Illuminati Flow Chart

Originally posted by aware
I couldnt help but notice that the illuminated one (masonic light) had nothing to say about my small post.
Could it be that i spit fire and truth?

I had nothing to say about it because it was sort of a collection of incoherent ramblings.

For those interested, the following is a website I recently found on conspiracy "theories." This website is written from a Christian perspective, but I think all honest persons will see the truth in their message, regardless of your religious beliefs.

www.acts17-11.com...

Virtus junxit mors non separabit.

[Edited on 30-3-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
For those interested, the following is a website I recently found on conspiracy "theories." This website is written from a Christian perspective, but I think all honest persons will see the truth in their message, regardless of your religious beliefs.

www.acts17-11.com...

Well, you haven't convinced me. Sites (or htreads) that explain everything through the bible always leave me baffled.
As I said, the conpiracies are too many and too believable. Many of them are true.
The Illuminati is real. NWO is real. We could probably play dueling website all day and you could not convince me of your non-conspiracy beliefs.
Are you gonna tell me NONE of the theories presented here are true? This is all comic relief for you????

Our side is comprised of free-thinkers.

This statement is certainly fiction. Free-thinkers are, by their very definition, the Illuminati themselves. That's what Illuminati means: enlightened and free-thought.
The very first free-thinkers were the fathers of Freemasonry, as well as the Enlightenment.
Opposition to Masonry came from the Church. Pope Leo XIII, in his anti-Masonic Bull Humanum Genus, issued excommunication upon all Roman Catholics who became Masons because, in Leo's words, "Masonic Lodges are societies of free thinkers, which philosophy is irreconcilable with the Church."
You may think you're a free thinker, but if you buy the Illuminati conspiracy stuff, in reality you've been duped by a 200 year old Jesuit hoax which had as its purpose the elimination of free thought.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Well, you haven't convinced me. Sites (or htreads) that explain everything through the bible always leave me baffled.

With all due respect, I'm not concerned with trying to convince you of anything. You can believe whatever you want, I won't lose any sleep over it. I came to this forum because I have studied fraternities, secret societies, and the like for many years, and thought this would be a good place to discuss the topic. I'm a researcher, not a missionary.
As for the website I gave above, I said that it was written from a Christian perspective. However, they do not use the Bible there as proof for their arguments, they simply point out the folly in so-called "conspiracy theory" using logic and reason.

Are you gonna tell me NONE of the theories presented here are true? This is all comic relief for you????

As mentioned, I thought this was a serious forum for researchers. Some of it is, but yes, some also fall into the "comic relief" category.
Of course some conspiracy exists. It would be ridiculous to dispute that. But I do dispute the conspiratorial worldview as naive and inconsistent, as well as the myth that Masonry, Illuminati, and other esoteric fraternal organizations are behind the world's problems. In reality, these "secret societies" have been screaming at the tops of their lungs for centuries trying to get people to wake up and shake off the chains of ignorance and superstition. If people still refuse to do this, don't blame us.

Fiat Lvx.

[Edited on 30-3-2004 by Masonic Light]

Masonic Light, you admit that there is some truth to these conspiracy theories. But you seem to through out the entire thing because all the facts don't line up in your opinion. As a student to secret societies would you be able to tie the links together for us?

Originally posted by oconnection
Masonic Light, you admit that there is some truth to these conspiracy theories. But you seem to through out the entire thing because all the facts don't line up in your opinion. As a student to secret societies would you be able to tie the links together for us?

I don't believe there is much truth in the conspiracy theories I've read here. The whole thing about these "theories" is that they start with a grain (and only a grain) of truth, but then are blown up into all-out paranoia.
A "conspiracy" is an agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal act. Now, this type of thing happens every day. But this entirely different than believing the whole world is being controlled by some sort of vast, all-reaching conspiracy. The latter belief is a complete violation of logic, and has absolutely no evidence to substantiate. For a thing to be a �theory�, it must be able to explain a causal connection between a group of observable facts. Since �conspiracy theories� cannot do this, they aren�t really theories at all.
For example, there really was an Illuminati conspiracy...200 years ago. The Illuminati were freedom fighters in Bavaria, and wanted the same rights we ourselves take for granted. They were a secret society because, if they were public, they would quickly be arrested and sent to the gallows. They fought for truth and justice, but were pounced upon by a tyrannical government...the same tyrannical government who invented these Illuminati �conspiracies� in order to scare the populace, and make them submit. It is dangerous to be a crusader for truth: just ask Socrates, Jesus, Galileo, Gahndi, and Martin Luther King. In fact, there is a Masonic ceremony to commemorate the martyrdom of Christ, which opens with the line: �Those whom God hath sent to regenerate humanity have been put to death by men blinded by ignorance, and misled by the crafty.�
Another example: I keep hearing people talking about a �new world order.� Our forefathers invented this term, and used it to describe democracy. They believed democracy was going to be the wave of the future, �the new world order�, the �novus ordo seclorum�.
Whether or not our forefathers were correct in this prophecy remains to be seen. But it baffles me why some people pitch such a hissy fit over the term �new world order�. The only thing I can conclude is that they really don�t even know what the term meant.
They seem to suggest that it alludes to some type of worldwide dictatorship. But the fact remains that such a thing is complete fantasy: our respective nations are continually whining about each other, not uniting. Even in the few cases where they are uniting to some degree, like the European Union, this is merely the product of common sense. Those nations are very small, with citizens often doing business across the borders. A standard currency for them is no more sinister than an Alabaman�s money being good in California.
Another thing these conspiracy folks constantly harp on is our political leaders. I fully realize that most of our political leaders are incompetent and, to be frank, are idiots. It doesn�t take a conspiracy theorist (or a rocket scientist) to tell us that.
But these leaders got into positions of power not through conspiracies, but through the electoral process. How many of these �conspiracy theorists� vote? Do they exercise their right at the ballot, or do they just sit around and cry about being oppressed? In the 2000 elections, only a quarter of eligible voters actually cast a ballot. Everyone else was too busy watching �American Idol� and listening to Howard Stern.
Blaming the Illuminati, or the Masons, or the blacks, or the Jews or (insert scapegoat here) is just a cop-out for not taking personal responsibility. It�s actually nothing more than intellectual laziness.
The fact is that there is no secret society or fraternity out to get us. But there are unscrupulous individuals who use the public trust for their own selfish gain, and have made it into positions of high power. This is no conspiracy: it�s front page news.
We know who gives the orders, and we know their agendas. It�s time for Americans to turn off the computer, get off the couch, go to the ballot box, and make a difference.


Fiat Lvx.

Quote from Moronic Lite
"The fact is that there is no secret society or fraternity out to get us."
Ok, lets see.
"But there are unscrupulous individuals who use the public trust for their own selfish gain, and have made it into positions of high power. This is no conspiracy: it�s front page news."
Thats an absurd assumption ML, and it goes against every example of society that we have.
The 'unscrupulous individuals' you speak about verify the conspiracy that you deny.
1 They could not have gotten where they are without help (anybody ever help u get a job?)
2 They could not continue to operate without assistance from other 'unscrupulous individuals' around them.

What now ML?

ML thank you for your post. I respect your view point on this matter but I guess we have differing views. I agree that most politicians are idiots. But I do not agree with you on the point you made that there are just a few bad apples & there no way tied together. I mean look at Enron for example. About this up coming election to go to the ballot box is difficult me. I am really baffled on who to pick. A bondsman or another bones man. I know you will argue that SB is some little frat & is little significance. But there seems to be a trend of SB membership. They all gain very influential positions abroad. When members are questioned about there membership they won't discuss it. That in fact they say that it's so secret they can't even discuss it vaguely. They quickly want to change the topic. I wouldn�t have paid much attention to this. But is the fact they WONT talk about it is what disturbs me. So I do believe there are ties to power & secret societies.

Yes the concept of the NWO has been around for sometime. But it has been only recently that it has been more in public light. The problem I have with the NWO or globalizm in general. Is that you can not swear allegiance to the constitution of the United States then take a position of globalizm. I think that undermines national sovernty.


[Edited on 31-3-2004 by oconnection]

I agree with ML. There is no conspiracy. It would be far too difficult to orchestrate.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Another example: I keep hearing people talking about a �new world order.� Our forefathers invented this term, and used it to describe democracy. They believed democracy was going to be the wave of the future, �the new world order�, the �novus ordo seclorum�.
Whether or not our forefathers were correct in this prophecy remains to be seen. But it baffles me why some people pitch such a hissy fit over the term �new world order�. The only thing I can conclude is that they really don�t even know what the term meant.
They seem to suggest that it alludes to some type of worldwide dictatorship. But the fact remains that such a thing is complete fantasy: our respective nations are continually whining about each other, not uniting. Even in the few cases where they are uniting to some degree, like the European Union, this is merely the product of common sense. Those nations are very small, with citizens often doing business across the borders. A standard currency for them is no more sinister than an Alabaman�s money being good in California.
Fiat Lvx.

I agree with oconnection. I appreciate your input. I have a question about NWO and I would like to hear your thoughts on this next quote:
This a transcript of George Bush, Sr. speech on Sept. 11, 1990.

We stand today at a unique and extraordinary moment. The crisis in the Persian Gulf, as grave as it is, also offers a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective -- a new world order -- can emerge: a new era -- freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which the nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in harmony. A hundred generations have searched for this elusive path to peace, while a thousand wars raged across the span of human endeavor. Today that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we've known. A world where the rule of law supplants the rule of the jungle. A world in which nations recognize the shared responsibility for freedom and justice. A world where the strong respect the rights of the weak. This is the vision that I shared with President Gorbachev in Helsinki. He and other leaders from Europe, the Gulf, and around the world understand that how we manage this crisis today could shape the future for generations to come.

www.sweetliberty.org...

How does this quote fit in with your discussion that NWO was only a term used by the foudning fathers to describe our democaracy? (which BTW, we do NOT live in a democracy?)
The above quote, with thanks to mrmulder:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

How does this quote fit in with your discussion that NWO was only a term used by the foudning fathers to describe our democaracy?

I think Bush Sr. was using it in pretty much the same manner. This was a reference to the end of the Cold War, and the beginning of a new era of cooperation between the U.S. and U.S.S.R.
Those of us here who are old enough to remember the Cold War could perhaps better appreciate Bush's remarks. I'm no fan of George Bush (either daddy or junior), but he seemed to be correct in this instance.
During the Cold War, the only thing we were really concerned with was retaliating against the Soviets in the event of a nuclear strike. The Soviets had the same concern about us.
The doctrine of glasnost ended Cold War tensions to a large degree, and provided an opportunity for perpetual peace, along with a chance for democracy to thrive in the Soviet Union, which was, until Gorbachev, still basically a Stalinist dictatorship.
As an aside, I do not credit Reagan wth the fall of Stalinist communism. The Stalinist system was doomed from its beginning, as the Marxist theoretician Leon Trotsky aptly pointed out in his anti-Stalinist book "The Revolution Betrayed." It would have happened regardless of whom was president of the U.S.

Concerning O's statement on the Skull and Bones:

I've seen several Bonesmen speak openly about the fraternity. A&E ran a show about secret societies a while back where some were interviewed.
What organizations a candidate for public office belongs to does not concern me personally, providing that these organizations do not conflict with my beliefs concerning what is best for the state. For example, I would never vote for someone like David Duke, who is a member of the KKK. But college and civic frats don't pose a problem for me, I belong to several of them myself.
All fraternities and sororities, college or otherwise, require their initiates to pledge secrecy concerning the mysteries of the organizations. This is not because they have something to hide from the public...actually, if all the secrets of all these organizations were published to the public tomorrow, they would all be pretty mundane, as they concern only members themselves.
But these "secrets" do unite the members by a bond of trust and honor. This is an extremely ancient method of teaching, found in all societies, from the aborigines to the Greeks to the Native Americans: one first proves himself worthy of being admitted to such organizations, and then he is eligible to receive the esoteric knowledge of the tribe, or priestly caste, or whatever the situation may be. Not all men are worthy to become "medicine men" or "warriors". The "vision quest" sets the young brave apart from the profane of the tribe, who may have lacked the courage or moral qualities to complete his initiation.
Fiat Lvx.

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Masonic Light]

The system that we live in by definition is a Republic. Which is interesting because we as a nation supposedly are trying to spread democracy.

ML, thank you for the post but you have not really addressed my post. The main point of my post was to point out that members of SB have a great tendency to gain very influential positions throughout this nation. You brush it off as a little boy�s frat. But it is logical to ask what do they have to do in turn for that success? Here is a famous quote I want you to take a look at:


"The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers, which are cited to justify it."

President John F. Kennedy

I believe if we do live in a free & open society there is no need for secret societies. Esp. when two lead candidates for this up coming elections are members of such a society.


[Edited on 31-3-2004 by oconnection]

Originally posted by oconnection
The system that we live in by definition is a Republic. Which is interesting because we as a nation supposedly are trying to spread democracy.

Technically, the United States is a �democratic republic.� For example, the U.S.S.R. was also a republic, but lacked the fundamental basis of democracy.
The reason that the U.S. adopted republican tendencies is that an Absolute Democracy can easily be as tyrannical as an Absolute Monarchy. Benjamin Franklin, on being asked to explain the difference between �democracy� and �liberty�, said that democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch, while liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Absolute democracy could (and probably would) quickly give way to mob mentality, as we have seen happen in the Reign of Terror following the French Revolution.
To illustrate, suppose we live in an Absolute Democracy. The people decide to vote to pass legislation to require you and I to wear red ties every Wednesday.
Here, the people have spoken, and have voiced their will. The problem here is that the will of the people have encroached upon our individual liberties....in reality, it�s no one else�s business what color ties we choose to wear on Wednesday, and the people have no right to persecute us for wearing green ties, even if they are unified against us.
A Democratic Republic balances the will of the people with individual liberty, and, while certainly not perfect, nevertheless seems to be the most preferable system of government yet devised.

ML, thank you for the post but you have not really addressed my post. The main point of my post was to point out that members of SB have a great tendency to gain very influential positions throughout this nation. You brush it off as a little boy�s frat. But it is logical to ask what do they have to do in turn for that success?

You are correct that several Bonesmen have attained positions of great political power. But it is also true that for every one Bonesman in the Senate, there are a hundred or so who are �nobodys�.
I think if we look at the big picture, we will find the factors that led the powerful Bonesmen to their offices have little, if anything, to do with their fraternity.
Firstly, Skull and Bones exists only at Yale. Yale is an elite school, catering to the wealthy and privileged. People who graduate from Yale, or another Ivy League university, automatically have a better chance of securing public leadership than the rest of us. They are obviously from wealthy families, and have the money to run successful campaigns. They also usually have more connections, which helps them in getting their message across to the public.
If you look at each of the three branches of the federal government, you will find a large number of them to be Ivy League graduates. In formal statistics, the law of probabilities would dictate that a certain percentage of these would be members of the various Ivy League fraternities and sororities, including S&B.
Since Skull and Bones is not represented in government by a larger number than other Ivy League frats among such graduates, the number of officials who are alumni of the S&B Society is not unusual.
Now, I certainly have an issue with only the wealthy elite being capable of running a successful campaign, barring normal citizens from the realistic chance of being elected. But the problem here seems to revolve around the issue of campaign finance reform, instead of Skull of Bones.

Here is a famous quote I want you to take a look at:

"The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers, which are cited to justify it."

President John F. Kennedy

I�ve seen this Kennedy quote used in this manner before, but here it must be viewed in context. Kennedy is not here alluding to fraternities, who require members to take oaths. Rather, he was addressing the issue of his Roman Catholicism.
Richard Nixon, his Republican opponent, charged that Kennedy was loyal to the Vatican, and considered his allegiance to his Church as more important than that to his country. Nixon then mentioned the Society of Jesus (the �Jesuits�), a Catholic order of priests who are oath-bound, and have been responsible for much mischief.
Kennedy�s response concerned the Society of Jesus, whom Kennedy himself apparently considered nefarious, judging from his quote. He was not referring to the S&B or other fraternal orders...he himself was a Knight of Columbus, and chose as his running mate a Mason, Lyndon B. Johnson.

I believe if we do live in a free & open society there is no need for secret societies. Esp. when two lead candidates for this up coming elections are members of such a society.

I certainly understand your position on this account, but I think the whole thing really boils down to semantics. In other words, we must ask �what exactly is a secret society�?
Skull and Bones, like all fraternities, require its initiates to pledge secrecy concerning the Order�s esoterica. This is no different than the standard Greek Letter Societies, who require the same. The same is also true for post-collegiate fraternities, including Masonry, Elkdom, Oddfellows, Knights of Pythias, Knights of Columbus, etc.
It would seem to me to depend entirely on what the �secrets� are. If such secrets are criminal conspiracies, then I would certainly agree with you. But the �secrets� of fraternal orders concern the mode and method of initiation, which bind its members together through common experience. If a group of individuals wish to congregate together and celebrate rites of initiation, they have the right to do so. They also have the right to privacy concerning them. I�ve been involved in several fraternities, from college to the present, and have found the experience very rewarding; others may find the whole thing pompous and irrelevant, which is also their right.
But it should be noted that neither of the present presidential candidates have attempted to hide their fraternal membership; they have merely refused to violate their vows and sacrifice their honor by blabbing about the Order�s esoterica, which is considered sacred and inviolable by initiates.
It would also be relevant to mention, in regards to your statement, that the free and open society that we now enjoy was framed by initiates of our societies: George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Paul Revere, John Hancock, the Marquis de Lafayette, Samuel Adams, and many others were very active and respected Freemasons, as well as being members of the Sons of Liberty.

Virtus junxit mors non separabit.





[Edited on 31-3-2004 by oconnection]

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Masonic Light]

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Masonic Light]

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Masonic Light]

super duper secret white man's club eh?

Look, I'm about as white as one can get with maybe only Micheal Jackson being whiter and the only club I'm aware of is the one I keep behind the seat of the ratted out old rust bucket that I've been driving/pushing to work every damn day for the past 15 years. If this is the super duper secret club for the white, is there a way I can terminate my membership?

I'd like to join the "sleep late, get free housing, utilities, and an SUV with 24 inch rims and just go from apartment to apartment having sex with different women all day" club. Does anyone have membership forms for this club? If so, I'd like to be a member of it.

masonic light you said ...go to the ballot box and make a difference .....are you kidding me???

youve got your choice this year folks between two skull and bones members.....
go now and vote and make a difference

yeah its all paranoia ...theres nothing to it ....thats what any low level pawn whos been so manipulated they dont even know theyre manipulated would say....

either way has anyone considered that it wouldnt hurt to be ready even if it was all paranoia....

i wouldnt call it paranoia ...and if you think Icke is paranoid id highly suggest reading his books ,cause he just did not dream this stuff up ....an incredible amount of research was done with the help of others and there books also...Icke just put it all together for us to read....

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
i wouldnt call it paranoia ...and if you think Icke is paranoid id highly suggest reading his books ,cause he just did not dream this stuff up ....an incredible amount of research was done with the help of others and there books also...Icke just put it all together for us to read....

Also, try reading Brian Desborough and Jim Marrs. They say truth is stranger than fiction.
And, like watcher sez, you just can't make all this up.
Masonic Light, I wonder if you believe all the stuff you post here, or if it is stuff to convince us not to seek truth!

youve got your choice this year folks between two fun loving Yale fraternity members.....

True. But I would quckly point out that it was the voters who chose these candidates as party nominees through caucuses and primaries. They didn't just pop up one day and say, "Ok, I'm the nominee." The fact is, whether we like it or not, Democratic voters chose Kerry to represent them, and Republican voters chose Bush to represent them. I personally had originally supported Kucinich, but will vote Kerry in November.

BTW: Someone is changing words around in our posts, resulting in all of us being misquoted. I don't know if it's hacker, a moderator, or an administrator, but until the forum is secure, I may cease from posting here. Anyone wishing to discuss the subject further until then is welcomed to email me at [email protected], put "ATS" in the title line.

Fiat Lvx.

Party leaders in any political party are the rich and well connected, they talk about how they want to change the world and what different ideas they have. At the end of the day they are all one big (fat Cat�s) team doing what they wish, for their personal gains you have a few people here leaving messages on this board trying to tell you, no there is nothing wrong with your political systems and What the majority of people want is right, I say wake up and smell the coffee.
Oh one more thing When someone is keeping a secret from you, your natural reaction is to find out what that secret is, but what if there is no secret and reverse psychology is just there to lore you to there ideas and thoughts. Now that�s a Conspiracy for you

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Conspiracy theory is the sophistication of the ignorant.
- Richard Grenier

Mind control and programming is the life of the one who accepts not to question why are we doing this......why do I not question?

Wake up and stop feeling comfortable. Life is not intended to live in fear. When you turn away from the truth my friends, you are living in fear. The kind that has eaten you up already, digested your thoughts and then makes you feel comfortable with what you don't question.


FEAR! Which I live in none.................peace I look forward to. It was your choice, and remember, there will come a DAY when it will be too late to change your minds about this EVIL we all see around us. Accept the truth. The truth that our souls have a right to be saved.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
BTW: Someone is changing words around in our posts, resulting in all of us being misquoted. I don't know if it's hacker, a moderator, or an administrator, but until the forum is secure, I may cease from posting here. Anyone wishing to discuss the subject further until then is welcomed to email me at [email protected], put "ATS" in the title line.

Fiat Lvx.

I have not noticed this with my posts.
1. are you sure?
2. why would anyone bother?
3. is it only your posts?

I have not noticed this with my posts

Someone suggested it was an April Fool's joke, which is probably correct since they've now been changed back. What happened was that several key words would post the exact opposite, or other such nonsense. For example, if someone typed the phrase "secret society", the message displayed said "open society" and so forth.
Somebody has way too much time on their hands.