Montana Governor Refuses Real ID, DHS Threatens Citizens

Every State government I hope will see that this ID card is unnecessary. This is moving way to fast to control the people.

If something happens to delay or stop the election and get Bush out of office then it will be time to speak out.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

“Absolute power is when a man is starving and you are the only one able to give him food.” Zimbabwe’s Marxist dictator, Robert Mugabe

In looking over your site I did not come across a good analysis of the National Animal Identification System (NAIS) and its spin-offs(FDA on crops), due to become law January 2009. Since Ag Sec, Ed Schafer gave away the US stockpile of food this is a critical issue. (see “the cupboard is bare”)

It is a complex situation, and it is happening worldwide:
“...Farmers...suddenly find themselves heavily controlled by EU and national officialdom brandishing that most vicious of anti-entrepreneurial weapons: ‘sanitary and hygiene regulations’ - as enforced by national governments at the behest of the Common Agricultural Policy of the European Union. These are the hidden weapons of mass destruction of farmers and the main tool for achieving the aim of ridding the countryside of small- and medium-sized family farms and replacing them with monocultural money-making agribusiness...” Source: www.i-sis.org.uk...

In 1995 the World Trade Organization (WTO) was formed and According to WTO: "Measures to trace animals...to provide assurances on...safety ..have been incorporated into international standards... The Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures...Aims to ensure that governments do not use quarantine and food safety requirements as Unjustified trade barriers... It provides Member countries with a right to implement traceability [NAIS] as an SPS measure." (1995). It also opened borders to trade and allowed Monsanto into INDIA – (Checkout India farmer suicides since 1997)

OIE came up with international “disease free” standards. In FMD for example “stamping out” (killing all animals in 10 K area) returns the country to “disease free” in 3 months, Vaccination requires 24 months. The true horror of this policy is seen in History of UK 2001 foot & mouth disease: www.warmwell.com/footmoutheye.html Source: www.fao.org...
LANNED ERADICATION PROCEDURE: www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/Y0660E/Y0660E00.HTM

In discussing the requirements for a nation to obtain “disease free status”, FAO of the UN says “...A minor episode towards the end of the qualifying period could constitute a serious setback with enormous financial losses for the affected industry. The fear of such severe consequences may affect the willingness of individuals or official bodies to report what they consider a minor incident.....” [the new USDA policy is “If we do not test for disease we will not find it.”] Source: www.fao.org...

Government testing for bovine tuberculosis in California went from 10,576 tests in 1995 to 1,425 in 1999. USDA border checks were turned over to Chihuahuan Cattle Producers' Association despite the high prevalence of bovine tuberculosis in Mexican cattle. Dr. Logan... said, “the disease is extremely rare in U.S. herds. How- ever, more TB-lesioned cattle are being detected at slaughter, and ear tags indicate that many of these animals are of Mexican origin.” Prior to 1994, only eight wild white-tailed or mule deer had been reported with bovine TB in North America To date, 397 deer and two elk were confirmed with disease in a five county area...”
Source: www.lookercomm.com...
Source: cetulare.ucdavis.edu/newsletterfiles/Beef_Round_Up3482.pdf
Source:www.ers.usda.gov/publications/Agoutlook/june2001/AO282d.pdf

In Texas:
“...USDA is moving toward supporting fewer labs nationwide, with the remaining labs serving as regional labs and supporting larger geographic areas.....Texas Animal Health Commission: www.tahc.state.tx.us/agency/TAHC_Strategic_Plan_2009-2013.pdf

While only 20,000 co

I just wanted to clarify, it is not a law that you are required to carry ID at all time, and neither is this law in the REAL id legislation. Primarily it dictates that you may not enter or utilize any FEDERAL facility or facility regulated/supervised by the FEDS without an identification that meets the REAL Id criteria. So if Montana does not accept and meet the REAL ID criteria, the State id will not be valid in any Federal Courthouse, Airport, or other buildings requiring it.

Also I have a question, if an officer is infringing on my liberties as a citizen and claims he has the authority to, do I have the right to call the nearest FBI jurisdiction to immediately approach the situation? This is in reference to your past situation peepers.

Just out of interest?:

As a Christian, to what levels would you go to, to not recieve such a chip?

As a non- Christian, the same?

Does such a chip not say "you are owned?" You no longer will ever be indipendent of control?

Is that a life?

The real problem with the RealID system is that it is geared toward Governmental and Departmental control of the people. If all 50 States would pass legislation that was properly sympathetic to every other State then it could be argued that a new set of State Laws superceded and overrode the Federal Laws. These laws would have to provide proper protections for the bearer of the identification, limitations on the power of Law Enforcement over the handling, execution and monitoring the ID, and a secure, real system for validating the identification of the person carrying the ID.

Then, in order to properly reflect that every person of legal adult age in the country now has this protected, verifiable and forgery proof form of identification, the Federal Government would have to provide to the entire voting public a secure, express voting system that would allow the people to verifiably override the Congress and the Executive Branch on all legislative issuse before the government. The Congress and the Representative system was designed to allow the government to make and pass laws apart from the people because they did not have the technology that we have today. If the people were to vote on many issues they normally do not see, we very likely would not be in the pickle we are today.

Take their systems from them and make them your own.

There is no current legislation requiring a mandatory microchip implant for American citizens, or citizens anywhere in the world. Niether is there any pending or proposed legislation.

The REAL ID only applies to institutions involved with the FEDERAL government. I can still go to the movies and have a job without submitting to a REAL ID criteria. I can own a car, home, or business.

Not saying the REAL ID is good or acceptable. I am just stating that it is not the biblical "mark" implied.

I am not Christian, but No I would not get a mandatory chip implant. I may get a voluntary implant if it means I can use all of my membership cards more easily. I rent movies, go to zoos theme parks and aquariums and I have to pull a different card everytime. If they could all be consolodated in one chip, I may take it voluntarily for convinience. If the law the next day says I must keep it in by the command of the Federal government, I will take a knife and cut it out.

That simple really. The chips do not go deep into yuor body, just right under the second layer of skin if I am not mistaken.

Originally posted by anglodemonicmatrix
The problems about to arise are not via planning,rather the lack of it.

Actually, I'd have to disagree with that particular statement. They've got it well-planned alright, but they're planning on taking the wrong path. By governing entirely around self-interest, they're violating the Laws of Nature as Set Forth by the Creator & causing untold havoc among humanity in the process.

As anyone who knows much of anything about the Laws of Nature would guess, that's a biiiig "no-no." Nature will re-balance humanity on it's own if/when we get out of line, but these Ruling Elite think they can get the jump on Mother Nature & re-structure humanity while getting filthy rich & wielding great power of illusionary command by doing so.

I explain more about this line of reasoning over in The Psychology Behind Mass Subservience to Tyranny, to show just how badly they've been trying to fool Mother Nature. Also how the Laws of Nature & the Nature of Awakened Man will wind up coming down hard on them for their adherence to committing the same mistakes of history yet again. Hell, it's only the same mistakes that far too many Ruling Elite have been making down throughout the history of human civilization, so they're going to wind up suffering the same results.
My only regret is that I may not live long enough to see it happen...

Originally posted by Cyberbian
If the answer is the former than we live in a state of servitude, and once we get that fact straight, I have no doubt that the people will simply choose to cease their service.

Well, although I haven't seen you post anything over here, I think that thread would indicate that they've already gone a long way towards becoming the Master. That thread will explain it better than anyone could in this thread. Also, over here shows how people are using the Law to protect themselves against arbitrary controls.

Good stuff SKL...You're very consistent with giving good, reliable info.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by MidnightDStroyer]

reply to post by MidnightDStroyer


Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate that a lot. I always try to do thorough research.

An example of this is here in this other thread where some of the research I put into this current thread came from :

Covert Action Quarterly : Taking On The C.I.A. Head On

I'm usually dead-on with the intelligence information I post on here on ATS.

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop

Then, in order to properly reflect that every person of legal adult age in the country now has this protected, verifiable and forgery proof form of identification,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

let me add to that easily renewable.

why can't these people invent more creative excuses already?

I find it interesting that in Revelations and in descriptions of the 'End Times', just such an aparatus is fortold as being implemented. If this is the instrument described, then I find it intriguing that its implementation starts with Federal access and, in the future I'm sure it will be forced to be the only access ID viable for the rest of the country. Organised religion is not my creed, but I do wonder about just how accurate these passages are. Only time will tell of course but I still find it very, very intriguing !

Zindo

Ultimately, I believe the crux of the issue with the Real ID act is simpler than most make it.

The United States of America is comprised of a cooperative union of 50 distinct and sovereign states. The Federal government should not be empowered to enforce a law that the union has not accepted.

Insofar as congress being in agreement with this law, I suggest you carefully review the history of the introduction of the bill and its passage. By the way, congress also is 'in agreement' with the 'War on Terrorism' the War in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, (and potentially, the war in Georgia.)

Congressional approval means nothing in respect to the will of the people of the United States. That much has been reaffirmed with increasing frequency in our lifetime.

To attribute the will of the people to the operations of the federal government is fallacious. Our country belongs to the politico's and their false two-party facade; which is to say it is controlled by transnational corporate influences, all of which begin at the Fed. (The Fed by the way is another construct the congress and senate are in agreement about. - go figure.)

Real ID superimposes a federal authority over the state's. You pay taxes for federal services to be rendered to your state on behalf of the Union itself. They are saying now that you must accept this or they will 'complicate' your life. Why is the servant of the United States of America empowered to deny you equal service and support? What 'crime' is committed by not wanting to be inserted into their citizen watch machine?

As for the micro chip. Tell me, would you know that it is or isn't there? Do you see the tracking devices on $100 reserve notes? Can you tell that you passport has one? Do you really trust the Federal Government, hell bent on becoming the RULER of the United States as opposed to it's servant, to conduct itself honorably? We already know that they are not controlled by the citizens anymore. Who exactly are you trusting with your freedoms? Some corporation? Some ideologically based cabal of business associates? The next Hitler? How would you know? Their media?

Not having Real ID is not a threat to our security. It's a threat to Federal control of, and ability to deal with, the citizens of this country - but then, being a citizen in this country seems to mean less everyday, as we migrate away from our national framework, and closer to a centralized control paradigm, turning each state into little more than a regional designation. Which, by the way, you can see happening all the time in the prototypical control structures being forced on our European neighbors.

I will say this much. After some time residing in Montana, I can tell you that if all States ran a "No Nonsense" government as is the case in Montana, America would take 90% of all the rediculous laws that have piled up for so long and deposit them where they belong. The round file.

After moving from there, I often think of how some States are just gluttonious with their contrived notions of laws and increased taxes for projects that, though already funded, have had monies deverted (why even establishing a State lottery voted for, that the massive proceeds were initially to be used to fund public works and road maintenance, years later, rather than accumulating larger and bearing even more through intrest, are not questioned when new taxes are promoted for the same dang things.

The way I try to reason these double dipping and in some cases, just plain retarded bills ,referrendums, or what have you, that are likely envisioned not to make anything better for citizens, but to bloat the manitu-devil spawn incubating in these high governing officials egos, is by way of this story:

A self indulged girl who, not just believes, but knows, by virtue of her superior self-awareness, that the world is not only her oyster, but that her oyster is her vision of change for the betterment of the world as well, proclaiming to herself of and by herself, that, to suit her extraordinary intelligence so that she can be worshipped by all her piers for the greatness, she has let a minute partical overflow from her brilliance to all the others who, although will never be worthy, can tell her how beautiful she looks while posing in thought just prior to the stroke of her pen establishing her self convictions as had been known to her at that moment and from the beginning of time.

Suddenly, her "the world is not enough to contain my awesomeness" mindset turns to pure, uncontaminated rage. A rage that dwarfs the sum of all galaxies, for, when she is informed, at a public gathering nonetheless, (A.K.A. Assembly), that she lost her "bid"..(no such word in her vocabulary), for Prom Queen to an inferior sub-human wretch of a subservant unpopular nappy headed ho' of a primate, and in utter disbelief and fury, her alter-personality (tripolarity; for, being diagnosed as bipolar isn't even close to the infinite praise that will never be enough for her), has already calculated, planned, perfected, visualized and meticulously rehearsed her unblemished retaliatory plot to cause the vanishing of all the blastphemous Judas' that have conpsired in such mass, that she laughs at their inability to realize that they had, hence - unwittingly just signed their death sentences, and that additional sufferage of all of their family and friends would still not bring her true justice, but would have to do.

So now, alone, using college as her stepping stone and just one of many tools, she, in isolation from her actions, commands her studies, seduces anyone that will place themselves as another rung on her ladder of human rungs. She cheats, uses everything and everyone she can to manipulate her way to her ultimate goal. The governorship of the State.

Finally, as she is sworn in, her long-overdue power is now ultimate, as she stands boldly behind her podeum, meticulously sculpted speach now emminating from her mouth, every word, nuance, timing, pause, memmorized to perfection that was so moving, that even her eyes would well up from such God-like utterances.

Then,
She pushes strange crazy unneccessary, rediculous, frivulous bills through to proudly display as "another of her great achievments created into Law!!!

Over and over and over until she could no longer contain herself.
Then, she losses her bid as incumbant to a new Governess, who, since her rejection by her peers, that voted someone else to reign as prom queen, now finally will be sworn in, so long over due....

ok.. that was an interesting read.

As for the micro chip. Tell me, would you know that it is or isn't there? Do you see the tracking devices on $100 reserve notes? Can you tell that you passport has one?

If you would like to know whether any documents or cards you own have been imbedded with microchips, all you need is a microwave. Put the suspected document/money/card in for one minute.

If it is chipped, you will see sparks fly as the chip fries. If nothing after a minute, you should be safe. Don't put it for any longer than a minute as you risk burning the paper or melting the plastic of the card.

Allegedly some videos exist of their paper money going up in flames in only a few seconds, presumptiously as a result of chipping in the currency. I dont know if I believe the videos.

reply to post by DYepes


I never thought they really chipped money. But I know they have some kind of mylar strip in them now. I figured it was to thwart counterfeiters, but some speculated that they could use a sensor somehow to count the money on your person as you traveled through international customs. I don't know if such an application is correct or not, but the point was, they needn't announce their intention to track us because with today's technology it's almost impossible to tell.

I heard about frying chips in microwaves, but would that be just as evident to some authority when they swipe your ID? I'm not sure if the legislation provides for provisions against those who would do so. Sort of like defacing money is a crime.

Well of course if you fry the chip in your id it would no longer be a valid id for an agency that uses the chip. It still works to help you buy alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. Oops dont come after me ATF. you can still use it to open a bank account, or when you request public records.

If you would like to use it in an agency that requires the chip verification, simply purchase two id's and fry one of them. You can leave the chipped one at home, or a safety deposity box as you please. When you need it for a particular reason, you simply bring it with you at the required event.

Ergo, you are complying with the Federal identification laws, but not submitting to any possibilities of being tracked wherever you go. Honestly I do not believe they intend to track everyone everywhere they go, but if you are in that boat (line of thought), the purchasing two id's is your solution.

I have made this suggestion in countless REAL Id threads in the past, I just feel I will reiterate them each time, so as anyone who wishes to know may know.

reply to post by imd12c4funn


Are we talking of Billary..or Michele here???? It kinda sounds like both to me. Very close to what some folks I talk to feel about the ex-first biotch and the maybe-next first biotch!!!

Zindo

Based on what I can find on this matter, I can see no reason for anyone to resist this measure on any grounds, except perhaps from a financial perspective at the state level.

It seems to me that most states have IDs that meet most, if not all of these criteria.

Each card must include, at a minimum, the person's full legal name, signature, date of birth, gender, driver's license or identification card number. It also includes a photograph of the person's face and the address of principal residence. It is required to have physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes. In North Carolina, these new security features include a hologram of a map of the entire North American continent.[14]

It will use common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements (the details of which are not spelled out, but left to the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the states, to regulate).

en.wikipedia.org...

States that comply with these measures may still issue non-complying IDs or drivers' licenses, but they must be clearly state that they do not comply with the law.

So, you can see that even if your state does comply with this law, a citizen may request a non-complying license.

I would imagine for those who choose not to carry such an ID or DL, the option is to carry the documents one must provide to receive the "Real ID."

West Virginia has just made accommodations to a group who, based on their religious preferences, would rather not have their digitized photos kept on a state data base. The state will keep hard copies of their photo instead.

W.Va. offers licenses for those who fear 'beast'

We should all be vigilant about our freedoms, but every new technology or security requirement is not the harbinger of tyranny and in the US we do have a pretty effective counter-measure for the "slippery-slope."

Just recently, after a century or more of various groups doing their best to redefine or otherwise render obsolete the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court has ruled, by an ever so slight margin, that the Second Amendment means exactly what it says it means and that the Founders made that clear in their personal writings so many times that any lawyer who ever claimed otherwise should be disbarred for gross stupidity and illiteracy.

So, even if there is some reason to be cautious about this new measure, it does not even come close to signaling the end of the republic and if it does reach such a point, there are always the the courts to which the American people may appeal.

reply to post by DYepes


They probably will tell you the court decides the situation even though you done nothing and they inconvenienced you. Observe how this phony homeland security lottery goes in airports. The pimply faced homeland security guy says to himself about some elderly woman, I think you look suspicious because I had a grandma who made me mad cause she refused to hand over her money so I could buy a cd. I think women bestowed with authority are even more gung ho about yankin macho males and hot chicks outa line for the business. It is obvious people cannot be trusted to enforce authority and will screw with the citizen.

People in power with authority over a citizen will abuse that power guaranteed. Courts have shown they look the other way most cases. This ID card scheme is only the tip of the iceberg. They will slide in on citizens and before you know it, you are trapped. Thats how the system functions, not today but later for sure.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Based on what I can find on this matter, I can see no reason for anyone to resist this measure on any grounds, except perhaps from a financial perspective at the state level.

Each card must include, at a minimum, the person's full legal name, signature, date of birth, gender, driver's license or identification card number. It also includes a photograph of the person's face and the address of principal residence. It is required to have physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.....

It will use common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements (the details of which are not spelled out, but left to the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Transportation and the states, to regulate). emphasis mine - MM

en.wikipedia.org...

States that comply with these measures may still issue non-complying IDs or drivers' licenses, but they must be clearly state that they do not comply with the law.

So, you can see that even if your state does comply with this law, a citizen may request a non-complying license.

I would imagine for those who choose not to carry such an ID or DL, the option is to carry the documents one must provide to receive the "Real ID."

...

So, even if there is some reason to be cautious about this new measure, it does not even come close to signaling the end of the republic and if it does reach such a point, there are always the the courts to which the American people may appeal.

I wanted to point out that there are two or three very reasonable arguments against accepting this action by the Federal government.

Granted they may sound frivolous, but to me they are not.

1) Lack of disclosure. As you can see from the emphasized element of your excerpt above, I take exception to an unspecified collection of information regarding my person being available to a federal employee 'on demand'.

2) Lack of transparency. This government has operated as an employer of transnational corporations and organizations. It is they who will be warehousing this information. No I don't trust contractors. Especially insofar as they are routinely immunized from oversight and legal action by the government, without satisfactory due process.

3) I don't want one. I don't expect to have American dollars line the wallets of some consulting security concern that isn't even subject to US law. I don't have the confidence in the Administration to implement, the Congress and/or Senate to oversee, nor the Judiciary to appropriately defend civil rights issues stemming from the data-mining that this tool is tailor made to facilitate.

I respect your opinion, and I realize that it may seem reactionary or even a bit overzealous to characterize this in a "doomsday for freedom" light. But, I have not been reassured by the actions or tenor of my government in the last few decades. Quite the opposite. This is not an irrational fear of the Real ID act, it is a cautious rejection of those promoting it.

Well, if you don't want such an ID, the article clearly states that you don't have to have one.

The unspecified information is as yet to be decided, therefore it is "unspecified" and not only that, but such information would be regulated by the states.

In any case, regardless of what information such a card may contain that is objectionable to you, according to the law, you can be issued a DL or ID that is non-compliant, so I don't see what your, or anyone else's, problem is.

It's an individual choice.

It's my guess that once these things become common, which I many not live to see, the citizens of those states who chose not to comply will be clamoring for them.