Why the Persecution of Illegal Aliens

I have been leery about posting this thread as I know how polarized this issue is. But here goes:

Post after post I see who I consider to be intelligent and aware human beings make negative comments about illegal aliens. I am disgusted with this very recent movement to despise so called illegals. I know our media has held a very active campaign to convince us that these are our new enemies. I thought some on this site were above such manipulation, guess not. I have heard some say that illegals are a drain on our society. I have trouble accepting this. They provide extremely cheap labor and I find it hard to believe that the money American's save in the agriculture industry alone with this labor is not enough to make up for any cost associated with illegals. Comments?

1. They are breaking the law crossing the border, hence the name illegal alien.
2. It's not fair to those immigrants who follow the rules.
3. They do not pay taxes and are a drain on resources for legal Americans.
4. They are bypassing medical checks and reintroducing diseases.
5. They are bringing their gang(MS13) mentality with them.

reply to post by ohioriver


Fair enough. But why since the media has begun to demonize this issue are we now so concerned. Illegal immigration has been an issue since early in our Countries history. The Irish, the Chinese, the Italians, the Japanese, Vietnamese, etc, etc, etc. Always with the same issues you have listed. But now everyone acts like it is a new issue. Why?

Also you will have to forgive my ignorance. What is with this ms13? This is another piece of rhetoric that has been popping up lately. I don't watch much T.V. or follow the main stream media.

I believe in living in a country with the rule of law. If people want to immigrate into America, they should go through due process. If they just simply show up here, without going through the correct process, that is indeed illegal and makes them criminals. I don't think it is "persecution" to point this out.

There is nothing in the US constitution that says we have to let everyone into our country who wants to come.

I don't get that(MS13) from the MSM. Gangs our starting to come to smaller cities now. I see their graffiti everywhere and have even lost friends to that gang. I have first hand experience with the illegal aliens coming to our country. We had them for neighbors till they became so bad we had to move. It's no fun being shot at and the police will not even help. I feel that if we catch an illegal immigrant there should be no second chance. Jail. Deportation. Period.

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by ohioriver

 

Fair enough. But why since the media has begun to demonize this issue are we now so concerned. Illegal immigration has been an issue since early in our Countries history. The Irish, the Chinese, the Italians, the Japanese, Vietnamese, etc, etc, etc. Always with the same issues you have listed. But now everyone acts like it is a new issue. Why?

Also you will have to forgive my ignorance. What is with this ms13? This is another piece of rhetoric that has been popping up lately. I don't watch much T.V. or follow the main stream media.

There is a distinction between legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. Most immigrants that you mentioned particularly of European origins have arrived on these shores by the legal method. For the past 30 to 35 years we have immigrants that have come here, have done so illegally.

So, either we have one rule for everyone. Or we don't bother having rules in the first place.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by Gateway]

Let's reverse this train of thought. What would happen if Americans suddenly decided to invade Canada's or Mexico's borders in the same large numbers as say illegal immigrants from Mexico. How long do you think it would be before they locked down their borders?

reply to post by harvib


Harvib,

From my experience discussing the matter with people who have a problem with Mexicans illegally migrating into the USA, I suspect that the issue is really a matter of racism, unfortunately.

Originally posted by Fuggle
reply to post by harvib

 

Harvib,

From my experience discussing the matter with people who have a problem with Mexicans illegally migrating into the USA, I suspect that the issue is really a matter of racism, unfortunately.

So it could not possibly have to do with arriving here illegally?

reply to post by Fuggle


Not true. I like most other cultures and find the people fascinating. I have learned some of their languages. My favorite but hardest is Cambodian. It has nothing to do with racism, more like protectionism. My family has been in this country for over 250 years. I don't feel the need to work and pay my taxes just to have it benefit an illegal, who doesn't even spend the money here and send it to their home country.

Originally posted by ohioriver
Let's reverse this train of thought. What would happen if Americans suddenly decided to invade Canada's or Mexico's borders in the same large numbers as say illegal immigrants from Mexico. How long do you think it would be before they locked down their borders?

There's no need even to pick a hypothetical example. Just look at what is going on with Mexico's SOUTHERN border, with Guatemala. A lot of Guatemalans want to come into Mexico because its richer and offers better job opportunities. Guess how many the Mexicans let in? Very few. Most are deported or even shot, and they are certainly not given a chance receive free healthcare or citizenship. Where is the moaning about "racism" and "persecution" here?

[edit on 10-8-2008 by silent thunder]

There are many illegals trying to better themselves and live a better life and i dont have a problem with that because that is the goal of almost everyone but as soon as they commit a crime they should get deported because if they came here to live a better life than the one they were living back in theire home land then why are they here commiting crimes. Anothere thing is that because they are not alowed in the country legally does not mean that they can force themself into the country. The problem that i see here is that the person that came here illegaly is taking up the space of someone that can come into the country legally. There are alot of people that are not allowed to enter the country legally because of the situation with the illegal immigrants in the U.S..

I'll assume, probably rightly so, this largly assumes Mexican immigrants coming into the United States illegally. I also have a few things to say about this subject. It's not really about you specifically even if I use that pronoun. I'm also very much "whitey" as it were but since my life isn't divided along racial lines, there are few things that are in the light for me that will not be for those that only know "their own kind".

Originally posted by ohioriver
1. They are breaking the law crossing the border, hence the name illegal alien.

Well, they're breaking the law by crossing the border illegally. I guess I'm being pedantic.

Originally posted by ohioriver
2. It's not fair to those immigrants who follow the rules.

You're right. And it's not only the legal immigrants that get unfair treament. It's also native born citizens persecuted in various ways on a day-to-day basis because people assume that if someone appears a certain way they must be an illegal immigrant.

My girlfriend is Puerto Rican and has received alot of maltreatment at the hands of so-called "patriots" (which of course are invariably white people) including an incident that got physical-- but was minor, thankfully. She was denied Social Security disability benefits she's entitled to because of Stage I ovarian cancer (more details in the next question). At the same time I'm seeing white kids with new Mustangs and Medicaid cards and some whites getting approval for the same disability program during that same period that had far less serious issues. A dentist she went to for years suddenly refused to take her money. Cashiers threw change on the floor at stores. People refused to serve her at restaurants. Snide remarks were made that she has a Bank of America card with her name but it is MY account. I don't event want to list it all. They were very blunt and so there's no doubt why they did what they did. One was even informed of her origin and said, "I don't care. Go back to where you came."

To that I say hey, go back to where YOU came buddy. Her father served in Vietnam. Her grandfather ranked high in the army and missed out on being a General only because of an illness that struck him at the wrong time. He was the first choice. Show some respect!

Another man of Hispanic descent that works with a friend broke down at work crying because of the treatment he had been receiving by people. He was nice to him and now he's a somewhat of a pariah at work.

Can you even tell a Puerto Rican from a Mexican? Do you assume someone doing roofing that looks "hispanic" is a Mexican. Chances are they're not and unless you know the manner and difference in how they speak, you won't know unless they tell you.

Be forwarned that the ones that make it despite the hardship will be a much stronger group than the ones receiving a large degree of protection and coddling by the state. They're reproducing and surviving serious diseases (the state hasn't managed to off my girlfriend yet either) while the self-entitled white supremacists are dying off and can hardly survive a sunburn.

Originally posted by ohioriver
3. They do not pay taxes and are a drain on resources for legal Americans.

Actually they do work that you probably won't be lining up to perform yourself once you make them leave. They only took the jobs you don't want anyway. Plan on paying more for your food (wait, never mind, it's all oil prices :lol. Plan on paying higher taxes once even the legal ones leave because of persecutory spillover since the loss in revenue will need to be compensated. Actually, they'll be the first to go elsewhere.

Even if they're illegal they still buy things and contribute to the flow of money and pay any sales taxes on items purchased.

If you have some notion they get all sort of government services, quit listening to Lou Dobbs (he ain't who he claims to be anyway). With the persecutory attitude so prevalent, especially in states that have the least problem with illegals (a sociological fact), even a naturalized citizen or a native one can be denied benefits for simply having the wrong-sounding name. It's so bad in my state, my girlfriend got ahold of the main office after getting ignored and treated rudely by SocSec office and was told over the phone that "illegal" was written by someone evaluating the case on the forms she submitted. She has all the right IDs and information of course. She simply needed the help until getting through school which she is intelligent enough to do in about 1/3 the time usually expected in a career program inaccessible to most people.

Originally posted by ohioriver
4. They are bypassing medical checks and reintroducing diseases.

I'll concede this is likely true but the chances are diminished as the standard of living increases in their "native" land. If things keep going the direction they are, Mexico will need a wall on its northern border and will likely make the same complaints.

Originally posted by ohioriver
5. They are bringing their gang(MS13) mentality with them.

You think most of them have a gang mentality? Even a significant portion of them? That's plain ignorant. Most just want to paint your house or cut your lawn. What will happen after you drive the good people out, the MS13 sorts will be the ones that remain or move in to fill the new void since they really don't care what you think of them; they probably thrive off that actually. Like attracts like so plan on more negativity.

Edit: To add that things weren't like I described them for her until this immigration issue got so heated.

[edit on 8/10/2008 by EnlightenUp]

reply to post by harvib


I agree with you. One man's manifest destiny is another man's invasion. It is called hipocrisy, and we have been doing this as a nation for some time.

Here is where I disagree with many of the points made.

First we have a system that makes it very easy for someone to immigrate in search of a better life or in some cases a life at all. We then make it very difficult for a person to become a citizen. Don't you think these people that some of you are calling criminals would like a legitimate status and the legitimacy that would entitle them to at least earn minimum wage?

Second we all benefit from their undocumented labor. To those that make the point that they come to just live off the system, from what I have seen this is rhetoric and is not based on fact. I do not see these individuals especially the first generation immigrants looking to live off the system but only off there own hard work. They are looking to feed their family and live life, just as we all are.

Thirdly if illegal immigration is such a concern then why are we not making efforts to close the boarder? Why? Because our ag business would be decimated without undocumented labor. Food prices would skyrocket.

Is it not more likely that we have a system in place to allow undocumented workers to allow cheap labor without having to remove the systems in place that allow the rest of us to at least earn minimum wage. Could not this recent rhetoric be an effort to once again create an invisible enemy?

Originally posted by harvib


Is it not more likely that we have a system in place to allow undocumented workers to allow cheap labor without having to remove the systems in place that allow the rest of us to at least earn minimum wage. Could not this recent rhetoric be an effort to once again create an invisible enemy?

I think you are correct that we have "a system in place" to allow this as you have said. However, I don't think its an attempt to create an "invisible enemy." I think corporate America wants lower labor costs and bigger markets with more people. Very simple, straight-up economics. Not much (if any) racism or "need for an enemy" is involved, in my opinion.

Just because it benefits corporate America doesn't mean it benefits everyone already in America, though.

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
reply to post by harvib

 

I agree with you. One man's manifest destiny is another man's invasion. It is called hipocrisy, and we have been doing this as a nation for some time.

Hmmm...well, the way I see it, they are free to try to get here and the people here are free to try and stop them. Human movement is very ancient, has taken place across the globe throughout history...but it doesn't usually benefit everyone. There are almost always winners and losers.

I don't think the US is particularly any more hypocritical than anyone else in this regard...in fact, less hypocritcal than many. Most nations don't let many people into their borders at all, compared with the US. The US lets in lots of Mexicans, but Mexico lets in very few Guatemalans who want to come there to work. Who is more "hypocritical," then?

People often point to the US European destruction of native Americans, and it is true this is a sad thing...but remember that those tribes were not a monolithic whole either. The various Native tribes often fought with each other and moved into each other's territories long before the Europeans showed up. The Cree and the Blackfoot and the Sioux all hated each other and invaded each other's turf, to pick one example. Moreover, the Europeans of course did the same thing in Europe. We are talking about a seemingly universal human tendency here...I think it is wrong to single out Americans of European descent as being particularly blameworthy in this regard.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by silent thunder]

reply to post by silent thunder

Just because it benefits corporate America doesn't mean it benefits everyone already in America, though.

I agree with your statement however it is my belief that in this case with out this type of labor food prices would triple.

I think you are correct that we have "a system in place" to allow this as you have said.

I am glad you agree with this. I wonder if others also agree if they do I wonder why we demonize the actual immigrants and not the politicians that are responsible?

Originally posted by harvib
Why the Persecution of Illegal Aliens

1. They came here illegally and broke the law.
2. They came here illegally and broke the law.
3. They came here illegally and broke the law.
4. They came here illegally and broke the law.
5. They came here illegally and broke the law.

Top five reasons why they are being persecuted. We kind of persecute outlaws here in the United States.

reply to post by Johnmike


How do you honor, uphold, and sustain the law if you don't know what it is? You presume everyone knows and understands law, which is why our nation is such a big mess.