Simply put: Skeptics, I know it's hard...

You must understand, I've looked into september 11th for about 2 years..... and quite a few months ago, I decided I was going to stop looking into it because there was enough evide4nce for me there as a rational human being to look and go "Something was messed up here."

The main culprit of stealing my confidence of the official story away was building 7. I'd been puzzled about building 7 from the very time it fell. This is what got me to know 100 percent that 9/11 was such a load of crap fed to us, that it must be our underground wake up call towards expanded consciousness... because once it becomes clear, everything becomes clearer. If you are still stuck on defending the 9/11 lie, you need to stop. Use the resources on this site to expand your consciousness a little, instead of wasting time trying to wash laymen over who saw something obvious happen with their own trustworthy eyes with all of your scientific and mathematical estimates. You can make numbers and coordinates fit anything if you crunch them enough... and who are you gunna prove it to? The laymen? They saw something wrong with the other scientific theories like the pancake theory and the "building seven was built on unique foundations" theory. Just because you disguise bull# propaganda under numbers and figures doesn't mean everyone is stupid enough to accept it blindly because you are a professed expert. Once you've created your own baby existence and become God, then I'll trust your expertise against the little I know. Nobody knows much more than me. If they did know instead of pretending to be in positions of knowing and doing everything in their power to keep their reputations, this world wouldn't be so #ed up, now would it?

It's been almost 7 years to the day, and within that seven years, I have not seen any bit of information, no matter how drenched in scientific knowhow it is, that could show me how a building with very fractional and relatively small (compared to the size of the building and damage recieved to other similar buildings) damage, no "raging" fires, and not hit by any 500 mph jet packed with jet fuel, could basically crumble with global and almost perfectly even collapse. If the odds were as high as that, I know from memory seeing at least four other buildings farther away from tower 1 and 2 that were badly damaged, yet standing. Even the towers 4,5,6 (maybe it was just two of the towers.... it's been awhile since I even cared) where whole huge pieces of the towers fell right on top of.... had to be demolished and were not completely collapsed , even with all that damage!!! If building 7 was so flimsy, why was it an emergency FEMA command center, home to FBI,CIA, offices of several large banks and lenders and yaday yada and enron and security risks?

Common sense. Even a laymen can ask those questions.... and that's examining only one tiny piece of it in very small detail.

I just don't get how this could have gotten so much exposure, yet still be so in the dark. The "smoking gun" is right there in front of you. Look at the video, and quiet the voice in your head going "noooo, that's impossible. America would never do that." Because America would, will, has, and alway WILL do that because we are owned by the same #ing people we've always been owned by, just in different disguises... corporations and credit card companies and fraudulent government systems. Don't you get it yet?

Why don't you get it yet? There's so much more after this. You're so frickin' late to the party. You must come and join the party crashing the "yay for us white american humans doing the world a big favor by being god's gift to nature" parade.

Once you realize this, the gates will open... and in a couple of years, you may look back upon your former self in awe of how much of a primitive mode of thinking you were locked into, partially by free will thinking it's easier to be comfortable either playing the victim or playing the system, partially by thousands and thousands of hours spent being brainwashed by media, educational systems, and society in response to the systems set in place. We can't talk to the people who designed the framework for modern society and passive fascism, but what a bunch of "Evil Geniuses".
It's these very philosophers and social scientists that Create our social philosophies and attitudes, and to ignore some of the astonishingly sinister things that people such as Leo Strausse, Zbignew Brazinsky, Marx, and other philosophers and elites of the socal heirarchy have had to say about what should be done about people, for people, in the name of people, for the people's own good... Many modern and very powerful and elite people ruling the world, making our decisions for us since we're too busy buying what they're selling to care, are hugely influenced by the philosophies of social engineering and control of the masses and political ideologies. Why do you think evil dictators have been studied in such depth. Why do you think we brought Nazis over here by the thousands to work in our most secretive areas of science and politics after WWII? Are evil people suddenly not to be found in the USA?

Are our leaders trustworthy? Why should we trust one damn thing any official word says, when every official word in order to be considered an "official word" is already bought and paid for by the fine people who brought you the past two terms and the past two wars, and no doubt the september 11th 2001 event which triggered it all???

I understand an impressionable young skeptic still sniffing around dormrooms for fresh pootenany would have seemingly much better things other than figuring out the great conspiracies and cover ups of our day to devote the majority of his awareness to... but awareness is more than just processing information at a secondhand value, and taking that value for what its worth and running with it. My rule is that it's always gotta agree or disagree with my built in bull# meter before I dismiss it or before I accept it.

If someone told you that the average human adult measured 4 and a half feet tall, gave you pictures with overlaying graphical measurements, gave you graps, gave you complex equations which you wouldn't know what to do with, gave you this barrage of information stating that the average human is 4 feet tall.... even if you didn't know measurements or human anatomy, I'm pretty sure the BS would register with just a simple glance at others.cont'd

It's been almost 7 years to the day, and within that seven years, I have not seen any bit of information, no matter how drenched in scientific knowhow it is, that could show me how a building with very fractional and relatively small (compared to the size of the building and damage recieved to other similar buildings) damage, no "raging" fires, and not hit by any 500 mph jet packed with jet fuel, could basically crumble with global and almost perfectly even collapse

Then you obviously need to do some more research. Because the video, picture and FDNY statements about WTC 7 do not talk about or show a building that has "very fractional and relatively small damage" and small fires.

They show a building heavily damaged and in the late afternoon burning quite ferociously. The FDNY statments also mention their certainty that WTC 7 was going to collapse at some point from the damage it suffered and the fires that were raging.

NOW, after you do some proper research...get back to us.

Question for you:

If there really is a cover up, if the plane crashes really are so unbelievable....

Are you ready for this...?

Why wouldn't they just have said the buildings were wired by terrorists to explode, and forgotten any nonsense with planes to begin with?

Think about it: which is more plausible to believe? The conspiracy masterminds want to set it up like it's terrorists:

A) Get them on planes, get them to learn how to fly planes, hijack said planes, risk being taken down by any brave people on the planes, coordinate the planes to hit the towers, WHILE still rigging the buildings to go down, and WHILE knowing that even "laymen" (as you say) could see through the fact that these puny planes couldn't possibly take the towers down alone.

B) Wire the buildings to blow, and blame it on terrorists.

You tell me.

More on the [snip] meter. It can come in handy... but you've gotta calibrate it so it's dead set on neutral.

You must accept that, in a universe of seemingly infinite possibilities and discovery which we haven't even begun to explore in the least little spoonful, there are things that are possible, probable, likely due to circumstance, unlikely due to circumstance, things that are obviously psychos babbling about how freddy flinstone lives in the macaroni box and the Aliens are all clones of Hitler, things that are interesting but not yet proveable with hard data (from our perspective, at the quantum level, data could decide to become soft on us), things that seem outlandish yet coherent, things that you know from direct experience.... and the [snip] meter provides levels of stinkiness to compensate for the spectrum of quality and relevant information floating around out there. If things work out correctly, your [snip] meter should eventually learn to calibrate itself mostly... but the first and only calibration you should make on your [snip] meter is to take all the pre-dispositioned thoughts on how society and politics seem work in a polite and clean efficient professional manner and oh how nice and convenient and not blinding that is at all, and throw them out the window... because in the end, it's about who benefits. Who has benefited from all this fighting and killing? The US? Iraq? Iran? Afghanistan? Citizens, not the damn governments. Stop looking at countries. Stop looking at governments. They are not the people. None of them. They don't represent anything except the propagandized view the elite want to sell to you, to its people, to other government officials who might not understand the game. This is all about the people.... not any nation, state, race, nationality. [snip] all of that, man. [snip] your gun rights. [snip] the Illegals takin yer jerbs, [snip] "black violence" or "white apathy" or all of that [snip] , or republican or democrat or Islam or Christian or Hebrew or whatever the [snip] your lie of a religion is (something is a lie in each of them, or they'd all paint a very similar picture... which the inner teachings do, but that's for another thread in another forum...).

No, my friends... 9/11 comes down to "who benefited and kept all the spoils and had the power to withhold the information and was proven time and time again to have done without so much as a skip of a beat.... and who suffered with nothing but loss, fear, hate, radicalization and mental manipulation and media desensitization and killings and diseases and death up against war superpowers just mercilessly exploding villiages and bombing cities....all over a few "terrorists" who were probably not at all unaware, and left because of an early warning system.

I don't give a [snip] about your job and your acceptability by all the fatass overboozed wastoids down at the local pub. It is meaningless in the face of what a stupid goddamn thing like the complete [snip] sandwich we were fed called 9/11 terrorism has done to divert our attention away from
our free will. A public doesn't think ratiobnally when it is afraid. A public doesn't think rationally when it is bombarded by electronic signals constantly (our bodies are very open in terms of travelling signals go. They travel pretty well through us since we're mostly water). A public does not think nor communicate clearly when rarely anyone speaks without adhering to certain unspoken conversational boundaries that have somehow been subliminally set in place by [snip] GUESS WHO???

I'm not saying people are stupid at all... but I'm surprised, the part of me that remains the hardcore radical I was upon first hearing of all this stuff, the one that wanted to blow up the Statue of Liberty after seeing V for Vendetta.... I thought people would mostly be as angry as I was by now...

but nobody cares yet again. Yet again, fringe research is considered crazy...

Yet again "oooh the conspiracy nut again hehe what a nut" is heard just past your conversation circle. I guess things have to get worse before it gets better... but what is it? Why are people afraid to accept this especially now when oil prices are being held over our heads like we're starving scrapfood dogs, when we know full well the technology for affordable and completely renewable and perhaps perpetual energy solutions exist throughout the world?

Just look at how much of a slave we are to Corporate Fascism now. It's the worst of all because Corporate Fascism IS Big Brother, the NWO...

Who wants to be best friends and intimate roommates with Big Business? Sounds like something if I didn't look at that sentence twice I would go "Eww an old fat man with a young boy fetish sharing my living quarters!?" gross! Yet, we're almost to that point... where google and other manufacturers are actually planning on spying on us in order to provide us with even more personalized advertisment.

My question really really becomes..... Skeptics, why must you disagree with something just to disagree?

This is an obvious case. Book permanently closed. All angles have pointed me, both inward searching and outward searching, to a balanced conclusion.

My conclusion was that there was something wrong with the way the towers, all three.... two planes bringing down two building said by a WTC engineer that it would be like poking a pen through a steel mesh screen. That part of the whole story is so covoluted that it doesn't matter. It's building 7 that raises my BS meter to a plus 10 and clinches the deal, without even examining the pentagon OR Pennsylvania OR hearing witness testimony OR anything other than "watch this" and watch WTC7 fall straight down into its own footprint for no reason, should not have happened at all and the only reason people were expecting it is because it had been hours of repetition of the "building is gunna fall any minute, any minute"

Once the building 7 fell, I'm sure that was the first pile that got cleared ASAP. That was enough for me. You can't change my mind now. Someone else perpetrated the whole thing... and I can't even say it was "our government"... because if it was ours truly, why were two elections rigged and why does [snip] never change? Other than high and lower this or that... nothing ever changes. Whatever band of high rolling theives "governs" the "government" within a "government" is the responsible party. It's thuggery and fear, on a large scale.





Mod Note: Profanity removed. Please see Terms and Conditions of Use section 1b) Profanity. Thank you - Jak


[edit on 20/8/08 by JAK]

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
More on the bull# meter. It can come in handy... but you've gotta calibrate it so it's dead set on neutral....words words words ...rant rant rant...more words...etc

In other words:

"I have not a single shred of evidence to support my fantasy"

Another truther rant filled with zero substance.

reply to post by thrashee


His post was pretty much about WTC7, which wasn't hit by any planes. So why bring them up in your A)?

You don't see how it might be hard explaining how terrorists got into WTC7, a building with numerous 3 letter agencies having offices in it, and rigged it to be demolished in such a symmetrical way? How is that easier to believe than people at the highest echelons of power, used some of said power to further their agenda, whatever it may be?

[edit on 18-8-2008 by Saidin]

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
My question really really becomes..... Skeptics, why must you disagree with something just to disagree?

Why do you think that skeptics are just being contrary because they don't agree with your theories? That's a condescending and arrogant assumption.

I already gave you a very good reason why I don't believe a single word of what frankly appears to be nothing but ranting from your side: it simply doesn't pass the common sense test. Since you didn't address my previous comments, I'll present them again: if there really was a conspiracy, why on earth would the powers that be engineer the heist in such an obviously (according to you) see through way? Why wouldn't they simply rig the buildings to blow and use terrorists to do so? Why involve planes at all?

There is a principle in science called Occam's Razor. It goes something like this: the simplest explanation is most often the correction one. So again, I ask you, if there was a conspiracy, which option is the simplest?

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Even the towers 4,5,6 (maybe it was just two of the towers.... it's been awhile since I even cared) where whole huge pieces of the towers fell right on top of....

Correct. Building 6 had debris from one of the towers fall from hundreds of feet on it and it arrested a global collapse of itself.

had to be demolished and were not completely collapsed , even with all that damage!!! If building 7 was so flimsy, why was it an emergency FEMA command center, home to FBI,CIA, offices of several large banks and lenders and yaday yada and enron and security risks?

Building 7 would be my choice of all these things. After all, a house of cards built on top of an electrical station would be my first choice. [/sarcasm]

Of course, it could have been a house of cards too. I'm still trying to find the answer myself.

Dont feel bad, the same Gatekeepers were just in my thread spewing their usual hate and spin just ignore them. They have no proof and never will have proof to suport their ridiculous conspiracies theories.

I think a see a glaring problem...building engineer. It should be an architect. I have known a few good engineers, however most engineers I have known would easily believe that the international symbol is three gears in a triangle with the motto "working for a better tomorrow". Which in a way is quite a good description in that it looks good on paper but has no chance in hell of working in reality. (Note--a three gear system like that would not turn. Gear on gear systems must be an even number.)


The problem with the whole debate is that the most minute bit of information gleaned is presented as the keystone to unraveling the "big fraud" when often the bit of data was inconclusive to begin with. Like had one of the guy's bodies been found with a Blue Pilot G2 Gel inkpen in his shirt pocket but a Black & White security footage showed a "Black" Pilot G2 gel inkpen it would be used as "Conclusive, Smoking Gun, Undeniable, Amazing, Uncanny....." Proof that the bodies had been carelessly "planted at the scene" 300,000,000 webpages would be dedicated to the Black & White photo of the guy in the white shirt and black pen and then the color photo with the blue pen in the white shirt (or even a bright green shirt as they both look the same color white in B & W). Super close up so no one but a few that cared enough to still voice an objective opinion would dare say that the blue pen might look black in a Black & White photo while a horde of the truther faithful (I decided long ago that the obsession has become like a religion for some) would howl and cry how the "Sheeple/Shills/Gov't plants still won't give up." (Which is partly the reason why that yellow text warning is at the bottom of the 9/11 forum--forum gang posting being another)

Unfortunately posts of this nature also have such long run-on paragraphs that most just stop reading them partway through due to text confusion...like my above deliberately structured paragraph.

Originally posted by thrashee
Question for you:

If there really is a cover up, if the plane crashes really are so unbelievable....

Are you ready for this...?

Why wouldn't they just have said the buildings were wired by terrorists to explode, and forgotten any nonsense with planes to begin with?

Think about it: which is more plausible to believe? The conspiracy masterminds want to set it up like it's terrorists:

A) Get them on planes, get them to learn how to fly planes, hijack said planes, risk being taken down by any brave people on the planes, coordinate the planes to hit the towers, WHILE still rigging the buildings to go down, and WHILE knowing that even "laymen" (as you say) could see through the fact that these puny planes couldn't possibly take the towers down alone.

B) Wire the buildings to blow, and blame it on terrorists.

You tell me.

Consider that the US is in lots of debt, constantly creating more and more perpetual debt that can never really be conventionally just paid back, and a few factors other than just one group may have been worked into a long term plan which A) either pays these people calling in their debts by doing them some favors and making them some money or power, or B) consider that the US may not be the big cheese it used to be, and for various economic reasons, September 11th was the beginning of a drawn out plan of collapsing The United States of America politically or most likely economically and consolidating it into a union with the North and South... nothing personal, but the corporations probably find it easier to deal with world economics in large regional sections, rather than a bunch of smaller nations with independant aspirations for power.

If this was the case... consider that the whole thing had to look as random and rogue as possible. We're dealing with a global war on rogue terrorist organizations here... not any one country. The Global War on terror means that all countries are a target for this War. They could've planted bombs, and I thought that same thing too a while back... but I honestly just think the two reasons were A) a second and more massive successful bombing and destruction of the WTC buildings just sounds too organized. I don't think people have been conditioned to buy a story like "terrorists have infiltrated our country, prepare for martial law" even in this day and age now.... I don't think the public of the time would've fully bought it .... and b) it needed to be epic as possible. Even the terrorists themselves needed to be seen as heroes of sorts... doing all of that and sacrificing all of that blood for their belief in Allah and Holy War on the West... wow what a great movie the Bruce Willis version will make in 10 years. In this case, something more Hollywood becomes more believeable because up until now, we'd never experienced a scenario as big as that before... and it had to stick in people's memories.

I mean.... that whole day, it was just almost too epic not to believe...

While we were all mezmerized by the epic storyline the news was spinning us, we were shown statements and guaranteed proof....dna, IDs, passports, whatever they said they found.... not a drop, not a shred of a document, other than Korans everywhere, some grainy footage taken at any one of a zillion terminals in airports everywhere... a bunch of drunk womanizers go out on the town the night before, and only from what we know...these men were paid 100,000 dollars. Probably a lot more than that... just mohammed atta alone was paid 100,000 at some point....cold've been paid more at different times, not to mention any one of the other hijackers. Wait, I thought this was a holy war based on beliefs and anger at America and whatnot, and yet we got these guys having a great time the night before, loads of cash waiting for them, don't seem to be too concerned with the Korans other than having copies to leave everywhere... and oh, if they die tomorrow, why need cash at all?
"I am doing this for my ailing family. I love them, so here's 100,000 dollars for my ailing family who all hate America and will gladly take them money, as it is covered in many thousands of innocent victim's blood.

A Holy War is [snip] not even a rational or doable thing nowadays, anyway...especially with the West. Most Christians are as half assed religious as they come. It's like... that was just an added bonus to make the fundamentalist Christians money off spouting propaganda about Demon Islam, although the religion isn't like super lenient... but yeah let's demonize the whole MiddlEast. Aren't they all Muslim? "Turn them into glass", right?


The reasons for some of this human behavior, both as masses of people and as individuals with independent hopes and dreams, don't make sense at all. Why are people so radicalized over there, and how much more savage and brutal do you think human nature differs from here to there? And how all the sudden are these fringe vigilante groups becoming friends with Bush's Best Fwiends the Bin Ladens, and how suddenly do they have Bush's old CIA asset and Corporate Partner buddy's total support, yet Bush has no idea.... and of course, if Bush knew, why didn't he stop doing business with the Bin Ladens? Why did he have a bunch of Bin Ladens flying around in planes, all potential terrorists!? Why did he halt all investigations into Bin Laden's family? Why were people fired before September 11th for pushing the terrorist threat so hard, when now clearly it was needed?

Why all these coincidences? Why all these happy coincidences floatig around in a random universe that shouldn't even be here, and if it's so random, then why to the bad guys ALWAYS win? Why can't just by accident, something really good happens, like a country has a successful peace revolution, or the Ozone holes go back to normal without explanation, or "In the News today, everything is just fine! No murders. No rapes. No bombings. Everybody was cool to each other today."
Nope. The board seems to be tilted in the devil's favor, my friends.

Fear is your main reason why you should not trust any of this propaganda. Fear is the only weapon "they" have against us all without seriously impacting their lives (i.e. guess they got the nukes, too! Woops! Classified artillery which we have no access to as rebelling Americans in times of unrest. Just shows you how far ahead these people were in their plans.




Mod Note: Profanity removed. Please see Terms and Conditions of Use section 1b) Profanity. Thank you - Jak

[edit on 20/8/08 by JAK]

"I'm not saying people are stupid at all... but I'm surprised, the part of me that remains the hardcore radical I was upon first hearing of all this stuff, the one that wanted to blow up the Statue of Liberty after seeing V for Vendetta.... I thought people would mostly be as angry as I was by now... "
Quoted above

May I ask what was so upsetting about your Statue of Liberty ???

thanks

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
A) a second and more massive successful bombing and destruction of the WTC buildings just sounds too organized. I don't think people have been conditioned to buy a story like "terrorists have infiltrated our country, prepare for martial law" even in this day and age now.... I don't think the public of the time would've fully bought it

So learning how to fly, hijacking separate planes, planning flight paths, and driving them into skyscrapers is somehow less organized than planting bombs?

b) it needed to be epic as possible. Even the terrorists themselves needed to be seen as heroes of sorts... doing all of that and sacrificing all of that blood for their belief in Allah and Holy War on the West... wow what a great movie the Bruce Willis version will make in 10 years. In this case, something more Hollywood becomes more believeable because up until now, we'd never experienced a scenario as big as that before... and it had to stick in people's memories.

So the collapse of the world trade towers wasn't memorable enough, without planes running into them? They couldn't have "discovered" that terrorists were still sacrificed in the bombings?

So again. Let's think about this. These epic masterminds coordinated this entire ruse, but just crossed their fingers that engineers and laymen alike wouldn't question all the things you're bringing up now?

This honestly makes sense to you?

Originally posted by thrashee

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
My question really really becomes..... Skeptics, why must you disagree with something just to disagree?

Why do you think that skeptics are just being contrary because they don't agree with your theories? That's a condescending and arrogant assumption.

I already gave you a very good reason why I don't believe a single word of what frankly appears to be nothing but ranting from your side: it simply doesn't pass the common sense test. Since you didn't address my previous comments, I'll present them again: if there really was a conspiracy, why on earth would the powers that be engineer the heist in such an obviously (according to you) see through way? Why wouldn't they simply rig the buildings to blow and use terrorists to do so? Why involve planes at all?

There is a principle in science called Occam's Razor. It goes something like this: the simplest explanation is most often the correction one. So again, I ask you, if there was a conspiracy, which option is the simplest?

Well, I started this.... can't back out now!

Ahh Thrashee, my friend. I think you like to disagree with one side of an argument possibly to feel like you've accomplished something in this world where very little matters anymore except the few useless words and posessions we cling to, avoiding our most uncertain and yet inevitable event until the last possible moment. We, and indeed you as well, just want some relief. Who wants to hear that the world is much more screwed up and we're all much farther up # creek than previously imagined? I mean, we've only got this one life, so they say. Why even acknowledge anything that would greatly challenge our preconceived life plan.... our view of the world as relatively known and predictable, with a bit of careful leg work?

I mean, seriously... if the one life to live scenario and unfairness ruling a universe that seems to utterly balanced in every other way scenario was at all believable (gasps for breath)... then I'd seriously have to back up the train and think to myself "Why keep talking about this? It's depressing, it frightens people, and people just wanna be left alone with whatever silly thing we've made to be important in our lives... and real AWARENESS cannot be just like a hobby between business projects, or a funny little thought we tinker with once in a while and we can safely walk out in the street to aknowledge to the world "Yes, I am aware today! I can tell when things are not right as they should be! Hello FedEx! Hello UPS! Hello DoT dawdling around my neighborhood doing nothing for months?
Hello surveillence camera on top of my quiet suburban neighborhood streetlamp? Hello dying trees for no reason? I'm going back inside!"
That was kind of....an inside joke partially, sorry... but anyway.... I simply think that people take awareness for granted big time. They want to be informed, yet with all the bleakness of the future...we'd rather hear good things and patriotic things and "oh these and those other people are bad, but we've got it all handled.... because we're Grrrreat! Next on Etertainment Newwwsss, Brangelinaaaaah!!!!"

So... there's just so many other things that I'm trying not to stray into right now... because 9/11 becomes irrelevent eventually, and you start diving deeper and deeper into what they term" the rabbit hole" here in conspiracy land...

But even with the information being had, can you not see the inconsistencies?

Would any of you, skeptics and debunkers alike, like to name a few things which you discovered as inconsistent in your completely common sensical and unbiased investigation of the 9/11 event?

Or have I never once heard a skeptic worth any of his weight in skeptic salt possibly yield to the attacks of the "truthers" and admit some things that were afoul about this. I'll give you the benefit of my doubt that you could skim over such glaring inconsistencies. Then, you can explain why the inconsistencies can be explained away as "someone wasn't taking pictures over there" or "the wreckage was buried quickly out of the ground and moved before barely anyone could examine it, but that was so they could examine it somewhere else" or whatever....

because yes I've heard of Occam's razor. The problem is that the simplest answer isn't always the most believeable to the persona, therefore the simplest answer isn't always being expressed. Let's sa you and I look at multiple photos of the pentagon crash, and on one hand my simplest explanation is "Uhhh you say a 757 flew into the building? Why is this just a hole with burnt garbage and select metal pieces strewn around in it?"
Simplest answer was a plane doesn't fit in that hole, there's not enough surface nor enough wreckage.
Your simplest answer would be adding a lot of other third and fourth-hand details to "Yes it may SEEM like that, BUT in reality, plane crashes are very complicated and so you can't prove this until you've drawn up scientific coordinates and diagrams for it all, and even then, here's some other data that's been drawn up saying nuh-uh."???

In order to bring this to the people, lay it out very openly in honestly in a well presented and unbiased mass media presentation and let them choose. The problem being that every mass media event on the subject ends up demonizing truthers as crazy, fanatical, disrespectful... and there are many mainstream truthers that fall for the same tactics, but... I guess people learn from each other, and once words start flying, watch out!
You have to be able to point to something obvious in front of a prime time audience and go "What does that look like to you?"
not show them a bunch of scientific mumbo jumbo (I sound old timey now) "experts say" then show them a graph and say the theory is impossible because we say so. Oh this never happened before, so how can ANYone be so sure when nobody has even taken the initiative to even recreate a test that simulates a decent sized scaled down version of the collapse. What do they do? They rely instead of very manipulateable data programmed only as competent and unbiased as the person programming the data. How can people be a judge when you give them nothing they can judge clearly with a meager average american education and a head full of patriotic propaganda their whole lives?

Originally posted by ROO-meh
"I'm not saying people are stupid at all... but I'm surprised, the part of me that remains the hardcore radical I was upon first hearing of all this stuff, the one that wanted to blow up the Statue of Liberty after seeing V for Vendetta.... I thought people would mostly be as angry as I was by now... "
Quoted above

May I ask what was so upsetting about your Statue of Liberty ???

thanks

At the time, it was like mocking me kind of. Statue of Liberty isn't even an original design. It's Queen Semiramis. They've got those everywhere in Europe. Why is it all of the sudden Lady Liberty? To me, it was just a Freemasonic occult " [snip] you, normal everyday joe schmo. We rule the World now. See, we even put our big statue here and fooled you into thinking "Oh yes, that's uhhh Lady Liberty.... she uhh hmmm guided Geoge Washington down the Delaware in the middle of winter?....wearing nothin but sandals....and she liked it that way!"

I'm not sure what the whole story behind Lady Liberty is, just a few occult references and some brief overviews of the history. Honestly, I figured I could figure out a way to do it so that nobody was hurt... but my friend never did bring me his "demo expert", just like he never sold me a gun I asked for or even hooked me up with one of his hot chick friends he'd been saying wanted to meet me. All talker... but then again, I was all talk then, too. Who am I to lead a revolution? A skinny little weirdo? Who would follow? How could I feel about killing? In the end... revolution will have to be won in a new way. You find this out after the anger subsides. Once you get it, you really get it. Feels like old reality detox.... you never get used to looking around and seeing nothing but illusions layering illusions.

People don't get it about getting it. It's not that you are ignorant, because you 9/11 skeptics definitely have heard the whole truther song and dance about a million times, and you can probably recite their points better than I can. It's that, in certain modes of belief, certain things are automatically filtered out without even a thought, other things are accepted without question... and you don't get it until it all crashes down upon you one night, and you quickly realize that you are alone when everybody either gets mad at you, makes you feel stupid and childish for even talking about it, or just changes the subject... I forgot about the loneliness back then (I didn't know about ATS back then and the truther movement was beginning to gain attention from certain bigger names... sometimes I'm glad about that, considering most of this stuff would've been way too much to deal with in a sane and cool manner back then, in the state of mind I was in at the time).

Ever hear of the story of the Native Shaman who greeted the Spanish Sailors on the shore? He saw a white and brightly dressed group of men walk right out of the ocean. He asked the sailors "Where'd you come from? Under the water?"
The sailors said "No. Don't you see those big boats with sails out there" We rowed in from those."

The Shaman could not see the evidence, even though it was right in front of him. That's a good story, because it illustrates several points about consciousness and a few other subjects.
Later on, the Shaman finally could see the ships, once he stared at the empty ocean long enough and finally accepted the possibility of the craft being described existing.

Maybe this is why people see evidence for ufos and some people don't, some see evidence for ghosts, some people don't, some see evidence for whatever kind of non-popular theory... yet there's always people who aren't ready to break that consciousness barrier yet and accept certain evidence as undeniable.

I seriously have not watched many skeptic videos. I've seen a few, and agreed with some of their points. I don't think this was some dark and magical sacrificial occult blood to Sumerian Gods or something, so I'm not accepting any theory I hear. I consider all angles until I find them either to feel embellished or made up, or until I focus on it long enough to decide any more focus on a detail like "What color a grey's pupils are under the black sheath?" As interesting as some of it all is, I'm not interested in the numbers and details... just the glaring inconsistencies.... and sometimes the really bizarre stories every once in a while... like the twin towers were collapsed by the reptilians in order to Rebuild the Tower of Babel and a stargate was going to operate inside...

Who knows? We can't pretend to know the motivations of a giant faceless entities bought out by a group of more giant faceless entities that basically own and corporatized all the Westernized World. China looks like New York now. McDonalds and KFC and everything. I have a suspicion that China and Russia had something, however far removed it seems, to do with Sept 11. Two huge superpowers, China's growing like nuts. 1.5 billion people, all wanting cars and new Americanized products. Do you know how much power can be gained by "Westernizing" Asia? Is the Middle East just their buffer zone separating West from East?

They are trying to get us into the East so bad right now, between Iraq Iran, Russia and Georgia, and Communist China.... We're just a skip hop and a jump away from a World War. Can we win three in a row? Or will we take the big fall and become a broken civil war torn third world nation? This seems to be what karma would decide for us. This seems to be the plan as I see it, starting with sept 11th.

Also... before you ask "how could something on that scale be covered up?"... take into consideration you you HAD found a major inconsistency in the story that couldn't be just explained away to you. What would you do? Would you ignore it all just because you can't fathom the protocol involved? Or would you be forced to consider it a possibility?





Mod Note: Profanity removed. Please see Terms and Conditions of Use section 1b) Profanity. Thank you - Jak

[edit on 20/8/08 by JAK]

Oh no....

Now people aren't reading things because it's not structured the way they were taught? Unfortunately.... [snip] your grammar teacher. I never liked the... woman.

Jesus, man! Kill the grammar school, brother! I'm not here to teach people how to properly express their chosen symboligy, man!

hey wat du eye car?

rite lyk dis, as long as I can read the letters and understand the content.... not what the content looks like compared to something I was told to write by the same people who told me I had to write and read and learn all this snip] in the first place so I get so anal about all this medicore crap that I can't even bother to listen to a good point when it is being made because I'm to busy fooling myself into enjoying being a massive anus.

Off topic... sorry. Meant to establish a point.... that I don't pander to critics of literature very much.




Mod Note: Profanity removed. Please see Terms and Conditions of Use section 1b) Profanity. Thank you - Jak

[edit on 20/8/08 by JAK]

Originally posted by thrashee

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
My question really really becomes..... Skeptics, why must you disagree with something just to disagree?

Why wouldn't they simply rig the buildings to blow and use terrorists to do so? Why involve planes at all?

I'' try answer this one, first off if the whole of buidings where rigged with explosive in such a demolition like way, a lot of questions would be asked at how in the world they got into the buildings to wire them, it takes days of work. (There is evidence of power downs and evacuations for "security reasons weeks and months prior to the event?)

Granted, they could have said something like a main bomb on the floor of the main pillars from certain vans cauzed it, (there was bomb scares years before in the WTC with something like that) but to make a good psychological impression they made it "spectacular" it wouldnt be sucha big issue if it wasnt so spectacular, they wanted this to make a big psychological impression to create fear, so we give up our liberties more easily, hightened security at airports is only the very beggining. Thats why they are called a Psy Ops.

Second of all you are sticking with a false dialectic that there was terrorists or someone on the planes that flew them into the towers, this may not nessacerally be true, and there is other ways this could have been pulled off through remote control, there is 100's of pilots the question the maneuvers possibility and these particular planes did have the ability to be controlled. They may not have even been the same planes, I believe the transponders where turned off.

Not only that, but there is other theorties that there where no planes, I can see how crazy that must seem to someone unaware of false flags and black ops that go on all of the time by the way, I even thought it was a stretch but never the less it should not be discounted and, if you havnt studied it due to its sounding crazy, I suggest you do. It is certainly not impossible to over lay graphics through intercepted signals. People saw planes? yeah sure, maybe they did, im saying its worth a look.

So I think that question is quite a simple one to answer, I have been studying this on and off since it happened thats a long time now and btw i do try to remain skeptical and I appreciate skepticism and debunking because they are only extra questions afer all and it keeps us honest in our search for truth.

Id rather believe it wasnt an inside job, but I consider the evidence seems to be heavily pointing in that direction.

[edit on 18-8-2008 by Boostah]

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Oh no....

Now people aren't reading things because it's not structured the way they were taught? Unfortunately.... your grammar teacher. I never liked the... woman.

Jesus, man! Kill the grammar school, brother! I'm not here to teach people how to properly express their chosen symboligy, man!

I guess this was thrown out to me...

I did not grammar-nazi you personally. Your writing style is very readable with information broken into clean paragraphs. While long posts, they are very readable. I refer to the majority of the "OMG THIZ ITS !!11!!!1one!! type of posts" that you yourself will admit exists.

My post is about how people as a whole are tired of details that are minute and unverifable that are repeated ad-nauseum as pentacles of truth. I once asked a simple question of a very deterimined poster to this forum and subject (without naming names, said memeber even once had a special section) the question was dismissed (and unanswered as well) as being "a simple-minded" and "I should do my own research to get to his level of interest before cluttering his thread with a newb question" --or words to that effect.

The reality of events that day are definately somewhere between the official story and the extreme of explanations. No one can doubt that. The key is the distance between these two endpoints in where the reality exists.

The Shanksville plane could be "Let's Roll", shot down, aborted by the muslim hijackers, mechanical failure, made up planted evidence. My personal guess would be passenger coup or shot down, but there are other possibilities and honestly we will not know exactly what happened there because the "Let's Roll" story sounds so much better than "shot down" that the government would not freely confess to that one for a long time, if ever.

Building 7 sounds so far-fetched for many people because the repeated call of "fell in their footprint" repeated over and over until it became a "fact". The reality is that there was debris all over the immediate area including across the street that flatten an old church. Of course that church could have fallen just from the rumble of the ground, but it was covered in debris. Of course "fell in their footprint" is better than fell into other buildings causing a domino effect like from a cartoon or Rube Goldberg scene all over Manhatten. Reality shows bits in buildings all around the area...that seems to be glossed over rather quickly by the "fell in their footprint" crowd.

As for the Pentagon and how did a big plane fit in a little hole crowd...a mostly hollow plane hitting super reenforced concrete and steel wall isn't going to leave a cartoon cutout. Or why the planes didn't simple bounce off the WTC towers like a paper airplane against a brick wall. I have seen both these statements used to justify why 9/11 was fake to different people. Saddly they are as applauded as loudly as anyone else that doubts the offical story. Which says more things about the "truth movement" than I could on my most mean-spirited day.

Also not helping the case is the shear number of anti-Bush and anti-gov't members that only speak the talking points so their agendas can be added to the mix. Add that with the sci-fi/fantasy explainations and the actual facts of calling the offical story into question becomes just as ignored by the majority as the other "truths".

The actual number of people that believe eveything the gov't tells them as gospel everytime is about 5% of the population by my best guess. Unfortunately the "truth movement" uses the same "you're either with us or against us" attitude that Bush expressed for the whole War on Terror. Two sides of the same coin really, if you want to look at it that way.

The other 80-90% of the world said "gee, that sucked" and got on with the rest of their lives. We wonder when the others will join in with us so our combined 10% can get on with fixing current problems like poverty, ecconomy and futture energy solutions.



[edit on 18-8-2008 by Ahabstar]

As far as 9/11 goes, the conspiracy has not been debunked, rather the conspiracy grows and grows. Brave/Patriotic University Professors have come forth to testify on what they know is nonsense. (I.E. the Thermate/Thermite theory and a host of others such as the free-fall arguement) Can we not all agree that buildings don't fall a free fall speed? Why can't we agree that building 7 was an anomoly that just will not be explained until the truth is lit up like a candle. Seven years I have studied this, from watching experts give testimony on CSPAN to digging harder and deeper than I ever thought I would on any particular subject.

I have been physically attacked because of my belief on this issue... that is a luxury that Would-Be debunkers hold firm to... Physical safety because they believe something safe. I have also (like many of you I'm sure) been verbally attacked, these attacks hurts worse because often people sitting near by will chip in with their uneducated two cents. It blows my mind how many people will get in your face and scream "Didn't you F-ing watching CNN!!!! Don't you F-ing watch FOX???? It was those darn terrorist RAG HEADS!!!! Well no it wasn't do a little unorthedox research. Do a little digging outside your comfort zone. People do come to this site with fist fulls of research and facts but there will always be people saying "No we won't believe it until it airs on MSM," NewsFlash! You will not see these stories on MSM unless its one Professor or Expert being ripped to shreds by an anchor saying "Where is your proof?" "Where are your witnesses?" If you skeptics and self-proclaimed debunkers need proof, look no further than the thermite/mate evidence... Solid physical evidence. Ask yourself why 3 high rise buildings collapsed on 9/11 while no other high rise has ever fall due to being struck by an airliner or fire.

The simplest explaination is most often the correct one... ok, lets roll with it...
What is more simplistic? Terrorists with little experience flying planes executed magnificent acrobatics in the air with large airliners, executed their job so well, that even a building they didn't hit fell to the ground at free-fall and started a losing war for themselves. (Laughing so hard to myself right now) Or rather high ranking officials executed a false flag operation using many technologies they have at their disposal. With the intention of war-mongering (Please don't debate the fact that high ranking gov't officals are war-mongers, that word itself wouldn't be in existence if powerful people didn't monger war.

Its not about patriotism, its not about right and wrong, its about Truth, and having the sense to know which is which. Thanks for reading my post, Peace and Love