Quantum Psychology Book Club

reply to post by Xtrozero


I am glad to see we are getting some more company along for the ride.

How does the Zen Masters response tie in to your explanation of the parable?

reply to post by shipovfools


Wow! I'm really happy to see this thread has taken off! I guess I'll have to start checking back here more often I haven't read through all the replies yet because I want my own first post to be "unadulterated." [edit to add: by first post I mean my first serious reply to the first exercise poster.] As you can see, I dropped the ball in coming back to post my reply to the parable earlier...so here goes...

OK, so the first and rather obvious thing that strikes me - probably obvious because the quoted passage begins with Simon studying Zen - is that the Kafka parable is much like a Zen koan. This may be obvious but I find it significant because it sounds like the novel wasn't part of his training at the Zen school, although this particular passage very well could have been - a very powerful example of synchronicity at work, I think. Whatever path you are traveling, you will do well to heed the apparently "random" signs that appear along the way (just don't lose yr critical thinking skills in the process! that path leads to superstition.)

The guy at the door (in the parable, I am now...) gives away his clothes, his money, all his worldly possessions. We often think of people as spending their lives gaining material things, and yet in this tale, the man wastes his life away trading them in for a goal that he never achieves. Does that mean Kafka is suggesting we should strive for material wealth rather than give it away in vain hope of some spiritual goal? It might appear so on the surface, but I doubt it...

I tend to see this as metaphorical. I see it as the aspirant sacrificing those things that are most valuable to him, or perhaps even deeper, giving away or giving up parts of himself. This is like the idea of peeling away the layers of the onion...letting loose all the B$ (!) baggage until you get to the raw core or reality.

Some other observations...

Kafka calls this door 'the door of the Law.' And he also mentions that 'the law exists for all.' This reminds me of Crowley's "Book of the Law" and the related compendium 'the Holy Books of Thelema' subtitled 'the Law is for All,' which itself comes from Crowley's own writings (and i THINK from 'the Book of the Law.') Now, I am not trying to drag in an infamous occultism just for the hell of it, but anyone familiar with RAW's work will know that the author had a great interest in (and perhaps even respect for) Crowley and Thelema. So perhaps that is another reason he is(was...RIP RAW) fond of this passage.

Near the end the character is told that this door existed only for him. He realizes that each individual is given his/her own unique path to.....whatever. But he wasted his life by judging himself against other people's paths - i.e. by giving away parts of himself in order to gain admittance - any by sacrificing rather than embracing his individuality, he finds himself locked out of 'heaven' (or....whatever) for ever.

What does the closing door mean? A lost opportunity? Death? Transcendence? The transcendence that Death may bring? Perhaps, but I would like to think such awakenings can happen when faced with any "end of the road" without necessarily sacrificing one's life. Perhaps we are all standing in the face of such doors, making the same mistakes over and over again, and only when the door is shut in our faces, will we find other ways around...




[edit on 27-8-2008 by shipovfools]

Originally posted by americandingbat
...and by the time I have anything to say the rest of you will be done with Wilson altogether?

I doubt it. I've been reading and re-reading ...and thoroughly enjoying more each time! - the man's books for years. Maybe its an acquired taste. The first time I read Illuminatis! I went insane, the second time I became almost too normal, and the third time I became thoroughly enlightened ... ! j/k

Seeing as how I tried to get this rolling right away and have lately been lax in replying myself, I think a slow approach would be best. This isn't a thread for breaking news or idle speculation, or even research...it is mostly about reading, understanding, contemplating, and then contemplating the very acts of reading, understanding and contemplating, and further examining the act of contemplation your contemplations about your comprehensions and your consciousness and interpretations...

If that paragraph made any sense to you, then you will totally dig the late great Robert Anton Wilson (shine on you crazy diamond...)

Originally posted by Karlhungis
The deeper meaning though... I think that it, combined with the Zen master's example, is a statement about how there is a door for everyone but you can not rely on anyone to show you through it or to give you permission to enter. If you wait for permission and assistance, then you will miss your chance and it will be closed to you forever.

Good point here. I came to same conclusion that 'there is a door for everyone.' I like your idea that you can't wait for someone else to give you permission or assistance. That also ties in to the idea of following your own true will (which will make sense if you read my last post relating RAW to Crowley and you know anything about Thelema) or at least putting faith in your own "reality tunnel" and realizing that most of reality is subjective and the best anyone can do is follow their own path.

[edit] also...thanks for the link to the online text. i have the book myself, but i didn't bother to hunt down a link for those who may not. i first read "Prometheus Rising" on a PDF so i understand how it may be more convenient to find an electronic version. but for Wilson, i prefer having a hard copy in hand and in my collection.

[edit on 27-8-2008 by shipovfools]

Originally posted by americandingbat
What I took from both these parables was that we should question our assumptions about authority.

In Kafka's parable (and this is made more clear in the original), the guard does not prevent the man from entering the Door of the Law, but instead tells him that he will prevent this, and that if the man does enter he faces much worse guards within. Here's the passage:

Very insightful! I never thought of it this way...that the man is never actually prevented from passing the doorway (because he never actually tries!) but is only kept out by the fear that he gives into. I think this is a very important lesson we can learn from this tale.

Good thread. I intend to post my own interpretations at some stage.

Starred and flagged.





P.S.

Shipovfools check your u2u inbox, damn it.

OK, so lets move on to chapter two.

This chapter opens by discussing the Copenhagen Interpretation and two different views regarding it – that “there is no deep reality” and that there may be such a reality but “scientific method can never experimentally locate or demonstrate [it.]” This is all based on quantum physics and I would suggest you read the entire chapter to get a full grasp of the context for what follows. (Quantum physicists may be perhaps exempt from this suggestion but I would still recommend the read!)

Wilson explains: “our inability to find one deep reality registers a demonstrable fact about scientific method and human neurology, while the statement 'there is no deep reality' offers a metaphysical opinion about something we cannot test scientifically or experience existentially.”

Wilson defines statements as either meaningful or meaningless. A meaningless statement is one that cannot be tested by any imaginable theory. An incredibly outlandish idea may be meaningful if one can conceive of a test which might prove it (even if the ability to do so is not yet within our grasp.)

With this in mind, he breaks the Aristotelian logic of true/false in half. Now we have four options: true (proven), false (proven to be untrue), indeterminate (possibly true but we don't yet have the ability to test it), and meaningless (forever untestable.)

Meaningful statements are very precise and, assuming we share the same vocabulary, can be easily measured in some believable hypothetical situation. Meaningless statements are those which rely on abstract statements that we cannot conceivably prove in any objective manner.

Exercises suggested for this chapter:

1)Let each member of the group classify each of the following prepositions as meaningful or meaningless.
1.I hauled out the garbage this morning.
2.God appeared to me this morning.
3.I saw a UFO this morning.
4.This table top measures two feet by four feet.
5.Space becomes curved in the vicinity of heavy masses, such as stars.
6.Space does not become curved at all; light simply bends in the vicinity of heavy masses, such as stars.
7.Defendants are innocent until the jury pronounces them guilty.
8.The umpire's decision is binding.
9.“History is the march of God through the world.” (Hegel)
10.In the act of conception, the male and female each contribute 23 chromosones.
11.The devil made me do it.
12.My unconscious made me do it.
13.Conditioned reflexes made me do it.
14.A church is the house of God.
15.Anybody who criticizes the government is a traitor.
16.Abraham Lincoln served as President between 1960 and 1968.

2)Where disagreements arise, attempt to avoid conflict (quarrel) and seek to understand why disagreements must arise in judging some of these propositions.

Originally posted by shipovfools
2)Where disagreements arise, attempt to avoid conflict (quarrel) and seek to understand why disagreements must arise in judging some of these propositions.

I think this last question may be one of the most important "lessons" we can learn. If we can understand what divides us all so much and why these divisions provoke such strong reactions in us, perhaps we can all be on the road to more peaceful and enlightened existences.

1.I hauled out the garbage this morning.
Meaningless.


2.God appeared to me this morning.
Meaningless.

3.I saw a UFO this morning.
Meaningless.

4.This table top measures two feet by four feet.
Meaningful.

5.Space becomes curved in the vicinity of heavy masses, such as stars.
Meaningful.

6.Space does not become curved at all; light simply bends in the vicinity of heavy masses, such as stars.
Meaningful.

7.Defendants are innocent until the jury pronounces them guilty.
Meaningless.

8.The umpire's decision is binding.
Meaningless.

9.“History is the march of God through the world.” (Hegel)
Meaningful.

10.In the act of conception, the male and female each contribute 23 chromosones.
Meaningful.

11.The devil made me do it.
Meaningless.

12.My unconscious made me do it.
Meaningless.

13.Conditioned reflexes made me do it.
Meaningless.

14.A church is the house of God.
Meaningless.

15.Anybody who criticizes the government is a traitor.
Meaningless.

16.Abraham Lincoln served as President between 1960 and 1968.
Meaningful.

Actually, I just re-read my post, and I retract #9. I said Hegel's statement was meaningful and I meant to say it was meaningless. I wasnt paying close enough attention when I wrote it. Sorry.

Did I accidentally break the book club thread? Or did everyone go camping for Labor day weekend.

shipofools what is with the smi2le logo graphic. I thought they went under when the owner went on to another existence. Are they still in business? Just curious. I still have some of the products I purchased from them to remind me of that time period. I purchased a lot of their RALA some time ago. Anyway I am reading the quantum psychology book you linked in. I did not have that one. I am a big collector of ebooks of the fringes of science. Thanks for the reference.

1.I hauled out the garbage this morning.
meaningless
2.God appeared to me this morning.
meaningless
3.I saw a UFO this morning.
meaningless
4.This table top measures two feet by four feet.
meaningful
5.Space becomes curved in the vicinity of heavy masses, such as stars.
meaningless
6.Space does not become curved at all; light simply bends in the vicinity of heavy masses, such as stars.
meaningless
7.Defendants are innocent until the jury pronounces them guilty.
meaningless
8.The umpire's decision is binding.
meaningless
9.“History is the march of God through the world.” (Hegel)
meaningless
10.In the act of conception, the male and female each contribute 23 chromosones.
meaningful
11.The devil made me do it.
meaningless
12.My unconscious made me do it.
meaningless
13.Conditioned reflexes made me do it.
meaningful
14.A church is the house of God.
meaningless
15.Anybody who criticizes the government is a traitor.
meaningless
16.Abraham Lincoln served as President between 1960 and...
meaningful

I will admit that I am a little sketchy on what he was trying to get across with this exercise, so I am not real solid in my answer.

I think you and I are feeling it is the same thing, "Can this statement be measured objectively?" we just came to a couple different conclusions about what could or could not be measured.

I have been neglecting Quantum Psychology this past week; busy with other stuff. And I really think I need to read this chapter pretty carefully before answering. I'll try to get through it tonight, though.

EDIT: I finally got through the chapter, though not as carefully as I would like. Here are my answers to Question 1:

1)Let each member of the group classify each of the following prepositions as meaningful or meaningless.
1.I hauled out the garbage this morning. -- meaningful
2.God appeared to me this morning. --meaningless
3.I saw a UFO this morning. -- meaningful
4.This table top measures two feet by four feet. -- meaningful
5.Space becomes curved in the vicinity of heavy masses, such as stars. --meaningful
6.Space does not become curved at all; light simply bends in the vicinity of heavy masses, such as stars. -- meaningful
7.Defendants are innocent until the jury pronounces them guilty. -- meaningless
8.The umpire's decision is binding. -- meaningless
9.“History is the march of God through the world.” (Hegel) -- meaningless
10.In the act of conception, the male and female each contribute 23 chromosones. -- meaningful
11.The devil made me do it. -- meaningless
12.My unconscious made me do it. -- meaningless
13.Conditioned reflexes made me do it. -- meaningless
14.A church is the house of God. -- meaningless
15.Anybody who criticizes the government is a traitor. -- meaningless
16.Abraham Lincoln served as President between 1960 and 1968. -- meaningful

I have to say I'm not very clear on this exercise, though. Maybe it'll become more clear as the book continues. I'm having a hard time with the idea of "meaninglessness" -- I understand "unprovability", but I see "meaning" as something humans give to the world around them.

So, for instance, the statement "The umpire's decision is binding" can be categorized as, I think, "meaningless" according to this model because there is no absolute "testability" to it. But then again, it seems meaningful that people put together a set of more or less random rules about how a ball should be reacted to, and included a figure named "umpire" who holds control of the Truth.

I don't know. This chapter irritated me. That's not a bad thing, it just means I have to think about what's bothering me about it, what I agree and disagree with, and what Wilson hopes to accomplish by applying this dichotomy to the world and tossing out everything that is experienced but not proved as meaningless.

Edit to fix formatting

[edit on 3-9-2008 by americandingbat]

reply to post by americandingbat


Lol on the "irritated part." I found it annoying as well.

But, who knows where it is going, perhaps it will turn out to be meaningful rather than meaningless.

Measurable is the only thing I could come up with. Even the ones measurable and false, were still measurable. It seems we all got a similar idea about that aspect of it, and we just disagree about what can be measured objectively.

Which, considering how different all people are in their outlook, not surprising at all.

I thought it was funny at the end of the exercise how she sort of instructs us not to fight. Lol. I cant imagine fighting over something I understand the point of so poorly.

Originally posted by UFOTECH
shipofools what is with the smi2le logo graphic. I thought they went under when the owner went on to another existence. Are they still in business? Just curious. I still have some of the products I purchased from them to remind me of that time period. I purchased a lot of their RALA some time ago. Anyway I am reading the quantum psychology book you linked in. I did not have that one. I am a big collector of ebooks of the fringes of science. Thanks for the reference.

Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about! The S.M.I^2.L.E. acronym was coined by Dr. Timothy Leary. I made the sig myself inspired by his ideas - I didn't know there was a company that had borrowed it for their name!

This list of meaningful/meaningless is actually tougher than it looks at first! For example, I would think "I hauled out the garbage this morning" is meaningful - so long as we can agree that "garbage" refers to whatever is in your trash bags. But obviously one man's trash is another's treasure (to steal a well worn cliche,) so who's to say what's garbage? I think you almost have to define your parameters and common definitions. For example, "this table measures 2 by 2 feet" (or whatever) assumes that we all share the same definition of table and feet. That should maybe be a given, but then again, so should the rather general idea of garbage. How far do we take this literalness?

-ay someone "is" one or the other unless you were actually there to witness the so-called crime.

8.The umpire's decision is binding.
- Binding on whom? Within the parameters of a baseball game, I think this would be meaningful. As a general statement, this must be meaningless.

9.“History is the march of God through the world.” (Hegel)
- Meaningless. If we write, "Hegel says that history is..." that could be meaningful. But the statement itself is not testable.

10.In the act of conception, the male and female each contribute 23 chromosones.
- Meaningful.

11.The devil made me do it.
- Meaningless.

12.My unconscious made me do it.
- Meaningless.

13.Conditioned reflexes made me do it.
- Meaningless.

14.A church is the house of God.
- Meaningless.

15.Anybody who criticizes the government is a traitor.
- Meaningless.

16.Abraham Lincoln served as President between 1960 and 1968.
- Meaningful.

Thanks again to everyone for contributing and making this a very interesting thread. Before we move on to the next chapter, I'd love to see some further debate about how/why we made our conclusions in this excercise.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by americandingbat

 

Measurable is the only thing I could come up with. Even the ones measurable and false, were still measurable. It seems we all got a similar idea about that aspect of it, and we just disagree about what can be measured objectively.

You hit the nail on the head. I think RAW included the "measurable but false" statements just to throw us off. False statements still have meaning, albeit one which contradicts the facts.

I did not know the history of that Smi2le I thought it was something they made up but it figures considering the owners were into selling nootropics and cutting edge supplements focused on brain and body enhancement.