Hydrogen cells increase gas millage

Originally posted by UFOTECH

These boosters work by adding hydrogen to the cylinder which has a faster ignition speed than gas or diesel which with the added oxygen increases the flame spread and provides a more complete combustion of the hydrocarbon fuel.

This allows the engine's fuel air mix to be adjusted much leaner without losing power. This is what improves the economy of the engine the boosters are used on.

When you add oxygen to the system, all this does happen. The problem is that when you do this, you increase the combustion temperature. Engines are designed to use excess air in order to keep the temperature down low enough that the inside of the engine is not damaged.

Originally posted by ScienceDada

So, the claim is cold fusion in a can. Great. Sounds like a Nobel prize is going to these guys then. I will believe it when I see it

And the best thing they can come up with to use it for is a mileage booster in a car?

reply to post by ScienceDada


They have recorded the presence of helium 4 in the output gas from the device. Since the device is sealed and the gas output runs directly from the cylinder to the measuring device it is not coming from the ambient air. The cells run at an efficiency of productivity far in excess of what Faraday's laws of electrolysis predicts if you do not factor in the energy from these low energy nuclear reactions.

Though the level of nuclear reactions is not high enough to put to work directly for making power for direct extraction there is enough to effect the production of the gas in the cell so this is an efficient use of LENR in an electrolysis device.

reply to post by MBF


when you just increase the oxygen you do get an increase in temperature. When you add a balanced level of hydrogen you get water vapor production which carries away the heat from the combustion chamber very efficiently.

Originally posted by UFOTECH
reply to post by ScienceDada

 

They have recorded the presence of helium 4 in the output gas from the device.

He4 is also produced from alpha decay. So what.

Call it what it is... cold fusion. And this has been debunked, and has not revolutionized anything in the last 20 years, but only produced hype and shame.

If it produces enough energy to liberate hydrogen, then it will be used for large scale hydrogen production and we have a new fuel economy. Especially with $4.00/gal gasoline! So whare's the beef? So why piddle with it on some website through a two-bit penny stock company? Why not go and build a hydrogen economy then? What are they waiting for... they have been around for what... 6 years?

Or perhaps they are a company with one snake oil product and you are trying to find some suckers to boost the stock price? It is a joke

reply to post by ScienceDada


Not sure what your criteria is for debunked based on the wiki article you reference. I can see that many are skeptical and that the results are contested but clearly there are too many analytical anomalies in the experimental data for conclusions like your stating that it is debunked.

That kind of off the cuff dismissal I suspect is generated from a go along to get along point of view. It is always easier to follow the herd than to set off on your own direction with a few pioneers.

I think they have a product and are clearly trying to sell it obviously. As far as the product release boosting their stock price. I see no evidence of that as yet



Looks like they are not trading at all if you look at that chart you linked in. They are in production of a product and have partner companies that are testing it from what I gather from the site. I guess we will see what the testing reveals.

[edit on 8/14/2008 by UFOTECH]

Here is a 30 min. interview with a fellow that tried to get into the hydrogen booster market. He tells his story on commercialization of the technology.

www.blogtalkradio.com...

This is a good caveat for those trying to get into this field.

I did some looking around and there seems to be over a 100 companies making these HHO booster units. Some are more than 3 grand like this one for trucks. www.atomicmall.com...

Some of these companies have been around for a while so I think if it was all a scam they would have gone out of business years ago don't you think.

www.hydrogenboostnow.com...

From the sites I read through these guys seem to have more products than the previous one I linked into the thread. There are so many though I seriously think this technology must have some basis in fact and be doing some good or they would not exist in these numbers. That Aqua-Nova product is a late comer to the party for sure.

[edit on 8/14/2008 by UFOTECH]

reply to post by UFOTECH


Sorry in advance for repeating myself but I can't figure something out.

Detroit is in trouble (again) because people are unwilling (again) to buy vehicles which burn too much fuel. Why wouldn't the computer systems already be "optimized"? Why would they intentionally be reducing mileage?

If these simple hydrogen boosters are truly capable of producing the dramatic increases in mileage that they claim, why aren't the auto manufacturers making them standard equipment? If, by installing these devices, mileage can be substantially increased, why are they not doing it?

I can understand the oil companies not liking it. I might even go along with collusion between oil and auto if there were some benefit to the manufacturers but what could that be? What would the auto manufacturers stand to gain by having their product sitting in inventory rather than being sold? It doesn't make sense to me for the auto manufacturers to be losing so much money on the vehicles that are no longer selling when they could cheaply fix the primary factor cutting into their sales.



[edit on 14-8-2008 by Phage]

reply to post by Phage


I have wondered this for years. Why is it when I was a teenager in the 70's that the cars then got as high as 50MPH on the highway but now that is hardly even achieved. They went backwards in fuel economy. It makes no sense if everyone knows that it is possible to get better fuel economy why do they not sell cars that get better mileage.

I think there must be some collusion but if that is true than the GM shareholders should have grounds for a law suit.

Hello,

I'm going to address this thread because I have personal experience.

First I'd like to direct you to this article I wrote on our sister site Tinwiki...

Brown's Gas

Second, I'd like to comment on the misconception of HHO and it's application to automotive in particular. It is certainly possible, with moderate time investment, to subsidize your gasoline easily by 60% not 40% or less or not at all.

Critics and skeptics claim that the "energy required or the energy put in is less than the energy received or put out". Although I vehemently deny this, let's say for a moment that this is true. It still does not explain why it is not possible to use power derived from the car battery, to generate HHO and have that increase gas mileage. If that power is minimal, say the amount of power other fuses in the car draw, then there is no problem. Think of it this way, you are using power from the battery to increase gas mileage. Almost sounds electric car like doesn't it? But I assure you, this is something very different from our electric car friend.

Now as I said, I vehemently deny the "energy required or the energy put in is less than the energy received or put out". If you read the Tinwiki article you should understand why. The major discovery of conventional electrolysis versus the Brown's Gas electrolytic cell is voltage manipulation. When a specific oscillating frequency is applied to the current, HHO gas production increases exponentially. This allows a very small amount of power to be used in order to create massive amounts of HHO. This, almost equally important, eliminates the negative by-product; heat.

Do not consult information warehouses such as Wikipedia for truthful HHO information. As you might imagine, this is a tightly kept secret with specific interests invested in it's suppression. With that said, youtube literally has a network of thousands of practical users who are more than willing to show and explain how it works and how it can be used from their experience. I've obtained 80% of my practical knowledge of HHO from youtube.

Please spend a significant amount of time researching HHO on youtube (yes youtube). Listen to people, click their youtube friends and learn more.

This is our right. It's been held from us for too long. The Internet is the only way we can educate each other about this. In my opinion it's one of the most important issues on the planet. Cars are just the precipice.

-SB

Originally posted by StrangeBrew

Do not consult information warehouses such as Wikipedia for truthful HHO information. As you might imagine, this is a tightly kept secret with specific interests invested in it's suppression. With that said, youtube literally has a network of thousands of practical users who are more than willing to show and explain how it works and how it can be used from their experience. I've obtained 80% of my practical knowledge of HHO from youtube.

So....

We are only supposed to use sources that say "it really, really works and you should buy my system" and ignore sources that say it cannot. What a good idea.

Don't you see the contradiction you just created?
1) "this is a tightly kept secret"
2) "youtube literally has a network of thousands of practical users who are more than willing to show and explain how it works and how it can be used"


What makes you think I haven't looked at both? I honestly don't know if it works or not but you can't deny there is a lot of snake oil out there.

Can you answer my previous question about how the auto manufacturers could benefit from suppressing such a seemingly salable technology?

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Phage]

Originally posted by Phage

So....

We are only supposed to use sources that say "it really, really works and you should buy my system" and ignore sources that say it cannot. What a good idea.

Don't you see the contradiction you just created?
1) "this is a tightly kept secret"
2) "youtube literally has a network of thousands of practical users who are more than willing to show and explain how it works and how it can be used"


What makes you think I haven't looked at both? I honestly don't know if it works or not but you can't deny there is a lot of snake oil out there.

Can you answer my previous question about how the auto manufacturers could benefit from suppressing such a seemingly salable technology?

[edit on 14-8-2008 by Phage]

Contradiction? Isn't it more of a conundrum? (an intricate and difficult problem) And an irritating one at that.

This is the problem. It isn't widely perpetuated information at all. Aside from a few books and some noble youtubers, the stage is non-existent.

I wouldn't suggest using any sources that say "buy my system". As you said, there is snake oil out there. Look for the sources that want no money and only want to share and exchange information.

As for your previous auto manufacturers question, yes I can answer it but this is not the place. All I will say is that the auto industry is piss in the pool compared to Big Oil. So if you believe the auto manufacturers have free creative control; I can't help you with that here.

We must concentrate on the important, highly unknown usage of resonance with the current. This is the key to ultra efficient HHO production. Ultimately it isn't about cars, although sometimes I wish it was, it is about energy.

-SB

Originally posted by StrangeBrew

Originally posted by Phage
We must concentrate on the important, highly unknown usage of resonance with the current. This is the key to ultra efficient HHO production. Ultimately it isn't about cars, although sometimes I wish it was, it is about energy.

Then publish it and get a Nobel prize in physics or the Nobel peace prize... take your pick. You have solved the energy crisis and the problem of fresh water... this will usher in world peace, because now you can produce clean energy and in the process, create a source of clean drinking water, since fuel cells can reverse the process.

You've got it made! Will I see you as Time's Man of the Year?

reply to post by ScienceDada


Actually you make some good points. Take a coal-fire power plant burning coal to spin turbines to generate power for the grid. Now take Brown's Gas Plant Engineering technology, (currently producing up to 500,000 litres per hour of HHO or Brown's Gas) and incorporate that into spinning turbines. Then envision a solar farm producing the manageable energy requirements for plant operation. To the end user, nothing has changed.

The energy put in is used to unlock the enormous energy held within water; namely hydrogen. Brown's Gas cell technology uses frequency pulse or resonance modulation to manipulate the input energy. This dramatically increases conventional electrolysis efficiency. Many methods of manipulation can be done to the standard electrolysis process including cell design and electrolyte content but resonance, by far, is the most important overall factor.

I love your fresh water example as well. The same technology could be used to power water pumps and the desalination process to irrigate deserts and provide clean drinking water. Now your thinking!

But alas my good ScienceDada, where's the money in that? How are we going to get rich and powerful? Energy is money. Big Oil has a lot of energy and therefore a lot of money. What's the problem?

I'm not ushering in anything. No one person or well intentioned group is going to pull this one off. I think the only way anything is going to happen is if people learn from each other and spread the information (not disinformation) so that it is common place. People need to stop taking other people's word for it and learn about the world they live in for themselves. Help each other because anyone true interested in this isn't interested in profit.


P.S. Thanks for the pandering

Originally posted by StrangeBrew
reply to post by ScienceDada

 

But alas my good ScienceDada, where's the money in that? How are we going to get rich and powerful? Energy is money. Big Oil has a lot of energy and therefore a lot of money.

There is some money to be made in "green" hype, but it is mostly a power issue. That is why frauds like Al Gore can rally the population to support junk science... people tend to fall prey to Confirmation bias and generally lack skills necessary to critically analyze phenomena such as splitting of water.

The water molecule has an enormous amount of negative potential energy. So, you can't get energy out of the oxygen-hydrogen bonds but rather you have to put that energy into the bonds to liberate the hydrogen, which is 493.4 kJ/mol. What you are suggesting is a violation of the laws of thermodynamics, and thus would literally "change the laws of physics" resulting in a similar scientific revolution to Dalton's atomic theory or Einstein's relativity theory, because a catalyst only overcomes an activation barrier and cannot violate the laws of thermodynamics; we already have a catalyst for water electrolysis (it is called platinum and it is well characterized).

The pseudoscience of so-called "low energy nuclear reactions" is great and all, but since 80% of naturally occurring boron is B11, then that shouldn't be too hard to come by, eh? So, you are really suggesting that in 150 years, that some dude has only now discovered that borated electrodes or using boric acid in the electrolyte solution suddenly allows for world peace... if only it weren't for those pesky oil companies (and presumably the Bush administration). Also, as improbable as these reactions are, the boron on this planet has been present in the presence of water for an awful long time, so why has it not all naturally reacted?

Well, newsflash: there have always been the rich and powerful, yet scientific revolutions and discoveries still happen. Because the scientific community allows for discoveries regardless of politics.

reply to post by ScienceDada


Thanks for your scientific rendition of how "all good things come to light" and how society unequivocally reaps the benefits. It's very important for me to understand your view of this mechanism. Diluted as much as it may be.

Pesky oil companies. LOL, you obviously don't have a clue.

Also thanks for writing about the widely perpetrated falsehoods about energy contained in water. All certainly false I might add. Resonance included in the electrolysis process, among other things, eliminates your negative potential energy; heat. No thermodynamics laws are violated, simply the amount of energy required is minimal, making heat by-product completely manageable and a non-issue. The firm figure of 493.4 kJ/mol is ridiculous. The amount of energy required varies widely depending on the method employed. This much at least I've tested for myself. So - varies widely, I'll say again, is an understatement.

I'm not going to comment on your "some dude just recently discovered borated electrodes or using boric acid" or you other boron and B11 points. That's off topic of this method, is of no interest to me and only serves to complicate and downplay water's potential.

Your cute comments and newsflashes about world peace and scientific discoveries are nice. If only those that orchestrate the running of the world were really interested in world peace instead of money, power and ultimately control - we'd be alright. It almost seems like you have no idea about Big Oil, their conglomerates and their influences.

"Pesky oil companies" Priceless!

Originally posted by StrangeBrew
reply to post by ScienceDada

 

Thanks for your scientific rendition of how "all good things come to light" and how society unequivocally reaps the benefits.

Don't patronize me. I am a physicist by training, and I am only trying to help others on this forum from falling prey to whimsical ideas and fancies. I have nothing to prove to you.

Pesky oil companies. LOL, you obviously don't have a clue.

Physics does not depend on oil companies. In that sense, your notions are utterly ridiculous and are an indication of either (a) extreme naivety, (b) mental illness, or (c) fraud and maliciousness.

Also thanks for writing about the widely perpetrated falsehoods about energy contained in water. All certainly false I might add.

What you are claiming is silly. Hydrogen as a fuel contains a base energy level, as does oxygen. When combustion occurs, this energy is released; the result is that the resulting water byproducts have a relative "negative" energy level. The process is reversible, but you can only get out as much energy as you put in. Period. Otherwise you violate the laws of physics (conservation of energy and conservation of energy). You may claim to have a 99.999% efficient process (thus eliminating waste heat), but that is irrelevant. Then energy comes from somewhere. Otherwise, you are essentially claiming to have a perpetual motion device.

If you want to point to low energy nuclear reactions for your new energy source, then it will almost certainly win a Nobel prize.

But this would be even more amazing: give it away for free. That way, the whole economics of oil and geopolitics of power and energy will just disappear. There are enough people who would implement the ideas if they worked... just like Benjamin Franklin and the wood stove.

Or, perhaps you are just claiming to have on your hands what is a really efficient mechanism for a battery. Great... we could all use efficient batteries. And new battery mechanisms are invented, marketed, and produced all the time. I still don't see how this would be stopped by a "big oil" conspiracy.

reply to post by ScienceDada


I'll patronize you all I want. Your ignorance deserves it. "Trying to help others on this forum from falling prey to whimsical ideas and fancies..." Well thanks for that but you couldn't be doing more to hurt the process of information sharing regarding this.

I'm trying to educate those on this forum that are interested in the truth about information suppression. Not only with HHO but with mainstream science, mainstream medicine and other mainstream lies. When you learn about the manipulation by the few over the many via conditioning and suppression of information on a variety of important subjects throughout history, things make a lot more sense. Not in regards to science but human behaviour in general. Your a prime example of this; fighting tooth and nail so that things fit into your world view. I have news for you, you're world view is lacking. All of ours is.

So just to reiterate, your knowledge about the energy ALREADY contained in water and the use of it is wrong and ill conceived. You're a physicist are you? I'm not, yet I have used and tested many, many methods of current manipulation via resonance. Why haven't you commented on resonance? I've only mentioned it as being the single most important thing several times in each post. Try it for yourself ScienceDada, surely someone with your expertise could test it in no time. As I've mentioned earlier, so much help is available to those that want to try but know little. No money is exchanged no profits are reaped. But you are trying to protect people from trying right? What a humanitarian you are, thanks for that.

"I still don't see how this would be stopped by a "big oil" conspiracy"

I know you don't, that's obvious. Maybe it's because you are unaware that oil companies aren't in competition with each other but are a collective monopoly over the energy industry. Maybe it's because you're unaware of multinational operations such as General Electric (one of the most evil companies of all time in my opinion) and their technology suppression since the early 1900's. Maybe it's because you don't realize Big Oil, Big Tech, Big Pharma and Big Chema's decisions are all made by the same few people and are hardly ever in the interest of society yet they govern all of us. I really have no idea where you lie. But for all intentioned purposes, lie you do, as unintentional or well intentioned it is.

Originally posted by StrangeBrew
reply to post by ScienceDada

 

You're a physicist are you? I'm not, yet I have used and tested many, many methods of current manipulation via resonance. Why haven't you commented on resonance?

We all use resonance every day to manipulate water---in our microwaves.

I haven't commented on it because it is junk science that most on this forum would not understand anyway. But they do understand basic concepts like batteries and perpetual motion machines. Fancy language about why resonance still doesn't violate conservation of energy might be out of their grasp.

Those who can grasp it---such as experimental scientists and engineers---likely blow you off immediately.