The Destruction Of The American Family

reply to post by FRIGHTENER


Thanks for the ring of support.

It is not about the rights of an adult to have a child but the child’s right to be free of a fool for a parent.

I don’t think many people see it that way. It has nothing to do with race, religion, or any private matters. It is about how you treat the child or will treat the child. My system might have flaws and need work but it is better than letting any sack of garbage have a kid and harm that kid. I for one am sick of seeing children being hurt, I want something done about it now. Forget this talking nice to them in hopes they stop stuff. Something real needs to be done.


Raist

Posted by Raist:

think that there should be some sort of mandatory temporary (vasectomy/tubes tied) form of birth control done at a very early age

I never said it was racist. My point is that Hitler decided who could conceive and who couldn't, and your suggestion is that the state should decide that. Who decides whether someone is worthy of being a parent? Your idea of who is worthy might be very different from someone else's. Parenting techniques vary tremendously. This is a very slippery slope. In my opinion, such control smacks of the state acting as God. IMHO, the "state" already has too much power.

reply to post by Raist


I think we agree more than disagree on this topic. It is only the degree we would let others have control that we differ on. I am the exception to your rule about teenage mothers, and so I have a personal bias.

For the most part, I get nervous anytime a law or rule is imposed simply because of false stereotypes against a certain group of people. I do agree that protecting children supercedes an adult's rights, I just don't know who should be responsible for deciding where the line lays. There is not one answer to these problems and much will need to change before they disappear.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Where did I mention who should decide that? I never said who should decide because I am not sure who that could be yet? Obviously those who are in power now should not decide squat. They should not even be deciding where to have the next block party as they are all incompetent.

I never said the plan was perfected yet. Obviously people think of parenting in different ways. But we can all agree that those who are on drugs, beating kids (real beatings not spankings), molesting kids, or putting them in microwaves are all forms of bad parenting. Like I said there are things that people will see differently that also comes a lot of the time from belief systems as well which would have no part in this choice. Neither would there be something saying that same sex couples could not have children. I personally am not sure I agree with the idea but as long as they were loving to the child I would never keep them from having one.

The state though has no place in this choice at least not in its current state.

Raist

reply to post by Cameoii


As I said there are exceptions to every rule. You might be one of those as a teen mother or you may not I do not know you personally.

I have though met a great deal of women who were mothers as teens. Some no longer have custody of their children. Others treated their kids like positions that they could hand off to anyone to watch. Others were very loving and did everything they could to provide. The later is the only ones that I would support. The other two obviously have no place being a mother, though you can say they are not real mothers for how they are acting.

I definitely think you and I agree about the child’s rights over the adults. At least we can meet somewhere in the middle of this. As for who decides that is one thing that I have not worked out yet. As I mentioned in another post our government should not be deciding this at least in the current state it has been in for years and will most likely be in for even more years.

Raist

I understand what you're saying, Raist.

When a couple wants to adopt a child, they have to actively demonstrate that they will be good parents. They need substantial incomes, tons of character references, and a willingness to jump through thousands of hoops and wait a long time for their child, which in itself demonstrates that they care about the child who doesn't even live with them yet. Is it really so crazy to want to put biological parents through a similar sort of screening? I don't think so.

Of course, this idea works IN THEORY, and breaks down in real life because who will play the role of decider? The government? Absolutely not. That is the entity most unfit for such an important job. Private agencies? Possibly...but they are beholden to the free market and may just allow couples to concieve who have enough money to pay, like an undiscerning sperm bank. Can we trust the community with such a heavy burden? No way...there's a reason good fences make good neighbors.

So who does that leave to decide who may or may not concieve? Ourselves. And we're back where we started.

reply to post by sc2099


That is pretty much how I imagined it to work. Again though not sure who would decide. Those making decisions about adoptions seem to mess up and make bad choices, though maybe not as often as the media plays it out to be. I am sure that there would be a few that might even slip through the cracks but less than there are now I am sure.

Also I want to add one more thing about the teen mother. It is not the girls fault all of the time. Sure there are some who want a baby to try to keep a guy and it does not work. But there are others who are fooled into sleeping with some jerk who promises he will always be there but only want a one night stand. Like I said before there are exceptions to every rule but many are not fully capable of maintaining a healthy childhood for their baby let alone themselves. How many times do we see guys out there with kids by so many women they cannot keep track of the number and they are not helping any of them. There was more to my comment about teen mothers than just the mother herself.


I agree that it is going to be a hard choice deciding who would be a good parent and even then some will slip through most likely. I am glad we are able to come to some sort of understanding. It might be easier to understand each other on this if we were face to face vs. the internet where so much can get lost.

Raist

Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by FRIGHTENER

Thanks for the ring of support.

Y. W.

It is not about the rights of an adult to have a child but the child’s right to be free of a fool for a parent.

Exactly right!

It is about how you treat the child or will treat the child. I for one am sick of seeing children being hurt

Me too! As a victim of severe child abuse/ultraviolence, It's as simple as:
If you wish to have/raise a child,,, Make sure you can BE THERE to raise
that child, huh? Not have to go off to work, come home stressed/angry,
and impose that anger on a child!

I remember a saying that goes: "It takes a VILLAGE to raise a child".
Or a neighborhood, would do just fine, so other people can be more
involved in witnessing the care of the child, and have their input/advice
taken seriously, for the benefit of the child.

When I suffered a beating, it was behind closed doors. I wished someone
could have seen it happening, to stop it. My little brothers were hiding for
their lives, watching from under dressers, and bunkbeds, urinating them-
selves out of sheer panic, and terror.



[edit on 9/6/2008 by FRIGHTENER]

The Death of the typical American Family...


No more a mother and a father...
Only 2 parentail units...

The words mom and dad...
Get rid of them... they are TOO exlcusive...



This is just part of the Gay Reighcts movement...


Look down upon us 'breeders'...
We are backwards cause we want kids...


Facistism is Well and alive in the USA...
Not wearing a Swastika, and goose-steping...
But dressed in Rainbows, legislating against hetero-relationships...


Beware the Gay Reighcts movement...

First of all I must say that from the perspective of tv today, what I see in public, and people I know, the american family structure has been shot a long time ago. Grandparents raise more children today than do the parents of said children. Tenn pregnacy is out of control, IMO no teen should have a baby, they are not ready mentally or financially to raise them, hence the grandparents come in. I do not know but one family today that is actually the mother and father of the children they birthed and raised together, everyone else are part of extended families, or raised by grandparents, aunts, uncles, or family friends. IMO something needs to be done to solve the issue of teen and unwanted pregnancy, educating these young girls is worthless, they still go out and do it anyway, they WANT the hardship, they will tell you that it doesn't matter if they don't work, they will get a check. Then when they can't deal with it or they don't want what they thought they did, time for social services or grandparents to take over.


What kind of suggestions do any of you have to help with the problem that will not involve any kind of government interaction?

Volunteer at your local orphanage, it will make you so mad, and wonder what the hell is wrong with today's young mothers, why do they tend to deny their own flesh and blood the right to a life with it's family, usually it is because they are not part of a family, only an unwanted pregnancy. Recent news on missing child Caylee Anthony is an example of what can happen when a mother doesn't really have it in her to raise a child. Kids should not be having kids, and there must be a way to solve the issue, with or without government assistance.

When a couple wants to adopt a child, they have to actively demonstrate that they will be good parents. They need substantial incomes, tons of character references, and a willingness to jump through thousands of hoops and wait a long time for their child, which in itself demonstrates that they care about the child who doesn't even live with them yet. Is it really so crazy to want to put biological parents through a similar sort of screening? I don't think

reply to post by sc2099



Great analogy. I didn't think of that, but it is sooo true. Adoption ensures that the parents are willing and capable, something we just cannot do with the teens having kids. I don't think having a way to do the same thing would be wrong, even if the government does it.

Originally posted by space cadet

Kids should not be having kids,
What kind of suggestions do any of you have to help with the problem that will not involve any kind of government interaction?

Right on, space cadet- Star!
So glad you asked!

I would suggest a young girl be required to pass simple tests, such as:

1) Explaining WHY she will give birth. ( WANT is
unnacceptable).
2) Assist in caring for a newborn. (Supervised by the parents, and
video-taped for review by anyone & everyone, who will vote).
3) Volunteer at hospitals and orphanages (Thanks, space cadet for that)!
4) Hold steady employment for three years, minimum.
5) Exhibit NO violent tendencies. (Except when defending against fascists).
6) Write plan for first 18 years of child's life, and be involved with
implimentation. Example: grow food; clean-up environment; plant trees;
demand change of worthless TV programming, to not pollute the child
with corporate commercial greed; etc...
7) Demonstrate good morals, as an example to youngsters.
8) Be involved with youth groups, like Scouts, etc...
9) Show responsibility.

It's time we ALL get involved in preventing overpopulation. The sustain-
ability of our planet Earth is at stake.







[edit on 9/8/2008 by FRIGHTENER]

reply to post by FRIGHTENER


Child care should be one of those things they teach in school...what do they call those things you actually need in life....useful! Useful, that's it! Maybe if girls had to spend a week taking care of a real baby for 8 hours a day they wouldn't be so careless, or even worse, wanting to get pregnant.

Those flour or sugar sack 'babies' just aren't cutting it.

reply to post by FRIGHTENER


A star for you as well! You make a lot of great suggestions, expecially leaning towards the 'it takes a village' thinking, because it truly does. For those of you who remember what a 'normal' childhood was like, we all had neighbors who watched over everyone's kids, I don't mean take them on fully or babysitting all the time, but keeping an eye out, mentoring, guiding.

ya know, it seems like the stay at home mom would be more likely to be uninsured than other groups. I mean, the cheapest way to have insurance (without gov't assistance) is through employment. mothers of young children are less likely to be working full time.

so, considering this fact....
may I suggest that before we write more laws mandating people spend more money they just don't have, we do something with the healthcare system to ensure that those that may actually need the services has the ability to get them? you want to see a bunch of crazy moms, ya go ahead and threaten to take their kids away because you think she's alittle "depressed" and decide to demand that she get mental health services that she can't get because there's no insurance and no money!

instead of just preaching about living within our means, how about we actually try to practice it once in while....god, the healthcare cost in this country is driving the whole economy down the sewer and they make new programs to funnel more people into the clinics...

reply to post by space cadet

Tenn pregnacy is out of control, IMO no teen should have a baby, they are not ready mentally or financially to raise them, hence the grandparents come in.

I have to disagree with you on this. As a teen mom, I was not only financially, but mentally ready to be a mother. I worked two part time jobs at the time I was pregnant, finished high school & went on to college. At no point did I depend on outside help, nor did I need it.

My issue is your statement is far to general IMO. You say NO teen should have a child. That may be the case MOST of the time,and I agree, most are not ready, but it is not the case ALL of the time.

My children have always been my #1 priority and up until recently, I've been a stay at home mother by choice. (Just starting my career now.) I made the choice back then to be old-fashioned. I got married young, had children young and took on the role of full time parent, and now I have three wonderful children to show for it. I do not regret one day of my life as a mom or my choice to be one at a young age.

I think the bigger issue here is teens are not taught the same level of responsibility. Many lack knowledge that is vital to being a responsible adult such as the value of a dollar or what a hard days work really is. They just don't have the same maturity because many parents pander to their child's every whim. I grew up with a good foundation to build on and my father is 100% responsible for that. I also learned that actions have consequences. Something many teens lack understanding of.

Now onto the topic. Every single time the government makes one of these types of laws, there is abuse within the system. Sometimes is is an honest mistake, sometimes it is someone who decides to go on a power trip. (say someone who thinks that teens have no business being parents & their children should be taken from them in every case) Either situation is something that can not be afforded because innocent people get caught in the cross fire. It will also likely be counter-productive because it will probably instill a level of fear in new moms and they may not seek treatment because of the possibility that the government would interfere. (maybe even take their children)

If they want the situation to improve;
-Expand on the support and education options offered so that those who become parents have the proper tools available to be good parents. (many do, and will seek out these services)
-Teach children that there are consequences for their action. (Have sex and you may end up pregnant)
-Take away the welfare checks. (IMO, the only people who should be on welfare are those that are disabled, elderly and those who have temporary life set backs.)

Most importantly, The government needs to leave the psychological determinations to trained professionals, not nurses or doctors who do not specialize in the field. (Sorry, if you don't have a doctorate in Psychology, you have no business trying to determine the state of someone's mental health. The government needs to stop this socialistic approach and let the parents be parents.

reply to post by sc2099


I agree 100% ! My teen son knows how to cook simple meals, budget money/expenses, do his own laundry, basic yard work, how to fix a car, how to grow a garden & much more. My daughters will also learn all of these real life skills that are vital to being a productive adult just as I did.

A rite of passage in our family has always been the day with the baby. Each teen babysits the youngest child within the exstended family at least once to experience first hand the crying, teething, diapers, food throwing and overall work load that a real baby is. (The diaper changing seems to seal the deal everytime )

Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by Cameoii

 

As I said there are exceptions to every rule. You might be one of those as a teen mother or you may not I do not know you personally.

I have though met a great deal of women who were mothers as teens. Some no longer have custody of their children. Others treated their kids like positions that they could hand off to anyone to watch. Others were very loving and did everything they could to provide. The later is the only ones that I would support. The other two obviously have no place being a mother, though you can say they are not real mothers for how they are acting.

I definitely think you and I agree about the child’s rights over the adults. At least we can meet somewhere in the middle of this. As for who decides that is one thing that I have not worked out yet. As I mentioned in another post our government should not be deciding this at least in the current state it has been in for years and will most likely be in for even more years.

Raist

The things you mentioned are found in adult parents as well. Some people will just never be good parents, others will be great ones. Age really isn't the only factor in determining that. The children should always come first and too often they do not.

My sister, who can not have children, will not adopt because she knows the bio parents can reclaim the child for up to a year after adoption. Why would she put a child through a potentially devastating situation of being ripped away from the only parent they have known? She won't because she just could not do that to an innocent child.

This is just one example of how the current laws treat our children as a commodity owned merely by biology, verses a human with individual rights.

Originally posted by lynn112
reply to post by sc2099

 

I agree 100% ! My teen son knows how to cook simple meals, budget money/expenses, do his own laundry, basic yard work, how to fix a car, how to grow a garden & much more. My daughters will also learn all of these real life skills that are vital to being a productive adult just as I did.

These are also very valuable skills that should be taught in school. For the life of me I can't understand why most people see fit to waste 12 years of young peoples' lives on repetition, busy work, and putting your head down on your desk. Everyone should learn these skills as early as possible and yet there are adults who can't cook a meal to save their life or balance a checkbook. It's pathetic and sorry.

You also said

I think the bigger issue here is teens are not taught the same level of responsibility. Many lack knowledge that is vital to being a responsible adult such as the value of a dollar or what a hard days work really is. They just don't have the same maturity because many parents pander to their child's every whim.

and I totally agree but I'll go you one further. Many kids don't even have a father! They do of course, but they might never even know his name and certainly can't expect him to be a part of their life. I believe every child needs a father who can be Janus to him, stern to teach responsibility, yet kind and caring to teach love. Without this so many kids are just lost. Lots of kids do turn out fine with just a mother, but the odds of that aren't very good.

reply to post by Vikturtle


If something can effect other people, the government needs to do something about it. That is simple logic.