Love and Purpose among men

Last night I watched a film with my partner called : The Ninth Company
It got me to thinking. In fact, it kept me up half the night.

The film was about a company of Russian soldiers who faught in the Afghani/Russian war. It concentrated on the last year of the war before Russia pulled out in 1989.

The movie followed the same formula as most war films I have seen about the Vietnam war, as in, it follows a group of young men as they go through basic training and then the first few months of fighting. Even though it follows that same formula I'd like to highly recommend the film as it very well written, acted and directed.

I have never been a soldier. I will never fight in a war. I AM a woman - so guys, if I'm way off base don't hesitate to let me know

I have been really down of late when I consider the state of youth in the UK. I'm not picking on the UK, I just happen to currently live there. If you live here you will know that the sorry state of youth in the UK is in the news everyday. You only have to walk down any high street on a Friday night to see it with your own eyes. It's a shameful state of affairs in my opinion.

It is my opinion that the reason this situation exsists is the lack of purpose and love in their lives.

Can war give purpose? Can war give love? It seemed to give purpose to that greatest generation that lived, worked and faught through WW2. It seemed to give purpose to the young Russians who faught in Afghanistan.

It seems to me that war allows men to love each other in a close intimate way without any homosexual overtones.

Each generation should be able to use the prior one as a foundation. I think that my generation and my parents generation may have been lousy, crumbly foundations. They squandered a very solid foundation built on the backs of the generation that lived through WW2. It depresses me to think what the next generation will be like as their foundation is made of sand.

Is the lack of love what is excaberating a culture of bad behaviour? Can love be found in war? Is the fact that men aren't really allowed to love each other in western society harming our youth?

Could war be good for the current generation?

Merigold,

I have seldom agreed with the posts of your's I have seen but I must admit you have made a good one here and posted a well thought out question worthy of careful consideration and a well thought out answer.

War is never good for any generation...war in the human sense. One expends alot of ones finest blood in todays wars and nations seldom claim the spoils of war as it were in the olde days. The victors get the spoils. This means that the participants, especially today,fight for someone elses spoils..someone not seen...and often not even known by most of the participants.

The youth of the UK are doing down the road they are because they have been brought up in a counterfit system. One of " I deserve."..without risk..at the expense of others. Basically a system of breastfeeding till older ages..and even into older ages. Hence they need take very little seriously. Instant gratification.
I have been hearing for years now about the problems in the UK and some other countrys with the youth.

War can give purpose no doubt but so can shared hardship...without war.

I have very few male friends and also few female friends by choice. One male friend I can even claim I have a love for him...not in the homosexual sense but out of respect as we both have amateur radio licenses..both work in hazardous occupations. We know what RISK is for our moneys hard earned. We both work in the same place though different shifts. Been friends for over 20 years. Both have literally put our lives and safety on the line in different experiences for our moneys. He is an electrician and I am a machinist.

Certain Hardships/Risks/discomfortures...breed maturity/serious thinking abilitys...not so with idleness..and artificial enviornments or peer groups and entitlement beliefs which are born of breastfeeding...or being breastfed. Instant gratification again.

This is not an experience/knowlege one gets in the cloistered enviornment of a government financed public school..or what I often call a television education.

By the way Merigold..ever notice or take account of the number of people you know who cannot describe or define an idea or even a moral concept outside of some television program or movie they have watched??
They seem to live second hand through movies and television..their knowlege is second hand knowlege..second hand experience...not even their own. They live second hand lives and dont even seem to be aware of it. Ever wonder why there seem to be so many Drama Queens about today?? Male and female both?? IT is not accidental.

Incidently...someone is working very hard to institute just such a system here in the USA.

What war does to survivors is make one aware that time and life are prescious commoditys. Make the best and most mature results of it. This means seriousness..not mirth. Not constant play and idleness...amusement.

Amuse...A...without
Muse...thinking
Amuse...without thinking.

Got the point yet?? Understand why we have so much amusement bombarding us daily??? To keep us from thinking!!! Thinking seriously.

Dont misunderstand me here. I am not against fun or pleasure/mirth...but all things in proper proportions and the proper place.

Ever seen photos of people way back when photos were made on metal plates...or in early studios...before the earliest home box cameras. Ever notice you so seldom saw a person smile or clown around in those olde photos?? This is because one very seldom got the opportunity to even get ones picture taken. One did not want to be remembered as a buffoon..a clown..a person not to be taken seriously.
Today ..so many of us have such idle thinking/amused we cannot wait to clown around and ape for the cameras. A total 180 degree turn around.
It was an honor to be considered a serious person in those days. Which system do you see in effect today??

An educated person was considered a diciplined person. One would often ask.."in what dicipline were you educated?" Notice you dont or very seldom even hear such things anymore??

Being a clown and buffoon in pictures and video is considered a sign of greatness today.

The difference here is that people involved in a war or very dangerous occupations know what is is to be serious. To know with confidence..a surety that you can trust your life to another person...not only your life but the lives and futures of ones family/loved ones too.

I have gone into dangerous and difficult work locations with people who are not a surety..no conficence or abilitys...and with poor results. I have told my supervisors to take these people off my job...they are a danger. So too has my friend.
For men in peace and war this involves verbal communications and at times even non verbal...you just know with some people...you can see it in their movements ..in their eyes...they can focus..they can see in the dark, in a manner of speaking,....they have a very long attention span. I have seen many men...on the job..there is fire in their eyes..they can remain focused for long periods of time..yet they work these difficult and dangerous jobs..they dont let the job work them. They can stoke this fire up and down as needed to do these jobs. They are diciplined..they are not wildlife. Real men know this about a certain calilber of man. They have no illusions about this.
Real women can know this too. Among men you can use the cliche...."Confidence is High."

As a woman with enough acumen to voice such a worthy question as you have done here, I need not lecture you about the attraction/value of such conficence in a man who knows these things instinctively...yet through hard earned expeerience too.

Both men and women like this are becoming a rarity today.

Another thing Merigold...back in the day I was describing concerning the olde photos...our great grandfather's and great grandmother's time...and before...both male and female knew this instinctively. Pretty much across the board. They could both tell a wooden nickel in a human much better than do we today..male and female.

And yes..you are correct when you state that our foundations today are very lousy and crumbly. This is why history is such a poorly taught subject today. We are not desired to know much real history ..even of our own familys such that all this knowlege and experience can be replaced with .lousy crumbly foundations.

Well I hope this discription helps in your question. And thanks for such a worthy thoughtful question. Not many people even have the acumen to think such a thing thorugh today in times of such instant gratification.
I shall have to more closely watch your posts for a window into your soul as I have seen here today.

Thanks ,
Orangetom

[edit on 7-8-2008 by orangetom1999]

It's depressing that so many people thrive on conflict. Many people don't seem content unless they have someone or something that they can direct their hate towards.

Those who haven't found a purpose yet are more easily manipulated into hurting their own kind. But purpose can be found in creativity, and healthy relationships form when teamwork is a focus. We don't need war for that.

reply to post by orangetom1999


Thanks for the nice response - I don't post often but read a lot. This was my first thread but I had to get it out.

I get so very discourgaed sometimes at the state of the world.

I agree with the other poster that war shouldn't be the answer - I don't want it to be the answer, I want us to work together and be a team and be good stewerds of this planet and of each other, but reality is that we aren't until something brings us together.

Sometimes, thinking about that makes me want to cry.

Merigold,

War and confusion is the natural state of men. This is simply because the material...the very stuff of which we are made is not good stuff...inferior.

This is totally contrary to the system of beliefs and knowlege taught in public schools today. The concept taught today is that if we just get smart enough ..study and read enough...emote enough ..we will somehow become better people.

The track record of men in the times since written languages reads quite differently from what is taught in public schools today. THe very history.

Your expression of "Good Stewards" is an excellent one and also one seldom taught next to the intelligence standards/beliefs/religioin taught today in public schools. THe Spirit of being Good Stewards...is often one quite different from high intelligence...smarts per se.

I can understand one being or becoming discouraged..but on the other hand Merigold..one who is diciplined...who can go the distance...does not live for and get entrapped in their emotions. I am not saying that they do not have emotions..but they can dicipline their emotions into something more productive and worthy than discouragement. A daunting task at times....wth the trials and tribulations through which this world attempts to bring us to task.

Hang in there Merigold...your question is most certainly a worthy and rare one. Not the standard bill of fare one usually gets on ATS/BTS.
Be of good Cheer...and work on those diciplines such that you will be able to properly harness your emotions should the time ever come that you personally are put to task.

Oh..and one more thing Merigold...when you learn with confidence the skill of not living or being controlled by your emotions...you then learn to teach others...worthy of the understanding and in being Good Stewards of such principles. This is a lifelong task of its own...and a huge responsibility.

Orangetom


[edit on 11-8-2008 by orangetom1999]

I think we tend to not value what we perceive as being in abundance. When you know that there are over 6 billion people on the planet and almost all of the ones you meet irk you in some way or another, it's easy to lack that warm, fuzzy feeling for your fellow man.

When the world was comprised of small villages, tribes, communes, etc. and there was only one in the group who knew how to heal the sick among you, they were prized and protected. When it took a lifetime of training in apprenticeship to learn your craft, you produced quality work and those whom you supplied valued your work and your lifetime of training. Wouldn't want to lose the only blacksmith in town or the only dentist, etc. If one had no highly prized skill then it was incumbent upon them to be "nice" so that they at least weren't thrown out.

Now that we have literally billions of people that have so few valuable skills and so many machines producing "stuff", people are less valued.

Bonds are formed by hardships and/or mutual shared experiences. Since television is the primary shared experience by most, and economic hardship is common, most people relate by emoting through life via their second-hander spectator sport of tv watching and then griping about their jobs to others. Nothing much loveable there.

Also, people are persuaded (through the various media) to equate sex with love when they are clearly not synonymous.

It is quite possible for heterosexual men to form a strong bond and even to "love" their friend with filial (brotherly) love. Rare these days but possible. One most often sees it develop in times of war when the opportunity arises to have a shared experience and a hardship together.

In past generations it was assumed that women were not capable of such strong bonds outside of marriage to their husbands possibly because women were perceived as having so little hardship or so few shared experiences with others outside of marriage. Women in those days would tell you differently but that is the subject of another thread.

In the English language, there is only one word for love-"love". In other languages there are other words, each denoting a different type of love: "agape" (parental love), "phileo" otherwise known as "brotherly love". "Chessed" is a Hebrew word referring to marital love (not just sex but the committment, bond, loyalty associated with marriage). Sometimes confusion arises in English-speaking countries when speaking about loving someone. Qualifiers are added for clarification, ie: love him "like a brother", love him "like my own son", etc. I think men (especially men) are reluctant to say that they "love" another man without emphasizing that qualifier.

I believe it is possible for men to love one another with real love but peoples' concept of love is skewed, cultural taboos are monitored, social shunning (and worse) is exercised for perceived improprieties. All these and a lack of value for any man (mankind) hinders the close relationships we all crave.

Just my thoughts, but then again, I'm not a man.