"If I have to lie, steal, cheat, or kill..."

In the 1936 book Gone With The Wind (and 1939 movie) the protagonist Scarlett O'Hara arrives at her ruined home after walking scores of miles through imminent danger and calamity during the American Civil War only to find that her mother has died, her family is penniless, and there is not a morsel of food to be found except dried up radishes in a dusty garden.

At this moment she famously proclaims

As God is my witness, as God is my witness they're not going to lick me. I'm going to live through this and when it's all over, I'll never be hungry again. No, nor any of my folk. If I have to lie, steal, cheat or kill. As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again.

In honor of my new avatar and my most favorite movie of all time I pose the question to you:

Would you do literally anything - lie, steal, cheat, or kill (or perhaps something worse Scarlett omits) - to protect your family from hardship, from starvation, from homelessness just as Scarlett did?

p.s. I put this in this forum rather than the Survival forum because I wanted to get a wider range of answers. I think we know what most of the Survivalists would say

To protect myself and my family in a situation X scenario?

I would certainly lie, cheat and steal... but doubt I could bring myself to kill, unless it was a lserious ife or death situation and then only in defense.

Would prefer to use my brain, although hunting animals would be an option.


I imagine it would be the same for most other people, although it depends on who we would be lying to? Lying to dangerous people about the whereabouts of hidden stock.... sure.
Lying to avoid the clutches of an oppresive invader or government... sure.

Cheating? Not sure how that would work exactly... I imagine it could possibly involve faking ID or something? Sure if necessary.

Stealing? All depends on what i would be stealing and from whom?

Originally posted by mr-lizard


I imagine it would be the same for most other people, although it depends on who we would be lying to?
Stealing? All depends on what i would be stealing and from whom?

The point is it could be anyone you might have to lie to or steal from. It could be your neighbor, your coworker, your mailman, people you've known your whole life. Or it could mean you have to cozy up to someone you despise.

This is by no means exclusive to situation x. In day to day life or in a crisis, would your actions be different if there was a threat to your loved ones?

reply to post by sc2099


I think that many people can't even fathom what it would be like to be in that situation. It is really tough to say what we would do when something we can't comprehend happens.

I had a similar kind of a soul search happen after I read "The Road". It painted a very bleak but plausable vision of the apocalypse. It was a man who did whatever it took to keep his son and himself alive. Reading it did make me realize that if I were in that situation, where society has completely dissolved into canibalism, starvation, rape..etc, then yes... I would do whatever it takes. Your only other choice is to kill yourself and your family to end the suffering, which would be probably a much more difficult choice than it sounds now.

Again though, society would have to be over for me to be that completely callous and afraid of everyone else. If it just turns into a depression or civil war...etc, then I think it would be a sliding scale of morality. Each situation would dictate how I would behave.

I would not be above killing, lieing, or cheating IF the correct circumstances dictated it. Obviously, my circumstances would not necessarily match yours or anyone elses. But I would not watch my family die if I could save them.

Originally posted by Karlhungis
reply to post by sc2099

 

Reading it did make me realize that if I were in that situation, where society has completely dissolved into canibalism, starvation, rape..etc, then yes... I would do whatever it takes. Your only other choice is to kill yourself and your family to end the suffering, which would be probably a much more difficult choice than it sounds now.

Again though, society would have to be over for me to be that completely callous and afraid of everyone else. If it just turns into a depression or civil war...etc, then I think it would be a sliding scale of morality.

I don't know if what you said meant to come out this way or not, but it sounds like you are saying morality depends on society. No society=almost anything goes.

Realistically, I would agree that I would most likely lie, cheat, and steal in certain extreme scenarios. However, since I am not in that situation, I would like to imagine (even if naively) that I wouldn't do those because they are against my morals.

reply to post by Alexander_Supertramp


More or less, that is what I am saying. I would love to be a saint. I am not a saint though, as I doubt that most are. Today, with society firmly in tact, I would not steal from, lie to or kill my neighbor. However, if society crumbled, we were all starving to death, and I firmly believed that they were planning on killing my daughter for their next meal, then I would kill to defend my family.

A sliding scale.

I would do....

Whatever I was compelled to do when the time came to do something.

Lying, cheating, stealing, killing? I could say no no poo poo now... but when the time came to either win, lose, or draw.... it's all up to a roll of (from our perspective...) God's magic dice.

Would I lie, cheat, steal or kill to protect and provide for my family?

It depends on the situation, or rather, the society and times I live in. It also depends on who I'm lying to, cheating, stealing from and killing. But, to put it simply, most likely, yes, I would do that.

reply to post by sc2099

I guess you probably would not with the thought of your name. Probably be more worried about your shoes, I hate ignorant people!!!!!

Originally posted by seek4 truth
reply to post by sc2099

 

I guess you probably would not with the thought of your name. Probably be more worried about your shoes, I hate ignorant people!!!!!

Self loathing is a terrible thing.

Not just another one liner...

My own resolve and personal choice never to kill is inaliable, no matter what someone tries to tell or teach me or condition me to believe. The reason is, that I dont actually believe in death. I also believe that the murder is to the deteriment of the person murdering me, not to my detriment.

But I wouldnt condemn the people who kill in the belief that its their only possibility to survive and protect their family.

To answer my own question, I would do just about anything to not end up homeless or starving. In desperate times the most desperate actions are sometimes the only ones that have any effect on a situation. But today civilization is still in place, so I hardly believe that any such drastic actions are necessary.

What's really curious to me is that so many people seem unwilling to take normal measures to prevent them from ending up in a desperate situation. They just close their eyes and hope for the best. I prefer prevention 100%.

I think any parent would do whatever was necessary to provide food for their children. It's human instinct to want your children to survive.

I can't think of anything I wouldn't do to protect my children.

However, I know that anything I do that goes against my core principles will way heavily on me. But I'd rather that burden be placed on me, then on my children.

I'd like to say that I would never harm another human being, but the truth is I would be lying. If someone seriously threatened my children, husband, and home I would do whatever was necessary to protect them in that moment and would worry about the more ethical issues once the danger had passed.

Lying, cheating, and stealing are another matter. I'd never do any of the above out of sheer greed. But if survival in general were at stake I'm afraid I would probably do whatever it took to protect my family.

As KH said, I don't think anyone know for certain how they'll react in a specific situation. I like to think myself above killing for survival, but if it came down to me or them, I think my choice would be the most obvious one, 'them". Survival is a powerful instinct in animals, and when cornered most will fight tooth and nail to live.

I've never understood why some people surrender without a fight.. You hear about it all the time in robberies. When you're told to kneel on the ground with your back to your assailant, you're more than likely going to die executioner style. Why not fight back? Dying like a lamb on slaughtering day is not an option for me.

Originally posted by maria_stardust
I think any parent would do whatever was necessary to provide food for their children. It's human instinct to want your children to survive.

I can't think of anything I wouldn't do to protect my children.

However, I know that anything I do that goes against my core principles will way heavily on me. But I'd rather that burden be placed on me, then on my children.

Well there went my answer to the OP's question. I would do whatever it took to help my children survive even if it took my life. I would try my best to not let my children see any of it or tell them about it unless necessary. If I let my children die without doing everything possible to keep them alive and safe, then I could never live or die knowing that.

People have cut off their own body parts to survive so there's no telling what anyone could do in a dire situation, especially with kids.

Originally posted by sc2099In honor of my new avatar and my most favorite movie of all time I pose the question to you:

Would you do literally anything - lie, steal, cheat, or kill (or perhaps something worse Scarlett omits) - to protect your family from hardship, from starvation, from homelessness just as Scarlett did?

One of my favorite movies too!

I can't honestly answer that question. I have never been put in that position. As of now, I would say an emphatic NO! But I love my family and would walk through hell for my sons.

Originally posted by LLoyd45

I've never understood why some people surrender without a fight.. You hear about it all the time in robberies. When you're told to kneel on the ground with your back to your assailant, you're more than likely going to die executioner style. Why not fight back? Dying like a lamb on slaughtering day is not an option for me.

THIS is exactly why I don't buy the official 9/11 story. Two plane loads of people against a few guys with box cutters and absolutely no one stood up and fought? No effing way. If you knew or even thought you were about to die why would you not fight back, if not to save yourself but to at least prevent additional death? I will never believe that out of so many people there was not one hero among cowards, flight 93 excluded.

Originally posted by sc2099

THIS is exactly why I don't buy the official 9/11 story. Two plane loads of people against a few guys with box cutters and absolutely no one stood up and fought? No effing way. If you knew or even thought you were about to die why would you not fight back, if not to save yourself but to at least prevent additional death? I will never believe that out of so many people there was not one hero among cowards, flight 93 excluded.

Those are my thoughts and sentiments on the matter too SC2099. I can't imagine myself, or anyone else for that matter being so afraid that they'd permit someone to kill them and everyone else without some type of struggle.

At worst you die.. But you're going to die anyways, so what have you got to lose by fighting back?

reply to post by LLoyd45


That's what I'm saying. I'm not trying to say I'm some big hero. The truth is I don't know what I would have done in that situation because I just wasn't there to live it. But I think I would have motioned to the person next to me and said let's go. What's the worst that they're going to do? Cut me with the box cutter? And if I think that then I think at least one additional person out of hundreds would think that as well. It's just so ridiculous.

Americans have a reputation as cowboys because they don't allow themselves to go down in a fight without at least swinging back. Yet evey single person on both planes was so terrified of a box cutter that they were paralyzed in their seat with fear. Please.

Afraid of the IRS? You better believe it. Afraid of a boxcutter? Not bloody likely.

[edit on 8/14/2008 by sc2099]