Explaining the occult - the interconscious and astral.

Hello,

Lately I've been giving thought on the matter that considers the unconsciousness. The more I've thought about it, the more I've become into the conclusion that the unconsciousness is the explaining factor behind the supernatural experiences, like Astral projection, some religious experiences and other "occult". Following paraghraps are not my own inventions or theories (but they are merely expressed by me), but what I am willing to share here from what I've learned from the dead. By consulting the dead I mean the learning from the people that had lived before us; the dead people. In other words, I've read about the matter quite widely, and within me a thought is forming; the thought is not mine, but it is an hybrid of past and contemporary processes.

(i) Introduction

I know that there is little objective ground for the following matter, which regards the interconsciousness; or the relation between science (more accurately, psychology), alchemy and religious experiences. These interconsciousness experiences are highly subjective, but keeping in mind their frequency of appearence, they really are objective phenomenon for human beings at least; too many people are experiencing strange emotions and feelings - some even hallucinations and visions. However, public largely dismiss these scientifically proven phenomenon.

It is common that many people who have had religious type experiences - like visions of angels, guardians or have had been spoken to through mind and given orders of doing this or avoid doing that - cannot explain them except with supernatural. However, one has to realize that there is no such as "supernatural", there is merely law of the universe and it's implications which we cannot explain scientifically or otherwise logically, and therefore we call them supernatural.

This thread mainly focus on concept of Astral Plane and astral travelling and imagination. In short, I claim that Astral Plane - which so many mystics and alchemists have descriped - is being nothing more than capability of our soul (or mind, by witch I mean the whole human-system, including everything from brains to toes) and perfectly natural phenomenon. I believe that this capability of soul is achievable for almost anyone (expect maybe for those, who cannot understand the terminology or this matter at all).

(ii) Conscious Dreamstate

I suspect that everyone has at least once had a dream that have been quite vivid; where the images are clear, one can hear sounds and feel emotions and so on. So it is quite unarguable that our mind is capable of producing images without eyes seeing anything but perhaps the inside of our eyelashes. These unseen images then are products of our brains (the exact physical organ), somewhere there exists a center where from the dreams emerge. However, this dreamcenter - as I like to call it - can be activated in state of consciousness. This is bit tricky, but as we know there are many people capable of entering this state, usually they do it by meditation -- another good method is hypnosis, yet it can be dangerous because in hypnosis you give the control to someone else.

The methods of entering Astral always requires this meditative state, aquired by meditation or by other means (perhaps drugs or hypnosis). What I suspect (I have no hard evidence on this because I am not a brain surgeon/researcher) is that on this meditative state, one activates the dreamcenter, yet holding onto consciousness by not falling asleep. Once this state has been achieved, one can hear sounds, feel and see things that one normally cannot. Advanced practioner of these techniques (let's call them adepts) can even form specified images and have wanted results from their dreamcenter. These images are then cast into the mind and they enter the consciousness route different than the eyes.

What some inexperienced mystics fail to see, is that Astral plane is no way reality. They tend to think that Astral plane is kind of objective reality to the certain, advanced people like themselves, but in here the fall in the pit of selfhisness, and their advance in knowledge is more likely blocked. However, Astral Projection can become reality. According to Alice A. Bailey (the author of the Treatise on white magick), all the forms are first created in Astral Plane. I back up this claim by saying that every of our intentions and inventions takes place in our thoughts first -- in a sense, the plane of our thoughts can be called the Astar Plane. This is important knowledge to those who really wants to know. So nothing in Astral is real before it is transfered into energy and matter. In a sense it can be said that the Astral form is the seed that is cast into the material world. Then it either developes or dies, depending on the quality of the seed.

[edit on 16-8-2008 by v01i0]

(iii) Dreamstate and Unconsciousness

Normally we conversate with our unconsciousness in dreams. C.G Jung valued the meaning of dreams above all in his analytical psychotherapy. Mentally (as well as often even physically) sick people tend to have this certain instability between their conscious and unconsciouss. They strongly support either one, but are not balanced between them. Some people have horrible dreams and it usually means that they are not balanced, and if they do not achieve this balance, the dreams will get more horrible and their mental and physical condition worse. If we live in a constant conflict with ourselves and our environment, our unconsciousness will try to warn about this through dreams, or if person is mental enough, by visions, which both usually are someway shocking and grose.

So the dreamstate is really the process between our conscious and unconsciouss. It tries to arrange the events of the day into proper context and depending of our stability, it more or less succeeds in it. It is said that successful meditation reduces the need of sleep, it is because this conversation between un- and consciousness has already taken place. We don't need so much sleep if we are constantly contacted with our inner self.

(iv) The Supernatural

I'd like to emphasis again, that all the visions about angels and demons are products of our unconsciousness. They are the archetypes of collective consciousness -- for thousands of years they have been indoctrinated in us by our culture and our way of living. Thoughs and ideas can take form of some creature in the dreamstate as well as on this meditative state; seeing a demon (or some other unpleasant being), or being commanded by it could be meaning that we're in peril to be succumbed by a malcious ideology or idea (our innerself feels bad about it, hence it casts resentful images in your mind), and an angel could represent a pure idea or ideology in our mind, because our innerself likes the idea and hence casts forth a pleasant image, giving courage and will to continue on chosen path.

(v) On the end...

Well, I feel that I've already typed too much and am certain that there are not many who will endure through these thoughts, and I guess there are even less people that will agree with them. I welcome all the critic -- As I said in the beginning, I hold no pride to this work as it is not mine.

If this will spawn conversation, I'll be glad to join. Be well!

starred and flagged my friend.

your words speak my mind, and this is the mind of uncertainty amidst truth. we have pieces of this puzzle [shall we call it life?] that fit and make perfect sense, and others where you wonder if the grooves really do match?

you are spot on to believe the mind is where the answers are. as intangible and mysterious as the mind is...it's the only thing we can individually validate as existing and not just as a construct of said device. logic determines this as so.

in terms of the astral plane...i've read and heard the theories, and i must admit curiosity-soaked intrigue into the matter. i have never experienced such an event to determine it's authenticity. book knowledge is not enough on this one, and like many other things in life, personal experience will ultimately determine one's thoughts on the matter. i've read stories about people meeting friends or family in the astral to go cavorting around the universe, but i've never actually read anything to validate the experience of said individuals after the fact.

group mentality or consciousness exists though. if one has ever worked retail, you have experiences with flocks of people all checking out at the same time or entering the building all at once. to what extent does group consciousness apply to? is it so universal to be a higher dimension that is achieved in astral travel...the surfing of global minds? i think it is possible, and i am trying to find out for myself firsthand.

Well, you certainly bring up some good points. The occult and supernatural are two very misunderstood topics. I have noticed that many of the posters on this site don't tend to want to touch upon the subject of the occult. I don't know if its due to a lack of knowledge about it, or if they buy into the demonization of the occult which has been perpetrated by the media and religion.

In any case, I think that the subject of the supernatural is very important. Supernatual events usually denote an occurrence that is not normal. It's only "super" because it's outside the range of every day occurrence.

reply to post by banyan


Nice to see that these thoughts expressed here are resonating in few people at least I see if I can comment on any of your thoughts, and hopefully give ideas for new thoughts.

Originally posted by banyan

your words speak my mind, and this is the mind of uncertainty amidst truth. we have pieces of this puzzle [shall we call it life?] that fit and make perfect sense, and others where you wonder if the grooves really do match?

you are spot on to believe the mind is where the answers are. as intangible and mysterious as the mind is...it's the only thing we can individually validate as existing and not just as a construct of said device. logic determines this as so.

Aye, life. As you suggested, I do have strong feeling about that the truth about universe can be found within. First, I do believe (well I guess I'm already past believing in this matter, more like I do know) that in a sense we are indeed images of god - but so are the everything else in this multiversum and human kind in that sense is no special in anyway.

I may speak using word 'god', but it's far from traditional concept of it. To me, god is the universal will, or law, that makes the things go around The unimaginable is in no way a personality, nor it is omnipotent in sense that it could act against it's own laws (=the laws of "nature). I like the concept of macrocosmos in every microcosmos; as above, so below. I do think that all answers can be found within our minds, but in a sense we have to be pure in order to understand the capability of our mind, to the furthest extent.

Originally posted by banyan

in terms of the astral plane...i've read and heard the theories, and i must admit curiosity-soaked intrigue into the matter. i have never experienced such an event to determine it's authenticity. book knowledge is not enough on this one, and like many other things in life, personal experience will ultimately determine one's thoughts on the matter.

Indeed, I also read and heard a lot about astral plane, and it took me a good while getting to understand it, or at least I think I understand it. I have never experienced it either, tho I've sure tried. I've tried most of the tricks that both, the dead and the living, have suggested, to no avail. Then I started to think that I either lack of something, or that there is a terrible misunderstanding about what the astral plane is. But I didn't gave up, I kept both reading books and practicing various techniques. Finally when I read Alice Bailey's Treatise on White Magick, which basically enlightened me on the matter together in conjuction with Jung's works. I came into to the conclusion (easily achievable once I had acquired enough information) that the Astral Plane is an imaginary condition, a place filled images of our unconsciousness. Those capable of enter the astar, are consciously connected to the uncoscious - and it is dreamlike state where images really emerge from ones "dreamcenter", whatever that is In my opinion, they are accessing dream images while awake (i.e conscious). Yet all said above might be totally incorrect, and I've got it all wrong. But nevertheless this is my opinion and it is not based on guesswork, but quite a lot of "research". But I must emphasize again, this is not result of my intellectual capacity, but more like just going through what have been said before, and putting it all together, hopefully in fresh way.

Originally posted by banyan

group mentality or consciousness exists though. if one has ever worked retail, you have experiences with flocks of people all checking out at the same time or entering the building all at once. to what extent does group consciousness apply to? is it so universal to be a higher dimension that is achieved in astral travel...the surfing of global minds? i think it is possible, and i am trying to find out for myself firsthand.

In a crowd behaviour you can see good example to what extent this consciousness apply. It is very powerful factor in human societies, just think about all those loony religious cults and political lunatics that seem to be capable of getting their followers to do almost anything. This results from very skillful operating with the collective consciousness.

In collective consciousness, there are images and things that awaits to be interpret. Once they are (by someone or something), they are like erupting volcanoes that may surprise anyone! For example, as Jung explained it, Hitler used this feeling of inferiority, that was so typical for German people (as a nation) at those times. See how he barks at them, tells them how rotten and incapable they are, and then he paints a glorious picture of nation of Germany, and what it could become if they would follow him. Well, we all know the results

Banyan, I wish you all the best in your experiments in trying to get more deeply in this group/collective consciousness!

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, you certainly bring up some good points. The occult and supernatural are two very misunderstood topics. I have noticed that many of the posters on this site don't tend to want to touch upon the subject of the occult. I don't know if its due to a lack of knowledge about it, or if they buy into the demonization of the occult which has been perpetrated by the media and religion.

Yepz, and furthermore on the top that you said above, many people that do have "occult" experiences, does not understand them, or may even be afraid of them. I hate how this capacity of our minds / souls indeed are put down by our contemporary religions and other institutions.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
In any case, I think that the subject of the supernatural is very important. Supernatual events usually denote an occurrence that is not normal. It's only "super" because it's outside the range of every day occurrence.

And out of most people's field of experience and knowledge. I like to think that there is only natural. But many people are so unnatural, that they regard this insanity. We call our civilisations sophisticated, but yet we cannot understand the basicality of our minds. I can give dozens of examples, where people that are considered to be on lower stage of development (=native tribes, small communities and so on) have way better understanding of these matters.

All the best,

This just popped into my view while surfing recent threads on ATS:

Another weird coincidence Neo's Passport expired on 9-11-2001 the matrix

Assuming that the expiring date of Neo's passport is true (I can't recall and I cannot check it right now) and not faked for some twisted purpose, this could either be interesting example of collective consciousness, or it is hinting towards WTC being inside job and someone wanted to tell that pre-hand. But I don't want to speculate about the latter option here on this thread so I explain my first option:

That date ended on Neo's passport through collective consciousness:
Someone was already planning those attacks against WTC when this movie was being made. Then the writer or whoever put that date on that passport, somehow got that date into his head, quite likely not even knowing it. He might've just thought: "What date should put in this passport?", and then he might've answer in his mind: "9/11/2001". And it happened because this "novelty" event was being planned at the moment (I don't want to say by whom).

For sure the people that were planning the attacks against WTC, thought about that date. And it became that their thoughts escaped into the collective consciousness Oops. And then some moviemaker puts this date on this fantasy passport! Convinient eh? I'll go sleep and think about this...? Maybe I'll receive some more ideas or get my head straight and bunk all this

[edit on 17-8-2008 by v01i0]

Hello v01i0,

Very interesting thread.

I found that all this supernatural stuff revealed itself more and more to me once i understood just how natural it all is.

We have done things from birth that the mystics and sages talk abut in their mysteries, we are just illiterate to them. I have been on this astral plane a few times in my dreams and while awake I can sometimes slightly reach that dream state. I have suggested ideas to people with nothing but my own thoughts and they have done the same to me. We all do these things every day, we just don't know it.

Here is a snippet from one of the many books by Robin Hobb. It is from the Assassins trilogy.

Have the student lie on his back. He should not be on a comfortable bed or on bare surface. Either is a distraction. A blanket folded on the floor suffices. Have the student remove or loosen any clothing that binds. Some students will preform the exercise best if naked and undistracted by clothing touching them. Others will be too distracted by the vulnerability of their nakedness. Let each student decide what is best for him, without comment.
Emphasize that the only movement of the body should be steady breathing. The eyes should be closed. Then, without any part of his body, ask the student to be aware of his body,He may need to be guided in this at first. Tell him to seek awareness of his middle toes without touching or moving them. Then have him think of his knees, but not flexing them. Proceed with the skin of his breasts, of his forehead, the backs of his hands, and continue as long as necessary to name the boundaries of his flash, until the student has been invited to truly consider the physical confines of the body he lives within. Thus prepared, ask him then to find the edges of his thoughts. Do they stop at the flash of his brow? Can he feel them encased in his skull or trapped in his chest?
All but the dullest students will swiftly realize that the body does not confine thoughts. They extend outside our flesh, even as our vision, hearing, touch, smelling, and even taste are senses that link us to the outside world while remaining functions of the physical body. So our thoughts reach out, unbound by distance or even time. Ask the student, "Cannot you smell the wine that is opened across the room? Hear the shout of sailors at work across the water? Then do not refuse to believe you can hear the thoughts of the man in the field that waft toward you."

---------Treekee's Translation Of "Preparing The Students"------------

Ta!!

Izzy.

reply to post by Izarith

Originally posted by Izarith
Hello v01i0,

Very interesting thread.

Hello Izarith,

I'm glad you found it interesting. I've been giving more thought to this issue recently. If you want, you can check out the other thread I made today on this specific issue.

Originally posted by Izarith
I found that all this supernatural stuff revealed itself more and more to me once i understood just how natural it all is.

I agree. In my opinion, there is no supernatural at all. How can something exceed natural? Is it because we don't know the nature, hence thinking that something can be separate of it?

Nevertheless, I found your quote from Hobb interesting. I think I've read it long time ago, and your post made me want to review it.

-v

thank you so much for this thread and bringing- Alice Bailey's Treatise on White Magick, to my attention!!

i am shocked and saddened this thread hasn't recieved more attention.

i guess what a lot of it boils down to is, people fear what they don't understand!

thanks again.

namaste.

reply to post by v01i0


When in the so-called "astral plane" my mind takes over from everything that I see. As soon as my internal attitude changes, my external perception changes. For example, in a dream I was looking at myself in a mirror, and when I felt nervous about the way I looked, my hair looked uneven, messy. When I stopped bothering, my hair turned into something that you would see from the movies, and basically, whenever I changed my mood, the image of my hair changed in the mirror. Also, when in the dream world, as I look at the people around me, as soon as I look at a person, depending on my own mood, they appear differently. Its as if the real world and the world of hallucinations were seamlessly integrated. Where we all live in our own "dellusions" to some extent, however, our actions all seem to line up synchronistically because no longer do we have as much control over the actions of others. That is, paradoxically, with less control over our objective reality, we gain more control over our subjective reality.