The Myths about socialized healthcare

I have just been reading through THIS Thread, Titled "its like something out of the third World.

After reading through it, i decided maybe if the myths or fears where addressed, then some people may start a ball rolling which would benefit everyone.

First let me tell you that the British NHS is far from perfect, i do promise you however that everyone gets treatment no matter what race, color, disabilities, or illness you have, nobody in an office will tell you what you can and cant have.

Ok, first off there is not a single reason why anyone can't get to a Hospital, Ambulances are free, no such thing as worrying about a bill before you attend the ER or as we call it A&E, even if you just have an appointment at a Hospital clinic, if your too unwell to travel alone or even with a companion, Ambulances will be provided by your General Practitioner, you just need to call them (obviously with a few days notice) and you will have one provided to you free of charge to take you there and bring you home, in an Emergency like most other countries you call the Emergency number and they come to help you, no checking insurance details, the whole idea is to asses you and get you to help ASAP.

If your well enough to travel to the Hospital unaided but can't afford it, or even if you can, your traveling expenses are refunded to you, no waiting for weeks and filling out a ton of forms to get refunded, all you need is your ticket for whatever means of transport and you will be refunded for your journey in both directions, there is a fixed price per mile if you travel by car, although most people do not reclaim traveling expenses, being happy that help was there is enough for most, however some people just can't afford to lose that money so ask for a refund, and it is given with no complaints or interrogation.

If your treatment is only available in a different part of the country, or you choose a specialist Hospital for your illness, then again same rules apply, your travel will be paid in full both directions or an Ambulance provided to get you to your appointment.

Sometimes you have to wait to see a doctor, and during busy periods this can be quite some time, but you are seen by a triage nurse to ensure what is wrong is not going to kill you while you wait, you then have to see a doctor, normally a junior doctor, this is so tests can be performed while you wait to see a doctor more directed at you illness, this doctor can then if they are not happy or concerned call a more senior doctor who makes a decision as to what happens next, and what will benefit the patient most, if admitted you are then assigned a consultant who will deal with you until you go home, or the patient is passed to a more specialized health care official.

By more specialized official, i mean Physiotherapist, Mental Health Consultant, diabetes Nurse ETC, whoever will take steps to heal you best, and all the time you are still under the Consultant who receives reports and makes changes as they see fit.

If you stay in the Hospital, you will be assessed if need be on your home life, this is to make sure you have care when returning home to aid in the healing process, if there is concern over your health or they think you need assistance, then Social services, Occupational Health workers, Community Nurses, become involved, this is in case you need adaptations to your home (hand rails) or if you need a wheel chair, walking stick, almost anything to aid your healing will be loaned to you, home adaptations are free normally, depending on what is needed, even then Government grants are available to cover the cost.

Prescriptions and medications are free if you are: under 16 (18 if you are still attending full time education) not sure about university? free if you are unemployed, or not working because you are injured, ETC, Those who do pay there is a charge of £7.10 per item, no matter what the item costs for the NHS to buy, this system can be abused and is by some, there are some drugs which have recently become controversial for the likes of cancer, Alzheimers disease, because of the cost drug companies try to charge the NHS, some local authorities refuse to pay their prices, this then becomes what they call the postcode lottery, because some authorities will buy it for their patients, this is very controversial here in the UK, the argument being the drugs should be available to all who need them, this doesn't happen because of the price labels, and some authorities refuse to be blackmailed, this happens however with very few medications.

New rules are slowly coming into place, which allows the patient the right to choose, for example, if i need surgery on my heart, i have a right to see statistics for each and every Hospital who offer that treatment, and then choose which one i feel will benefit me more, thats when travel and ambulances come into the bigger picture, there are posters in Hospitals and ambulances that say, stop worrying about getting to the Hospital, think about getting better instead, (not word for word, but shows the idea).

There are no wasteful tests here, no testing just for the sake of it, that is because we dont pay, its not about profit at all, sure we have private Hospitals, and some people do have health insurance to use them, however if there is no place for you in an NHS Hospital for your treatment, then the local authority will cover the costs of your treatment in a private Hospital or Clinic.

Doctors here still make house calls (free) a district Nurse will come to your home to change dressings or check on your progress if needed (free)
Occupational health workers will come to your home to see if any adaptations are needed, IE: Stair lift to get you upstairs, a shower cubicle or over bath shower, bath lift to lift you in and out of the bath, commode for toilet needs, or a more permanent solution like adding a toilet or small bathroom, all that free, unless you have the means to cover the cost, but even then most of it will be covered, Social Services will assess your needs and provide or help towards payment of someone who will come to your home and clean, cook, almost anything you cant achieve comfortably yourself.

This is Socialized Health Care in Britain, and believe it or not, there are still those who whine and bitch about the service, sure its not all fantastic, some of it is very much broken, but i know my whole family will receive the best treatment available without being asked how we are going to pay first.

I lived in the US for a few years, and had need of medical treatment in Flagstaff when my heart decided it was going to give up, the first thing asked when i got to the Hospital was, did i have insurance, i said yes, but because the heart condition was pre existing they refused to cover it, after i had shown evidence that i could pay they where only too willing to help, which is fair enough, in the end it cost in the region of $22.000 before i got to return home nearly 3 years later.

We do not have to call a politician to get permission for treatment, we dont have to call anyone unless we need an ambulance, we are not a communist country, (whats wrong with being a communist anyhow? isnt commie hating a little 1950's? and out dated?).

Finally i had to start this thread because of most of the commie BS in the other thread, i felt like the idea of socialized health care needed to be shown for what it is and not a load of propaganda fed to people by a greedy government, allowing people to die because they couldn't afford a drug, im certain also that visitors from most countries are given the exact same treatment as we get, most of it for free, and certainly not to make a profit if they do get charged for tests, if you cant afford it you still get treated, another brit or maybe someone who works for the NHS im sure will fill in the blanks.



Continued below

There is also a medical card system in place in Ireland for people under a certain income. They get their medical care and prescriptions for free. Most other people have health insurance.

The scenario which is constantly played out in the above situation though is that the people with Health insurance get better and prompter care, especially when it comes to non life threatening surgery and hospital bed placement/availability.

Which i think is fair enough, seeing as they are paying for insurance.

When i hear people in the US talking about how socialized medical care is bad, I cant help but think how twisted that concept sounds to me.

It makes me shudder to think how they would treat a poor single working mother with a sick child who can barely afford rent, let alone medical care.

In Ireland and the UK - she would get a small modern house for her and her child (rent approx €9 per week & which she could later buy for next to nothing), medical care and social security payments from the government until she was back on her feet.

I suppose, the non - socialized approach to a situation like this is better, just leave them the way they are and turn a blind eye. Hopefully they will both die off... problem solved - now they can spend the government money on weapons and hookers.

I recently watched Michael moores movie sicko, in that movie he talks about how politicians in the USA told lies to the people to stop them wanting a Socialized Health Care system, you can see this movie online Here


Also here is a Socialized Health Care to what we call NHS direct, we can use the phone or internet, we can call and ask for an opinion as to whether or not we need to go the Hospital for treatment, 9 times out of 10 they call you back after discussing your problem with a Doctor or Specialized nurse, the decision is always yours to make.

I attend a center called the National Refractory Angina Center,( NRAC) at this center i am part of what is called the expert patient program, i am given a list of treatments available for my illnesses, and it becomes my choice what direction i wish to go, after several bypass procedures, i now control my symptoms with medication, that is until i think i can undergo other preventative measures, I have been ill for over 14 years, and managed to drag myself back up and go back to work as a Geologist for 7 years before i had to finally retire.

Under the guidance of Professor Mike Chester
The first rule of the center is there is no such thing as an Angina Attack, they are called Angina episodes, his team which includes Doctors from different fields in Medicine have proven that Angina is not causing damage to the heart, they discovered the pain from Angina is the heart repairing itself by creating new arteries to replace the area damaged by a Myocardial Infarction (Heart Attack) Mike Chesters research has also shown that patients with Angina, are less likely to die from a Heart Attack than those who dont, i find myself extremely lucky to be involved in such a research study as a patient.

With many advancements in Medicine such as this coming through a society with Socialized Health Care, and this is just the tip of the iceberg, how can such a system be deemed as unworkable?

Indeed for those of you who read this, who know someone who suffers from Angina even to the extreme where they can hardly function with any kind of normality, read up on the work of Professor Mike Chester, he could be the answer your family member or friend has been looking for.

NRAC

Socialized Health Care does work, and it works well, it is paid for in our taxes, and those taxes will work out to be a heck of a lot less than what you pay for now with your insurance companies.

Im interested to know what Socialized Health Care works like in other countries? care to share?


Fix links my comp is being bad

[edit on 7/8/2008 by azzllin]

Hi, I live in Norway, and we also has socialized healthcare. We pay our taxes (I actually do it gladly), and in return we are taken care of if we get sick or injured. A very sensible and good idea, if you ask me.

Not so terrible to live in a socialist country, you see:

Brasilia, 27 November 2007—Iceland has narrowly passed Norway to take the top spot on the Human Development Index (HDI), according to the 2007/2008 Human Development Report (HDR) released by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) today. Norway had held the number one ranking for the previous six years. This change in ranking is a result of new estimates of life expectancy and updated GDP per capita figures, stress the Report authors.

hdr.undp.org...

I have to agree that socialized medicine works for me. I know the NHS isn't perfect but it's a damn sight better then the prettier but less accessible US healthcare system.

I also experienced the healthcare system in Switzerland. Their system isn't socialized per say. However EVERYONE gets top notch medical care. It is a requirement to have medical insurance. If you can't afford it then the goverement pays it for you. Also insurance companies aren't allowed to deny coverage for prexsisting conditions - What isn't covered is decided by an independant body, NOT The insurance companies. I had a surgery under Swiss healthcare which would NEVER be covered by any US medical insurance company.

Healthcare IS a human right and you should get it no matter what your financial situation. To argue otherwise is just plain inhumane.

reply to post by azzllin


Well done, well thought out. Starred and Flagged.

I am a Nurse in the NHS working on a Trauma and Orthopaedic Ward and my partner is a Nurse working on a Respiratory Ward. My sister is also a Nurse working in a Day Surgery Unit and I have 3 Aunties who are retired Ward Sisters ........ You could say we are a nursing family.

You are pretty well spot on in your description of how the National Health System works in the UK.

Waiting lists are by the way now down to approximately 18 weeks for non-urgent operations. What this basically means is that the operation has to be carried out WITHIN 18 weeks. I do know for a fact that in my NHS Trust most elective orthopaedic surgery is carried out within 5/6 weeks of the first consultation. I have even known patients who have actually asked for a later date than the 5 week one as they thought it was too early. All patients now are audited so delays can be flagged up. WE are getting the lists down, but it takes time and we are winning.

reply to post by Dermo


I agree with you, it really does sound twisted, i cant get my head around the fact that Hospitals reach for the credit card reader before reaching for the Medicine.

I remember a friends daughter was involved in a car crash, thankfully nobody was seriously hurt, but people where looking for who to blame and send the medical bill too, rather than being grateful everyone involved was alright.

Everyone was fine, but a couple of days later they where walking around with neck braces on, talking about lawyers and compensation.

They where drilling this kid on what to say when asked, the kid could not comprehend what was going on, the adults became real paranoid over who would ask what and when, and the chance a slip up would ruin their claim for damages.

My feeling is that if it became a reality and Socialized Health Care was allowed to happen, these kinds of things would become less and less frequent, teaching a 9 year old to lie and telling them it was alright to do so sickened me to my stomach it really did.

To be honest i only put part of the blame for that on the adults, the adverts by Lawyers, like we have here in the UK now too, are what is driving our health and livelihood into the ground.

While the insurance companies and lawyers are allowed to get away with what they do, i doubt anything will change, to much profit to be made from the suffering of others, and its advertised in a way that its alright to do that.

Without the threat of medical bills running into thousands if not tens of thousands, it would give people a lot more confidence, maybe then things would begin to get better for everyone.

It seems like nothing is done to benefit Mankind anymore, anything that looks like it could, vanishes from sight and is not heard of again.

If i had one wish just one id wish for an end to greed of any kind, there is nothing more uplifting and gracious than the feeling you get when you can genuinely make someone smile by doing something for them without wanting something in return.

The biggest problem I've witnessed here in the U.S., especially in Massachusetts where I grew up, is we have families that generation to generation are taught how to live off the state and never contribute to it. Those who do work for a living wind up paying higher and higher taxes to cover the ever increasing numbers of those living off the state.

reply to post by CO Vet


In every country in the world there will always be certain individuals who have no interest whatsoever in contributing to the society. There will always be people who think it is just fine to let the rest of us pay for the roof over their head and the food on their table. It's not fair, and it is not right, but that is the nature of some.

But you also have to take into consideration those people who have a very hard time because of circumstanses they can not control. What about war veterans, who may be both physically and emotionally crippled for life? What about children born into families where sexually, physical and emotional abuse is just part of everyday life? What about people who have lost everything because of natural disasters like Kathrina?

I think it is the duty of society to take care of those among us who need it. I think it is the duty of all human beings to feel responsibility and compassion towards those who can not take care of themselves. We just have to live with the fact that some will abuse the system.

And honestly, would you want to be one of the parasites, just because it is possible? Wouldn't you rather wake up every morning with the pride of knowing that you contribute and pull your own weight through life? And that some of your tax money even help human beings less fortunate than yourself?

Some people think that society is making things worse by helping the poor and the sick. Let them fend for themselves. So the logic must be: If we help the poor and sick, everybody wants to be poor and sick insted of financially safe and healthy?

Originally posted by CO Vet
The biggest problem I've witnessed here in the U.S., especially in Massachusetts where I grew up, is we have families that generation to generation are taught how to live off the state and never contribute to it. Those who do work for a living wind up paying higher and higher taxes to cover the ever increasing numbers of those living off the state.

Thats a natural progression that occurs from unemployment and social benefits. Anywhere there is a social program, there will be spongers. But their lives will develop accordingly and will rarely amount to much.

Now, as a U.S. Citizen, please allow me to address a few myths. The U.S. provides MediCare and MedicAid to those people who cannot afford health coverage - we do not simply eject the indigent from our hospitals based on their ability to pay. It is Federal law that hospitals treat trauma and emergency victims regardless of their ability to pay. Almost every major city has a charity hospital that will work with patients unable to pay. Most major cities have various free or low-cost health clinics to address minor illnesses and wellness visits.

Many cities provide free ambulatory services within their cities while others charge a fee based on the communities ability to pay for the service through taxes - which is both fair and reasonable. Each community can vote to provide free abulatory care if it so chooses.

The vast majority of Americans are for a third-party payor system as it currently exists - the complaints emanate from the many providers in the thrid-party system concerning themselves with profit over care. This is something easily legislated by implementing cap systems and would allow for the effecincies of the current system to remain.

We, as Americans, do not want another heavy-handed socialist program dropped at our feet at HUGE tax-payer expense. This will undoubtedly create a HUGE beaureuacratic hog rife with inefficiency, ineffectiveness and long waits. We already have safeguards in the system to care for the indigent and under-privledged - it is up to them to consult with their local government officials to better understand what they qualify for and how to enroll. The problem is that many are too lazy to do so. It is this same laziness that generally keeps them engaging in the active labor market where health insurance is generally provided. In the event a small comapny cannot provide it, wages can be used to purchase coverage - something I have done on my own for myself and my family for over a decade.

The REAL problem with Socialist medicine is that it creates entitlements, is inefficient and incredibly expensive. I have no desire to pay MORE taxes for some lazy SOB to call an ambulance, be rushed to the emergency room for the flu.

Finally, if socialized medicine works so well, why is the U.S. medical system inundated with foreigners looking for care? Why do Canadians regularly cross the border for services? Why do Europeans, Middle Easterners and Asians regulary come to our hospitals for surgical procedures? Think about that for awhile.

Originally posted by kozmo

Finally, if socialized medicine works so well, why is the U.S. medical system inundated with foreigners looking for care? Why do Canadians regularly cross the border for services? Why do Europeans, Middle Easterners and Asians regulary come to our hospitals for surgical procedures? Think about that for awhile.

Give me some facts and figures to back up what you are saying.. its easy to spit out a comment like that.

If this is the case, have you thought that it is possibly because they are living in the US...? You do realize that the majority of the US is what ye seem to call "foreigners".
AND you could say these things about any country... People from other countries visit other countries for whatever reasons.
I know plenty of Irish people who travel to Hungary and croatia for breast augmentation... simply because the procedure is a lot cheaper there... not because the clinics and med care is better.

I can honestly say i have never met anyone who has travelled to the US for any type of medical op except for specialist plastic surgery which was really a US thing until recent decades.
Thats not saying that someone wont travel from Europe to the US to visit a specialist for some extremely obscure condition... but this is extremely unlikely to happen an any large scale.

Especially because it would be free in EU countries, standards would be just as high AND the expenses to travel to the US, get the procedure and stay there would obviously blow the budget

Also, how many Americans travel to other countries for procedures?

Think about that for a while



[edit on 16/06/08 by Dermo]

Originally posted by kozmo
Finally, if socialized medicine works so well, why is the U.S. medical system inundated with foreigners looking for care? Why do Canadians regularly cross the border for services? Why do Europeans, Middle Easterners and Asians regulary come to our hospitals for surgical procedures? Think about that for awhile.

Because they can pay for it. Not all countrys have 'socialised medicine' so for some they treat the US system as their own private healthcare system.

You said that taxes would go up, yes they would, but take away your insurance premiums you would have to pay and you would actually be better off financially.

The only reason that I could think of why some would go to the Us for healthcare is the possibility of having treatment earlier, so bypassing the waiting lists. I cant speak for other countries but in the UK its LESS than 18 weeks for non-urgent/emergency surgery.

We have private healthcare in the UK too and frankly you dont get anything different apart from perhaps a private room, chef, less waiting for the operation and a massive bill at the end of it.

Considering that we're already paying income tax that is unnecessary, do we really need more taxes. What about the people who take responsibility of their own health? I believe this country was founded on the basis of self-liberty. That includes self-responsibility.

Our local governments should take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

I have to agree with kozmo.

The one thing I don't agree with, however, is the way our healthcare system is a business first and then a healthcare provider. So I'm kind of split on this issue.

-Dev

Most people in the other thread against the social healthcare system, seem to think it's the bottom of the barrel treatment. They no doubt envisage a dark room, a light bulb singing to and fro as a surgeon hacks away at you with a saw they bought from the local DIY store. Of course it's nothing like that.

They also seem to think that social healthcare will lead to a full blown communist nation. Well it's been about 60 years since this country started the NHS and so far we aren't going all communist or socialist.

I will again bring up the fact that the USA has plenty of social systems in place already. The police, the libraries, the schools, the coast guard (i think might be wrong on that one). In the end some social things are a good idea.

Just to add a note about waiting times. My own mother had cancer and was seen within a week for her operation, an operation that was very new and absolutely cutting edge. She never had to worry about the cost, she just had to concentrate on getting well. Studies have shown over and over again that stress inhibits recovery. Imagine the stress of having to pay back 20k. I mean insurance doesn't always pay out you know.

My father is diabetic, recently he had a horrible thing appear on his foot (diabetics are prone to dangerous foot complications). So he phoned the NHS hotline and asked about it. They spent 5 minutes talking to him and then said they'd phone back, within half an hour with a more specialised nurse.

Good to their word they phoned back within half an hour, a nurse asked him more questions and after a chat about it she found a local specialist clinic for diabetics. He went the next day (note this wasn't an emergency) and was treated.

Then there are all the free screenings done for so many diseases. I know we pay for them in taxes but preventitive care actaully saves us money in the long run and stops beds being used. Every woman over a certain age gets a breast scan for example.

I can't imagine a better system.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by kozmo

Finally, if socialized medicine works so well, why is the U.S. medical system inundated with foreigners looking for care? Why do Canadians regularly cross the border for services? Why do Europeans, Middle Easterners and Asians regulary come to our hospitals for surgical procedures? Think about that for awhile.

Maybe you should check that again, because for example in Michael Moores film, an american crosses into Canada for treatment and that's quite common if you look it up. As for europeans visiting your hospitals, well i've only ever heard of that happening in rare cases where they need a specialist. Do you know that americans also fly to the UK, Italy and other countries to find a specific specialist? That's not because the system is better it's just that's where the person they need is. The UK has some leading people in their fields.

The UK is absolutely inundated with foreign people using it or wern't you aware of that? Think about that for a while.

Please understand, when i started this thread, it was by no means intended to say that any system is better than another, although i do have an opinion, and choose to keep that to myself.

What i will say is that wherever in the world i have had to use the local Medical services, one thing i found that they all had in common, was the fantastic professional care i received from the Medical staff, im not including doctors in that simply because Doctors take an oath and on the most part adhere to it.

Im talking about the Radiologists, the porters, the Paramedics, all the way to the person who arrives with a cup of tea always at the right time it seems.

Mostly and not taking anything away from those i just mentioned and those who i didn't who do an equally fantastic job, Mostly the Nurses, they do a fantastic job no matter what the circumstances are, even in violent situations with drunken yobs, or even someone who can't help themselves because of a head injury or just plain old nasty for the sake of being nasty patients, Nurses continue through everything it seems, and all of it aimed towards starting the curing process.

Nurses are dedicated and go way out of their way to help in any way they can, and for some of the lowest wages paid to any professional in the UK, in every country it seems the same dedication is there, and never asking for anything in return other than respect.

Nurses are the backbone to every medical service wherever you may be, sometimes and ive witnessed this for myself, seeming to hold the departments they work in together, and most of the time they are training student nurses at the same time, ive seen them respond instantly when someone is in distress while some Doctors freeze.

Some of the worlds unsung HERO'S IMO, and i doubt i could ever repay the kindness ive seen.

Dont you agree?

reply to post by kozmo


Its funny that many that decry the US system don't actually have alot of experience with it. As Kozmo points out there are systems in place that truly does cover everybody. Nor do you have to wait for procedures, treatments etc.

Its not just patients comming across the border from Canada its thier doctors too. Few years ago Sick Childrens Hospital in toronto (one of the premier childrens hospitals in the world) lost thier cardiac surgeon to a hospital in the US. Why? He actually almost made the same money, but there were ZERO limitation on the number of cases he could do here as opposed to in Canada.

Each systems has thier plusses and minuses as with everything in life.

Originally posted by FredT
Its funny that many that decry the US system don't actually have alot of experience with it. As Kozmo points out there are systems in place that truly does cover everybody. Nor do you have to wait for procedures, treatments etc.

Ditto, i'm afraid the americans who denounce our NHS system have usually never experienced it. Also do you realise that in the USA there are 70 year olds being forced back to work to pay their medical costs? Do you realise lots of insurance companies often only cover prescriptions up to a certain level and not the lifetime of the illness? It goes on and on like that i'm afraid.

Originally posted by FredT
Its not just patients comming across the border from Canada its thier doctors too. Few years ago Sick Childrens Hospital in toronto (one of the premier childrens hospitals in the world) lost thier cardiac surgeon to a hospital in the US. Why? He actually almost made the same money, but there were ZERO limitation on the number of cases he could do here as opposed to in Canada.

The NHS doesn't have limits on the amount of operations a surgeon can do, so i don't understand the canadian system. The only limits are working hours and that's to prevent mistakes by a tired surgeon.