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An Opinion In Two Parts
page: 1share:
huge code mess up, opening post is below
[edit on 13/8/2008 by budski]
[edit on 13/8/2008 by budski]
I've just come across what appears to be a new moderator tool, [url= here
and I'm impressed but also a little disheartened.
Impressed because this is something that will make a mods life a LOT easier and will avoid confusion for some members.
Personally, as soon as a mod joins a discussion, I automatically assume they are posting as a member.
A little disapointed because this has to be implemented in order for mods to enjoy being "normal" members and for them to post and enjoy discussions without being accused of various things.
That said, the growth rate of ATS would suggest to me that the previous acclimatisation process which many members have gone through (learning the ATS way) is being eroded somewhat because of the rate of growth.
In other words, a little bit of a victim of our own success.
I remember reading a thread when I first joined - here and I've always tried to remember that.
Perhaps this is just a new way of saying the same thing, and hopefully to ease some of the burden on our excellent staff/members.
edit to sort out error
[edit on 13/8/2008 by budski]
[edit on 13/8/2008 by budski]
Impressed because this is something that will make a mods life a LOT easier and will avoid confusion for some members.
Personally, as soon as a mod joins a discussion, I automatically assume they are posting as a member.
A little disapointed because this has to be implemented in order for mods to enjoy being "normal" members and for them to post and enjoy discussions without being accused of various things.
That said, the growth rate of ATS would suggest to me that the previous acclimatisation process which many members have gone through (learning the ATS way) is being eroded somewhat because of the rate of growth.
In other words, a little bit of a victim of our own success.
I remember reading a thread when I first joined - here and I've always tried to remember that.
Perhaps this is just a new way of saying the same thing, and hopefully to ease some of the burden on our excellent staff/members.
edit to sort out error
[edit on 13/8/2008 by budski]
[edit on 13/8/2008 by budski]
The "As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member." is the most interesting part of
that. It reminds me strongly of those "The following program does not represent the opinion of publication/broadcaster/movie company XYZ..."
disclaimer on almost any editorial or opinion based media these days. It makes me wonder just how paranoid ATS's lawyers must be getting lately and
why.
That said, it does sort of address the type of situation I had with a mod awhile back regarding a warning. So maybe it is a good thing?
Of course this policy, if it is now official policy, has absolutely no transparency as the general posting population doesn't see which mods have issued the little warning tags into various posts unless the mod edits the post to include a link to the rules or [snip] something out... so it's basically on the honor system as far as the vast majority of us are concerned.
[edit on 13-8-2008 by burdman30ott6]
That said, it does sort of address the type of situation I had with a mod awhile back regarding a warning. So maybe it is a good thing?
Of course this policy, if it is now official policy, has absolutely no transparency as the general posting population doesn't see which mods have issued the little warning tags into various posts unless the mod edits the post to include a link to the rules or [snip] something out... so it's basically on the honor system as far as the vast majority of us are concerned.
[edit on 13-8-2008 by burdman30ott6]
I think it's a good thing, as so many times mods have had to state explicity that they are 'members' unless acting in a modlike capacity.
Let's remember that they are here for the same reasons as us: to discuss and to be enlightened.
If anything this will serve to remind people that mods enjoy the discussion within ATS as much as the next member and not think that just because a mod says something that it is the ATS party line so to speak.
I like it. I think it's a good idea.
Mods...take your membership back...
edit - i'm an idiot who types nonsense
[edit on 13-8-2008 by machinegun_go_go]
Let's remember that they are here for the same reasons as us: to discuss and to be enlightened.
If anything this will serve to remind people that mods enjoy the discussion within ATS as much as the next member and not think that just because a mod says something that it is the ATS party line so to speak.
I like it. I think it's a good idea.
Mods...take your membership back...
edit - i'm an idiot who types nonsense
[edit on 13-8-2008 by machinegun_go_go]
Personally, as soon as a mod joins a discussion, I automatically assume they are posting as a member.
That was my take on things too..
I suppose there are good and bad things to everything. Personally I don't see how abusive mods could be seeing as how it is an open discussion forum for all to see.
I think the staff is better at following the T&C than members. In the end, that's all that matters right? We come here to discuss these alternative topics within the T&C.
I agree that a mod shouldn't moderate a thread that he or she is participating in, but I don't think that policy needs to be announced in every
single post.
The added disclaimer, ironically, only serves to point out the "otherness" of a mod being a member, too. Like Budski, I assume a mod is posting as a run of the mill member except when speaking as a moderator -- which is always obvious.
I can ignore the "Moderator" and "Super Moderator" designations in their avatars while carrying on a conversation, but it's hard to ignore the disclaimer in every post. I think the added text actually does a disservice to the staff who just want to be able to post like the rest of usrubes agoraphobes members.
[edit on 13-8-2008 by Tuning Spork]
The added disclaimer, ironically, only serves to point out the "otherness" of a mod being a member, too. Like Budski, I assume a mod is posting as a run of the mill member except when speaking as a moderator -- which is always obvious.
I can ignore the "Moderator" and "Super Moderator" designations in their avatars while carrying on a conversation, but it's hard to ignore the disclaimer in every post. I think the added text actually does a disservice to the staff who just want to be able to post like the rest of us
[edit on 13-8-2008 by Tuning Spork]
Really?
I think that it's just reinforcing that because I'm sure that there are some, not the likes of whom are discussing this, who are not as quick to realise when someone is posting as a member or as a mod.
to quote metallica...
sad but true.
Peace,
MGGG
I think that it's just reinforcing that because I'm sure that there are some, not the likes of whom are discussing this, who are not as quick to realise when someone is posting as a member or as a mod.
to quote metallica...
sad but true.
Peace,
MGGG
This is obviously in response to when Mods are posting as members in a thread where members become a wee bit hostile, and perhaps wonder why those
Mods do not do something about it.
I think it's a great idea.
I think it's a great idea.
I don't like this new development. It reeks of trying to please all the people all the time. Or even a CYA sort of move. It makes the mods stand out
as "separate" even more in my opinion.
The membership has been told that mods are people, too and have opinions of their own. The membership has been told that mods don't moderate threads they post in. If the membership is still crying about that, then let them cry. It's silly to think a moderator should be a robot and announce "I'm speaking as a human being here" with every post. I think it's extreme overkill.
Just my opinion. I love you all!
The membership has been told that mods are people, too and have opinions of their own. The membership has been told that mods don't moderate threads they post in. If the membership is still crying about that, then let them cry. It's silly to think a moderator should be a robot and announce "I'm speaking as a human being here" with every post. I think it's extreme overkill.
Just my opinion. I love you all!
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
Feels good to be luved.
Not to get off topic but I do like your new avatar...
Back on topic.. I agree with Tuning Spork:
It's no big deal though... I'm sure the staff discussed it democratically.
I love you all!
Feels good to be luved.
Not to get off topic but I do like your new avatar...
Back on topic.. I agree with Tuning Spork:
I don't think that policy needs to be announced in every single post
It's no big deal though... I'm sure the staff discussed it democratically.
I'm not sure I like this either. Imo if there's any thread where a mod should act as a mod in some cases, it's the ones in which he/she are
participating. If they've been a participant in the thread, they probably have a better understanding of that thread and can really moderate better
than a mod just browsing through checking stuff. The trust not to abuse the power was given with the title. And so far imo they have all not only
deserved it, but are smart enough to know to leave their personal feelings out of it when making decisions that affect the board. And no one is a
better example of this than SO himself, from what I have seen.
I question this action, but there is usually a good reason for such things, as I have come learn over the years here. To me it is coming across like ATS wants to distance itself as an organization from its moderators opinions, which I hope is not the case. And I'm not sure how that could even work. The opinions of the mods are not just expressed through member like discussions, but are evident in actions they take moderating the board. They are trusted for those opinions and actions. At least they used to be- I hope that has not changed.
I question this action, but there is usually a good reason for such things, as I have come learn over the years here. To me it is coming across like ATS wants to distance itself as an organization from its moderators opinions, which I hope is not the case. And I'm not sure how that could even work. The opinions of the mods are not just expressed through member like discussions, but are evident in actions they take moderating the board. They are trusted for those opinions and actions. At least they used to be- I hope that has not changed.
I don't know what to make of it.
There are glaring examples of obsequiosness all over ATS.
A thread can elicit a certain response solely because of who authored it.
Example: SkepticOverlord creates a thread. Just watch the star count rocket and the responses of "Bravo!" "Applause!" Way to go!" mount up.
Nothing against SO, but that's just a fact of ATS life.
Now, to say that a mod or SM will elicit the same response as Joe Blow or jso simply because they encase their response in a box that says "I'm putting my hammer away for this thread" is ridiculous.
Having a SuperMod say "You're wasting your time on ATS" is not the same as having a regular member say it, for obvious reasons, regardless of how many times they say "just my opinion, of course".
If they want to post as a member, give them a separate non-mod account so they can't be identified.
There are glaring examples of obsequiosness all over ATS.
A thread can elicit a certain response solely because of who authored it.
Example: SkepticOverlord creates a thread. Just watch the star count rocket and the responses of "Bravo!" "Applause!" Way to go!" mount up.
Nothing against SO, but that's just a fact of ATS life.
Now, to say that a mod or SM will elicit the same response as Joe Blow or jso simply because they encase their response in a box that says "I'm putting my hammer away for this thread" is ridiculous.
Having a SuperMod say "You're wasting your time on ATS" is not the same as having a regular member say it, for obvious reasons, regardless of how many times they say "just my opinion, of course".
If they want to post as a member, give them a separate non-mod account so they can't be identified.
I'm no authoritive source, but I think this tool was brought in in response to a few unpleasant interactions that have occurred over the past couple
months.
It can be used at the discretion of the moderator, and I suspect not all moderators will use it all the time when posting as a member. It is indeed unfortunate that something such as this has to be implemented, but ATS is growing bigger and bigger, and there are people that think because we are staff we are not entitled to offer our opinions on the topics here.
As for the 'not moderating in a thread you are participating in' part of it, that is to avoid members accusing staff of favouritism and discrimination.
It can be used at the discretion of the moderator, and I suspect not all moderators will use it all the time when posting as a member. It is indeed unfortunate that something such as this has to be implemented, but ATS is growing bigger and bigger, and there are people that think because we are staff we are not entitled to offer our opinions on the topics here.
As for the 'not moderating in a thread you are participating in' part of it, that is to avoid members accusing staff of favouritism and discrimination.
Just reading the few responses we have currently that are looking upon this as negative, what do you all have in common? All longstanding members
that have probably developed some relationships with the current staff of this board. So for you to differentiate our contributions as members and as
staff.. it might be a little easier than for others.
For newer members or those that are not familiar with any of the staff, it is a common theme when we engage threads that they feel bullied, unable to disagree, or when they do they say they're willing to be reprimanded for their opinion. This mindset is not something we want to be associated with.
So while it is unfortunate that this is something we've come to.. I think it is necessary.
For our senior members.. it might seem unnecessary. But for our newer members.. it really takes the wind out of their sail when they try to scream that they can't post because a staff member will pick on them.
Those that have been here for any length of time know that's not how we operate.
Now.. was this as a member or as a staff member?
[edit on 13-8-2008 by chissler]
For newer members or those that are not familiar with any of the staff, it is a common theme when we engage threads that they feel bullied, unable to disagree, or when they do they say they're willing to be reprimanded for their opinion. This mindset is not something we want to be associated with.
So while it is unfortunate that this is something we've come to.. I think it is necessary.
For our senior members.. it might seem unnecessary. But for our newer members.. it really takes the wind out of their sail when they try to scream that they can't post because a staff member will pick on them.
Those that have been here for any length of time know that's not how we operate.
Now.. was this as a member or as a staff member?
[edit on 13-8-2008 by chissler]
reply to post by jsobecky
I think that's not putting enough faith in our staff. I'm not kissing up here. Just saying that we are all people and we all make mistakes. The staff members have shown great character to achieve their current positions so we need to give them the benefit of the doubt.
They should be able to participate without allowing their feelings regarding the issue to affect their judgement on moderating. I think as long as everyone follows the T&C there are no problems... no? No one should feel like they have to agree with a mod, supermod, etc. I think as long as it follows the T&C everyone from newbie to supermod should be able to have an opinion.
As a matter a fact I'm going to find a thread right now with a mod posting in it and the debate is on!!
If they want to post as a member, give them a separate non-mod account so they can't be identified.
I think that's not putting enough faith in our staff. I'm not kissing up here. Just saying that we are all people and we all make mistakes. The staff members have shown great character to achieve their current positions so we need to give them the benefit of the doubt.
They should be able to participate without allowing their feelings regarding the issue to affect their judgement on moderating. I think as long as everyone follows the T&C there are no problems... no? No one should feel like they have to agree with a mod, supermod, etc. I think as long as it follows the T&C everyone from newbie to supermod should be able to have an opinion.
As a matter a fact I'm going to find a thread right now with a mod posting in it and the debate is on!!
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
To be Blunt
Sadly it seems that some people are not able - or are completely unwilling - to understand that moderators are members first, and moderators second.
It also seems that certain people think that moderators shouldn't have opinions, or that because they do there is some kind of agenda at play when they express them.
Obviously, they are wrong in their assumption, but it does not stop them from expressing that assumption, causing the thread to go off topic, disrupting the flow of the conversation and ruining the usually good natured and intelligent discussions people want to have. That then becomes a problem where moderation is required but...as there are also those who think moderators will "shape" a topic by moderating out opinions that they don't agree with we are instructed not to moderate threads we participate in as members.
As a moderator, I do not want to be censored. I was a member here for a long time before I became a mod. I made contacts, friends and a few enemies on the way, and had some very good debates and converstions. I do not want to lose that by having to create a second name and posting about my favourite subjects anonymously, just because someone cannot differentiate between enforcement of the sites Terms and Conditions and my opinion.
My opinions are as valid as anyone else's, but not more valid. When I write with confidence its because I have the power of my convictions in what I'm writing, and if people can't handle that the problem lies squarely with them, and not with the staff, or the board.
I'm passionate about this because I've been a victim of this mentality recently. To me its uncalled for. Its shallow, its a cheap shot and it means that the person posting such things really has nothing to offer to a constructive debate.
The moderator tags are potentially the only way we can try and get this message across because they are "in your face" and that seems to be all that some people can understand, particularly in todays polarised society, and particularly in the subjects covered on ATS where some members adhere to only one side of a viewpoint with the kind of religious zeal that you would have expected from the interregators of the inquisition, and believe everyone else is a shill, a disinfo agent, cointelpro or some other paranoic description.
Moderators are People Too, (And they have opinions)
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
[edit on 14/0808/08 by neformore]
Originally posted by neformore
Originally posted by TruthTellist
In fact, the growing consensus amongst the non -'debunkist skepticus' is that it is NATO planes and private companies doing this (most likely under the guise of weather modification)- debunkists will say otherwise.
NATO does not have the planes to do it with.
Maybe you ought to read up on the strength and composition of air forces before you make such a ridiculous claim.
[edit on 13/0808/08 by neformore]
This person only shows up when the debunkers are losing the debate, perhaps to bolster their argument with a dose of authority and a vouch for their credibility.
*Then when I point it out he/she says:
"I'm not moderating this thread.
I'm providing my own personal opinions.
If you feel strongly about the issue then maybe you should file a complaint via the complaint/suggestion feature in your member centre and other moderators who are not involved in discussing the topic will look at it."
*It is As if I wouldn't get punished for complaining (and 'going over her head') and possibly end up either banned or on "Blacklisted" where by my posts would be subjected to even closer scrutiny by even more moderators - possible even super moderators.
I certainly wouldn't talk to anyone the way this moderator talked to me - I felt that this treatment of me by her was wrong, and there is really nothing I can do about that won't get ME into trouble.
The Thread Wherein I was Victimized
[edit on 14-8-2008 by TruthTellist]
The only negative for me is that it had to be done to help the mods be able to post as "normal" members,and for me there are two sides to the
coin.
My disappointment is directed at some who MAY have helped bring this about.
On the other hand, I like it because it brings clarity and because it can only help the boards.
[edit on 14/8/2008 by budski]
My disappointment is directed at some who MAY have helped bring this about.
On the other hand, I like it because it brings clarity and because it can only help the boards.
[edit on 14/8/2008 by budski]
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
This person only shows up when the debunkers are losing the debate, perhaps to bolster their argument with a dose of authority and a vouch for their credibility.
"This person" shows up when he can spare the time from work and family, and as he lives in the UK, thats not the times that alot of US posters are on.
There is nothing in any of my posts in that, or other threads, that breaks any moderator conduct requirements, or the Terms and Conditions of ATS.
Just because I have opinions contrary to yours, does not mean that they are wrong, or that I should not post them here. You are attempting to censor my opinion solely because I am a moderator, and it will not work.
That is most certainly NOT how ATS works, it never has been, and it never will be.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by neformore
"You are attempting to censor my opinion solely because I am a moderator, and it will not work. "
No. I am not.
Whereas YOU, on the other hand are fully capable and have all the tools and necessary contacts available to you to actually Censor, Delete and/or Edit MY opinions.
How dare you attempt to play the victim. How dare you.
[edit on 14-8-2008 by TruthTellist]
"You are attempting to censor my opinion solely because I am a moderator, and it will not work. "
No. I am not.
Whereas YOU, on the other hand are fully capable and have all the tools and necessary contacts available to you to actually Censor, Delete and/or Edit MY opinions.
How dare you attempt to play the victim. How dare you.
[edit on 14-8-2008 by TruthTellist]
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