'supposedly' similar.

Nothing anyone can say makes this possible. N O T H I N G. Science absolutely prohibits this. Please understand that.

Please, for the absolute love of god - watch these videos.





[edit on 22-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]

[edit on 22-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]

reply to post by LoveKnowledge


I am not familiar with your forum.

What you say would seem self explanatory.

First clue, the two words are different.

Is this confusion still in play. And so much so that a new thread is required?

What have you guys been talking about all these years?

Isn't this day 1, welcome to the forum stuff?

[edit on 8/22/2008 by schrodingers dog]

I'm posting this because there are a lot of people who say chemtrails are not real and they are in fact just contrails. If this myth has already been dispelled please forgive my ignorance and feel free to remove this thread.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]

reply to post by LoveKnowledge


I hear you about contrails. That is pretty straight forward. But lets also have an end to its an evil contrail - lets call it a chemtrail.

From your own source, Wikipedia a few points to consider when you think you have spotted a chemtrail:

- Contrails can remain visible for very long periods of time with the lifetime a function of the temperature, humidity, winds, and aircraft exhaust characteristics.
- Contrails can form many shapes as they are dispersed by horizontal and vertical wind shear.
- Sunlight refracted or reflected from contrails can produce vibrant and eye-catching colors and patterns.
- Observation and scientific analysis of contrails and their duration date back to at least 1953.
- The National Airspace System of the United States is oriented in an east-west and north-south grid with aircraft flying at designated 2000-foot increments of elevation (1000 feet after the introduction of Reduced Vertical Separation Minima in 2002-2004).
- Contrails formed by aircraft may appear to form a grid as the winds disperse the contrails.
- More contrails are seen in recent years due to the growth in the civil aviation market.
.

Unless i am horribly mistaken.....(possibility) a chemtrail is a contrail with some alleged compound / chemical that is believed to serve a purpose that is unknown to the general public. These purposes include climate control, Hegemonic mind control and or some involvement in biological control.....

or it could just be a con(densation)trail. Which is more logical?

reply to post by LoveKnowledge


Are you kidding-just because some people come to conclusions about chemtrails doesn't mean it's not up for debate, it gets chatted about fairly often around here.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

reply to post by Nerevar


It doesn't have to be either/or all the time.

Look I'd say that bit from Wikipedia is a little strange...claiming grid patterns are caused by wind?? huh?

OK yes that could happen, but the grids that are laid out as grids, of which there are many photos, hey they don't need no stinkin wind. Is this the attempt of the author of this fine Wikipedia article to explain why grids of white smoke appear in the sky? The wind?

You would expect a wind swept contrail to be rather asymmetrical no? But what about those GRIDS just hanging out no wind??

reply to post by Pilot


No. I'm very serious. This is science, not my opinion.

I'm very ready to address every scientific aspect of this to lay this aspect of chemtrails to rest.

edited to remove my rudeness.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]

Originally posted by Nerevar
Unless i am horribly mistaken.....(possibility) a chemtrail is a contrail with some alleged compound / chemical that is believed to serve a purpose that is unknown to the general public. These purposes include climate control, Hegemonic mind control and or some involvement in biological control.....

or it could just be a con(densation)trail. Which is more logical?

This is about ice, not much more. I live in Houston Texas, "summer" is like 9 months of the year. Our humidity levels are absolutely out of control. It's like walking in a freaking sauna. Yet people would have me believe that those strange trails in the sky which last for hours are made of ICE. I've had several experiences just like the videos above where there is a chemtrail and a regular contrail very near by. It's VERY easy to see that one goes away fairly quickly and the other has been there ALL FREAKING DAY.

Like I said, this is about ice as ice is the main component in 'contrails'.

Originally posted by LoveKnowledge

It is NOT POSSIBLE for contrails - which are made of ICE to spread into large clouds which blanket massive areas. NOT POSSIBLE.

So you're basically saying then that all meteorologists for the past 60 or 70 years have been wrong, don't understand anything about contrails or cloud formation and have been wasting their time studying how and why contrails persist and spread out into clouds - which consist of ice particles - sometimes covering the whole sky?

For example An Empirical Model to Predict Widespread Occurrences of Contrails - Travis eta 1996

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not real.

More info:

Aircraft Contrails Factsheet

You may also find this interesting:

www.usatoday.com...

Originally posted by LoveKnowledge

This is about ice, not much more. I live in Houston Texas, "summer" is like 9 months of the year. Our humidity levels are absolutely out of control. It's like walking in a freaking sauna. Yet people would have me believe that those strange trails in the sky which last for hours are made of ICE.

Yes.ice. Do you know how cold it is 30,000ft feet above sea level?

Here's a recent atmospheric sounding from Fort Worth, Texas

You'll note that at ground level the temperature was 32.6C whereas at 30,000ft - 9144m - (typical cruising height for a commercial airliner flying from Florida to California, for example) it was -30.2C That's quite cold

Note also how there is big variatipns in relative humidity at different altitudes.

Believe me, we're not making all this up. It's been well known since before WWII and extensively studied ever since.

All it takes is a functioning brain, with life experience, to realize that the world is an oyster...The potential and possibilities are endless.

They only appear limited to many, as we lack the experience, (and the perceived lack of resources), in order to see the bigger picture beyond ourselves and what is sold to us through the media.

Remember, the dreamers are the ones who move the world with their inventions - not the people who cant dream the impossible. - Imagine the many things we take for granted now...most, if not all, would be thought of as impossible only a few years ago - and looked at as magic by others.

Contrail or Chemtrail - who cares?
Or better put, what is in a name?

People, as I have mentioned before, get lost in the details - of which often are misunderstood and incorrect. It would benefit people to look at the larger picture first...and let the smaller bits fall into place.

For me the most absurd idea is that a plane cant or doesnt spray.
We know for a fact that planes spray.

Just this past Wednesday, here in Budapest, we had the largest holiday of the year.
They had a group of jets doing tricks - (Looked like the Hungarian version of the Blue Angels in Pensacola.)

Anyway, they were spraying, and no one would have questioned or said other wise if you were to ask them. The spray would come on for the tricks, and turn off when they stopped, etc. And the spray was in pattern (meaning that they did not obstruct the other spraying path.)

So, Im stating the obvious - but the obvious, ironically enough, seems to be discounted by so called 'pros' as the impossible.

I believe that this happens whenever someone feels trapped and doesnt have an answer that satisfies their perspective.

What do I mean?
Well the spray looked and acted exactly like the spray that I have posted on my flicr site before. In fact, if they had been at high altitude and not buzzing our head, they would have made a nice pic as an example of the daily spraying that goes on.

All of the 'debunking' of the spray coming out of planes just went out the door - as this showed, what was obvious, that planes can & do spray.

The question is what are they spraying?
And more than that, why are they spraying?

If the stuff that came out of these jets look just like the stuff that is up high - then its not contrails...that does look different. (Others have made this point as well - just to have detractors become upset - perhaps due to the fact that it draws peoples attention to the truth...or more so it challenges their perception of truth.)

I will say, there is nothing you can say to someone who is set in their belief.
If they are set in the idea that it is only contrails in the sky - then you can argue till the cow comes home - show as many pics as you want...(Im sure they would say the pics of these jets doing tricks are contrails...even though the pilots and people watching it would say different.)

The point is not to awaken those who want to hide, for whatever reason it is - the point is to help those who have not yet taken the step out to realize that the world is not exactly what it seems to them.

For many its a comfy place, (and I dont argue that it isnt), where only the good guys win, and everyone is looking after you.
Slowly, people wake up and begin to realize that just because someone has resources and power - does not mean that they necessarily have the good, (at least what you consider good), in mind.

This can be scary at first, and its at this that most people go back to believing whatever it is that keeps their idea of life in tact. (Keeps them sane.)

To each their own, and their is a timing for everything.

For those who are willing, then its time to take a look - and at the same time, realize that just because the world is not what you 'think' - does not make it a dangerous place.

Everything has a time and purpose again...and when you realize this - everything, including conspiracies, seem to fall into place. (You go beyond it, so to speak.)

Hard putting these things into words.
Cause in the end, the most important things are the simplest - one of them namely, is just enjoying what it is you have now, and not fearing change.

Change is inevitable - if you can learn how to steer it, then you have mastered life - and the world is your stage.

There are those who have mastered it and the world is their stage...for many, we are their puppets. But in the bigger scheme of things, that isnt even true. At the root level, we are all 'one' and here to experience and to learn and to evolve past most of the childish things that we currently think and do. (i.e., fighting, wars...bickering about what country wins the olympics...whenever people are switching nationalities just to compete in the games anyway, etc.)

Lengthy post...but there it is.

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - I may get around to posting some of the pics on the flicker account of the jets spraying...what everyone would agree (at least here in Budapest) is spray.
And how uncanny the similarities are between it and the spray that we see in day to day life - which clouds up our skies...doesnt look like fast disappearing con trails.
Yes, my flicker pics can be seen/linked to, by going to my blog linked at bottom.
Give it a few days before you go to check...I have plane pics up, but not those. (Again, it wont do anything to convince anyone...just there to look at.)


[edit on 22-8-2008 by dAlen]

reply to post by Essan


Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Let me sharpen my point as I'm referring to one specific thing.

Please note the picture on page 3 of the PDF. Note how those contrails are at very high alt.? This is completely normal. I have absolutely no problem with this. The trails I'm referring to completely disobey the laws of contrails. I have personally observed these trails at well below 23,000 ft.

Please note the picture in the USA today article. This is nothing like what I am referring to. Please refer to the first video in my first post. That is what I am talking about. I am going to bring my other hard drive online as I have dozens of high resolution photos of chemtrails which I've personally taken over the course of months.

Please note this part from your other source :

Contrails form as a result of the relatively warm aircraft exhausts mixing with the cold ambient air of the middle and upper troposphere. Since most aircraft cruise at altitudes of between 10 and 13 km (typically the 300–100-mb layer), the temperature at contrail level is typically −40°C or colder (Beckwith 1972; Gayet et al. 1996). As a result, most water droplets are thought to freeze spontaneously after contrail formation (Pilie and Jiusto 1958; Boin and Levkov 1994). Once a contrail is produced it typically will last only a short time if the ambient humidity is low, and may never be evident from ground level. Only during a unique range of favorable conditions will contrails persist and spread, both horizontally and vertically, producing a cloudlike sky.

Thank you.

Do note, I live in Houston, not Forth Worth. Our weather is very different.



[edit on 22-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]

reply to post by LoveKnowledge


I was using Fort Worth as an example

But do you now accept that you're original assertion - that contrails cannot spread out and form cirrus clouds - was wrong? And that all available meteorological evidence shows that they can and do according to atmospheric conditions?

If so, then all you need do now is show - beyond any reasonable doubt - that such persistent contrails as you have observed occurred when the atmospheric conditions were not conducive to persistent contrail formation.

To that you need to know the exact altitude at which the aircraft was flying and the air temperature and humidity at that altitude.

Unfortunately atmospheric soundings are not available for Houston - the nearest place looks to be Lake Charles in Louisiana. Soundings (for all over the USA as well as the rest of the world) can be obtained from here:

weather.uwyo.edu...

Originally posted by Essan
reply to post by LoveKnowledge

 

But do you now accept that you're original assertion - that contrails cannot spread out and form cirrus clouds - was wrong? And that all available meteorological evidence shows that they can and do according to atmospheric conditions?

I will gladly accept this.

Will you accept this ?

Once a contrail is produced it typically will last only a short time if the ambient humidity is low, and may never be evident from ground level. Only during a unique range of favorable conditions will contrails persist and spread, both horizontally and vertically, producing a cloudlike sky.

You said..

If so, then all you need do now is show - beyond any reasonable doubt - that such persistent contrails as you have observed occurred when the atmospheric conditions were not conducive to persistent contrail formation.

I have personally observed aircraft forming trails at less than 23,000 ft. I have personally observed the trail of this craft 'flick off' for a second then come right back on full tilt. None of this should be possible. I know it was less than 23k feet because there are several big buildings nearby to gauge by AND the size of the aircraft was very large, it was obvious the jet was close.

Additionally, there are a great great many people who observe the same thing. Remember that this is just some particular jets and just some of the time. I noted that for one month during the morning hours and at about 5pm a small hand full of jets put off very persistent trails while the other 95% put off regular trails. This does not square with the scientific description of contrails as these jets are all in similar airspace and sometimes at similar altitudes.

We are not in a situation where 50% put off the typical stream and the other 50% do the other type. We are in a situation where 95%+ put off the regular stream which I have observed for my entire life. Then you have this 5% which put off an entirely different type of trail.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]

reply to post by LoveKnowledge


Chemtrails may not actually be made of chemicals at all, therefore whatever they are when they are NOT contrails is what to discuss. By simply stating there are chemicals, when maybe there are not would not serve the 'chemtrail theory' justice.

I say we should refer to the quite obvious "spraying" in the air, by who for what reason must be looked at by all. Push aside any 'debunker' on these threads (there are 4 regulars that will jump on this thread (1 already has) and 'debunk' everything they HAVE NOT SEEN with there own eyes, unlike you me and a zillion other people.

You are on the right track by simply discussing these NON-CONTRAILS and it is great to see MORE and MORE people waking up to the "sprays" from these high and low altitude jets (I have only ever seen them emitted from jets).

NON-CONTRAILS are an issue as they are there for god knows what reason, some suggested in this forum have a few theories as to 'why', and if the NWO wants a world population wiped out so they can control the remaining few with ease. The question is what will you and I do to expose these criminals and their blatant criminal activities?

Thanks for your post, well worth the read. And keep your eyes on our skies. Because it will not be long before the topic will be perpetrated via mass media as "oh these things have always been there!" or "due to more aircraft, that's why you see them", maybe even a "its for research of: (take your pick)".

Z


[edit on 22-8-2008 by watchZEITGEISTnow]

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by LoveKnowledge
I have personally observed these trails at well below 23,000 ft.

Again, as I have asked before, without visual references, looking straight up, without the aid of radar, how are you estimating height here?

23,000ft is 4.35 miles.
15,000ft is 2.84 miles
10,000ft is 1.89 miles.
5,000ft is 0.94 miles

I have answered you multiple times on this point. I live within walking distance of downtown houston which contains a slurry of tall buildings. One can use these buildings to gauge vertical distance. There is a highrise and a commercial building within 4 blocks of me - these can also be used to gauge distance.

Finally and most importantly. I've spent a lot of time at the side of a run way. I've spent a lot of time watching planes just after take off. I know how big a commercial jet is (visually). So when I look up and see a jet by noting its size I can roughly determine its difference. If the jet is big it's close - if it's small it's far.

As I said to you in another thread - I ran cross country and track for some number of years. I have run countless repetitions of set distances (100m, 200m, 400m, 600m, 800m, 1200m, 1600m, etc). Countless. We use to practice twice day, once at 6am and again after school.

I use to LIVE under a flight path so I've seen THOUSANDS of jets on take off and approach - THOUSANDS. This means I've observed a great many jets at low altitude.

-I lived within 10 miles of Houston Hobby for over 2 years.

-I also lived within 10 miles of IAH for 1 year.

-I worked across the street (LITERALLY) from Hobby for almost 1 year.

-For the BULK of my life I got a 'front row seat' at the landing path for a MILITARY airport was literally in my front yard.

Now, if you combine these factors it makes me quiet good at gauging vertical distance aka if a jet is 'close' or 'far', 23k feet or less than 10k.

Please look at your own examples :

23,000 ft and 5,000 ft.

The size of a jet at each difference is QUIET noticeable. Surely we can agree on this.

[edit on 22-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]

[edit on 22-8-2008 by LoveKnowledge]

So here we go:

Budapest, Wednesday 20th, 2008.
Jet airshow where they are spraying.

1) No, I did not say chemicals...I said, 'spraying'.
Its important to realize that planes do spray - (for whatever various reasons)
This is quite obvious, however it is still overlooked by many and erroneously debunked by others.

2) If you admit planes spray then:
2a) You have no idea what may or may not be sprayed.
2b) Why is the spray there (sometimes you know straight up - like an air show...but what about the daily 'air shows' that are supposed to be normal flight traffic who leaves the same trail in the sky...and we are not talking about the normal contrails here.

So here are my pics of the air show...where we all know the obvious, (those of us there watching and the pilots), that the jets are spraying as part of the show for entertainment. (no contrail, etc., but good ol' artificial something.)

(And again, note the uncanny similarities to their trails - produced artificially - to those that are seen on almost a day to day basis in our skies - which is the ongoing talk/discussion of the internet.)

The question then goes from, "Can they spray" (Which we know they can and have done for various reasons), but why is there spray in the sky on a day to day basis outside of things like the obvious, ie., airshows, etc.

Jet Pics

Peace

dAlen

reply to post by neformore


You've already made it more than clear than unless we have a scope at our disposal we can't prove anything because we can't prove altitude.

By this measure no evidence will ever be good enough for you especially since you have CONSTANTLY called in question my ability to gauge vertical distance because to you its 'hard'.

I have perfect vision and have observed more jets than I'm sure you ever have. That is of course unless you work at an airport, are a pilot of have lived within 10 miles of more than 3 airports for the majority of your life. I'm not some 15 year old who hasn't had a taste of life yet. I'm almost 30 and have been observing the sky for some time. But alas, I have no super expensive scientific equipment available only to