Into The Dragon's Mouth: Trying To Understand Ron Paul And His Supporters

reply to post by MegaTherion



I've posted this elsewhere but applies here,

I think allot of these guys just don't understand fractional banking. If they did I can't understand them making the clearly misguided statements they make. The IRS is hand in hand with the fed. We can abolish the fed.We can abolish the IRS. The government has the authority to spend money into existence interest free. Instead we have the federal reserve issuing the money at interest. Sure ,most of the money is repaid on the interest of the national debt as dictated by the Fed's charter that says payments in excess of there operating expenses will be returned . However the LEGAL banking CARTEL uses tax dollars to pay 100% of it's expenses with no real checks and balances as to the nature of the expenses.Whats left over goes back to the Treasury.Where the mother load comes from is not money out of nothing for the government, it's from money created out of nothing by the commercial banks for loans.So to say wow isn't the fed a generous bunch of fellas returning all that money, lets not forget the fact the huge amounts of cash moving into member banks in interest on nothing on the consumer and commercial loans. Once you understand this it's hard not to have these politicians hung for treason. Death and Taxes is a myth. You get close to zero for your income tax dollars. Your a debt slave plain and simple. And the old saying is there is no better slave the the one who thinks he's free.

Like another poster pointed out their are a multitude of other taxes that more than pay for the services offered by the government.

In Canada it works the same way. Most of the world works on the fraudulent fractional Reserve banking system. The other countries that don't rape there citizen with usury are comprised of the countres that make up the axis of evil countries.

You all currently have slave status within the statutes. They change you from a God created natural person to an artificial legal entity person/corporation also known as a Driver, Taxpayer, Voter, Officer, Parent etc It's within statutes they redefine who you are and steal your rights from you by dangling some benefit that you agree to with you signature. With that you sold into slave status and your just happy they gave you the privilege to drive you nice new car you just bought or are paying for on loan from the friendly neighborhood fractional reserve bank. All with after tax dollars.

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Swingarm]

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Swingarm]

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Swingarm]

This article in the news today,(read below) is going to bode well for our empire. I'm sure the Koreans now would love us to extend our stay, to...like Mcain would say "for another 100 years".

And sure enough like any domestic government intervention here at home, the said programs usually hurt those most purported to help.

So too we foolishly apply this nonsense of a domestic policy to our foreign affairs, and thus hurt those who we purport to help...

"SEOUL, South Korea - South Korean investigators, matching once-secret documents to eyewitness accounts, are concluding that the U.S. military indiscriminately killed large groups of refugees and other civilians early in the Korean War."

Source:http:// www.newser.com/article/d92av0og0/ap-impact-korean-commission-finds-indiscriminate-killings-of-civilians-by-us-military.html



[edit on 3-8-2008 by Gateway]

I personally am not a paulite. I'm a mainite. I believe in my own polices. These policies include:

Military:
Shutting down all military bases outside of the u.s. Moth balling a large part of the U.S. Navy. Reincorporating the Navy back into the Coast Guard. Reincorporating the Air Force, back into the Army. Reincorporating the Marines back into Coast Guard. The CIA Should be abolished. Thoroughly investigated, and anyone seen to be breaking the law tried. Reincorporate the Army back into the reserves. Yes mandate military training. What does this mean. After high school you go and do 4 years in the military active reserve. After which time, you can then go to college at any state school for free. If your opposed to the military, then you get non military training. this means you to FEMA, and learn to assist with disaster recovery in some form. If you are opposed to this, there is chaplain/mental training. You assist in helping at government training programs to assist the uneducated, the poor, or the mentally impaired. There will be no excemptions. In order to keep a small active army we need to have a large reserve ready.

Government AID:

Eliminating ALL GOVERNMENT AID programs. EVERY SINGLE ONE. It is not the responsibility of our government to provide aid to anyone. If someone wants to give aid, then give it. This includes bribing other countries to like us. No american tax payer monies should be spent on NON american personal. If a country so desperately needs aid for something, then they must agree to become a territory for 20 years. After which time, they can again decide what they want to do.

Social Security:
Social Security should be completely refunded. As people are refunded, they will no longer recieve benefits. It is not the responsibility of the government to take care of you for the rest of your life.

Corporate breakup:
No corporation should be allowed to control anymore the 1% of the market share. Corporations are an abomination to capitalism. Put the power back into the small business owners and let them flourish and grow. These people are the backbone of america not corporations.

Military Industrial Complex:
Mandate that 99.9% of all equipment sold to government must be made 100% in the U.S.A. This means all the way down to the bolts that put the car together. There is no such thing as a service oriented economy. This is nothing more then the means to make people slaves by replacing Higher paying jobs for lower paying ones.

Pharmacutical:
there a corporation and they will be broken up. Additionally mandate that they can not advertise directly to consumers. I am sick an tired of my 6yr asking me what Viagara is. We can not make an informed decision, and it should be the doctors decisions not ours how stuff is taken.

Medical System:
Its broke. Eliminate liability insurance for doctors. If they screw up, its there license, and they go to jail. Malpractice insurance is one of the main reasons why healthcare is so expensive. While its sad that you are a victim, making everyone else the victim by causing the price of healthcare to rise is not fair. Live with it, and move on. Additionally, There is no reason why a doctor should be paid anymore or less then anyone else.

Renewable energy:
There is some much potential for renewable energy. It is time to get off of OIL. It should be mandated that every new house built will have a solar panel system in it. All new cars should be built with a solar panel, hydrogen convertor that converts water to hydrogen using solar energy. Additionally they should have a battery backup.

FED AND IRS:
There a crock. The banks are a corporation too, and if you break them up to no more then 3, there whole entire system breaks. Break the banks up, dismantle the FED and the IRS. Eliminate income tax. and impose luxury taxes instead.

Executive power:
The President can not send troops or decalare war. All powers not directly given the president shall be expunged. The President shall however be given the line item veto.

Legislative Power:
No Congressmen shall serve longer then 10 years. No congressman shall accept any gifts in any form. Be given special treatment in anyway, or meet with anyone seeking to trade favors for political changes. All former congressmen shall be barred from heading, assisting, or utilizing former influence to persuade current congressmen. Additionally, they shall be given a lifetime salary equivalent to 1.5X the minimum wage. They shall be barred from working for anyone but the government. Congress shall be responsible for a balanced budget.

Judicial:
The judicial branch is responsible for upholding the law, not dictating the law as it pertains to the constitution. Supreme court shall be increased from 7 judges to 15, and shall serve a a maximum of 10 years. The judges panel shall be increased from 7 to 10. with 5 alternates. the panel panels will be broken into 2 groups charged with overseaing cases. Each group shall have 5 with 2 alternates, with the head judge only ajorning cases which he/she feels are important to national security. Or cases which he feels the secondary panel needs to hear as well.

State Rights:
All rights not actually decared by the constitution shall be reserved for the state. It is the states responsibility to oversea and develop the area within the state, including roads. There shall be no tolls or tariffs between states.

Other issues:
Eliminate Favored nation status in regards to trading. Eliminate the current trade system. Implement a FAIR trade system whereby only the amount of goods equal to 1.5X the amount exported to said country is allowed to be imported.

Withdraw from NATO, U.N., World Bank, and every other alphabet soup organization that seeks to thwart the rights of the american people.

After a congressman, president, or judge leaves office they will be required to turn over all Documents to the FBI. The FBI shall be tasked with seeing if any laws have been broken, including bribery. All crimes shall be treated as HIGH CRIMES and all HIGH CRIMES are considered TREASON. All properties shall be confiscated, the wrong doer shall be hung on public T.V.

All companies recieving monies from the government shall have NO relationship to outside forces. Several companies may work together, BUT they must have all personal within the U.S.

regards
Camain

reply to post by camain


Well thats great i agree with you on most of your points. You agree with Ron Paul as well on many of your points. Unless you were running yourself , why would you not support Ron Paul. Base on your outlook, who comes close?

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Swingarm]

Because Ron Paul has grown up within the politics and therefore can not be trusted. He may say one thing, but who is he in bed with.

I know who I'm in bed with, theres only one, and she calls me honey.

cheers

Camain

Originally posted by MegaTherion
However, I am aware that income tax pays for a lot of stuff.
Like Police, Firemen, Roads, Education, the minimum healthcare provided by Medicaid for poor kids, National Defense, much much more.

I'm sure by now everyone on here has educated you about income taxes and how not a penny of it goes to what you just said it did. It actually goes straight into the Queens bank.

Originally posted by MegaTherion
the Healthcare system is 99% private right now, and we face the highest prices for healthcare in the world, while a major part of the Healthcare consumer base is denied access due to being priced out.

Actually, we need to stop allowing the Government to give huge amounts of money to these companies... get rid of the lobbyists... and allow the market to set the price. One of the biggest problems with Americas healthcare system is the Insurance Companies themselves.

Originally posted by MegaTherion
I suppose what I wonder is how do we gain from allowing industries to control prices and police themselves, because every system that is already privatized is extremely corrupt.

Actually, it only seems privatized... the Gov takes money from the people out the front door and invests it in these "privatized" companies while gaining profits and sneaking it in the backdoor without the People knowing. In this way the Gov makes Trillions that you will never know about ... unless you know about CAFRs.

Originally posted by MegaTherion
besides that, how is it that more money ends up in your pocket with a privatized system, than with an Income Tax?

what I am trying to say is that we aren't getting to 'spend our money how we want' if Ma Bell/Microsoft runs everything, and charges whatever they want, what money you saved in taxes would go directly into corporate coffers.

Eliminate income tax and adjust cost of living and wages to where they actually should be and you wouldn't have to worry. Besides, letting the market determine the prices means that if you don't like Microsofts prices then don't buy microsoft.

Originally posted by MegaTherion
I think the best visual aid to the Privatized World is the 1985 movie 'Brazil'.

especially the part where they bill people for interrogations, including the widows if those who die in 'enhanced interrogation' sessions.

everything goes through Central Services, at a price, and at first it would seem to be an allegory for Socialist States, until you spend a few hours talking to Microsoft or Big Oil, or even your local utilities companies.

Here's a fun fact: in most rural regions, and those rural regions encompass a vast swath of the american landscape, the Utility Companies are de facto monopolies, and they charge whatever they want and feel no responsibility to provide reasonable tech support for their clients.

for instance, I'm sure some of you have used Comcast's lovely services, which have already forced people into insane attacks on local offices.

First off, you need to know just how much the Government has invested in the so called private Utility Companies. I'm not just talking about US Gov but other Governments from around the world. Our Utility companies seem like a monopoly because they have been Gov (US and abroad) owned and operated since the breakup of MaBell. If the Gov was taken out of the equation then I'm sure we would already be using alternative power sources throughout the US.

Originally posted by MegaTherion
a final point:

if we do not a basic all-around tax everyone pays something towards, even if it isn't much, we can't fund the basic functions of government, and everything becomes privatized, taking the power out of the hands of the citizens and into the hands of corporate entities, like walmart, which does a lovely trick: pay their employees enough to get by, then force them to get medicaid for healthcare.

'we aren't anti-union, we're pro-employee'

please, though, try not to be too insulting when responding to this thread. I haven't called you names, have I?

I am actually very interested to learn how a Ron Paul government would pay for basic services or national defense, and the answer I've heard so far about trimming the pork in the government is nice, and makes sense, but I don't see how privatization is a good idea.

Thank You For Reading,

~S

We The People do need to pay some State and Local taxes that we ourselves vote on EACH YEAR. Like a tax at the gas pump that everyone pays that goes towards fixing roads and bridges. These can be good taxes and everyone can agree on such. But we should be able to pull up a report showing how these taxes were used and where. That is why it should be done on the State and County levels... not the Federal level. Ron Paul knows that 90% of the taxes that we pay don't benefit the people but only go to stuff the pockets of Lobbyists and Government criminals. So, why not get rid of them. He's brilliant when it comes to economic systems and reform. You really need to read a few of his books. Income Tax is a fraud and it has always been a way to rob the people of their money. Not sure I answered any of the questions you had the way you wanted them answered, but I tried. Ron Paul really was True HOPE for this country... it's sad that America wasn't ready for him. When sitX happens, THEN people will be begging for him... it'll be too late.


EDIT: I just read your last post... it looks like Ron Paul would be exactly what you are looking for in a President. You even stated you would get rid of the Income Tax. Welcome to the Revolution!

[edit on 3-8-2008 by thecandyman]

Originally posted by camain
Because Ron Paul has grown up within the politics and therefore can not be trusted. He may say one thing, but who is he in bed with.

I know who I'm in bed with, theres only one, and she calls me honey.

cheers

Camain

That is totally rediculous! Ron Paul is the only candidate that can 100% put his money where his mouth is at. His voting record is perfect. It's plain to see that he says exactly what he means. Maybe you are feeling a little bad because you got trapped into voting for George Bush because he lied his way to the white house... but that doesn't make Ron Paul the same way. Your logic is illogical at best. You need to educate yourself on the issues and check the voting record of the man you are putting down. He is spotless. He is the closest this country has had to a Founding Father running for Prez and America shut him out. That says that America deserves everything that has happened in the last 8 years and all that is about to come.

I an not putting Ron Paul down. I am simply saying that I know who owns me. I do not know who owns him. I am not his friend, brother, father, mother, sister, love-goat, or anything else that knows him personally. As such I consider him first a lifelong politician. He may very well be legit, but he is still a politician and until I have an aquantance that becomes one. I will never trust one. You don't get into a position of power by doing whats right. You get there and stay there the will of the elite. Trust yourself to do what you think you will do, trust others only as far as you can throw them.

Camain

Originally posted by camain
I personally am not a paulite. I'm a mainite. I believe in my own polices. These policies include:

I see some of these as kind of silly.

Originally posted by camain
Military:
Shutting down all military bases outside of the u.s. Moth balling a large part of the U.S. Navy. Reincorporating the Navy back into the Coast Guard.

Well I'm a huge proponent of a strong Navy, simply because it takes forever to build ships. Same with the Air Force. You can't just increase the size if you're at war - you die. Thank goodness we don't listen to this.

Originally posted by camain
Reincorporating the Air Force, back into the Army. Reincorporating the Marines back into Coast Guard.

How can you "reincorporate" the Marines into something they were never part of? Their mission is definitely not part of the Coast Guard.

Originally posted by camain
The CIA Should be abolished. Thoroughly investigated, and anyone seen to be breaking the law tried.

So their goes our intelligence capability! Very nice.

Originally posted by camain
Reincorporate the Army back into the reserves.

This doesn't make sense and you didn't include the National Guard. You really need to reconsider your military policy and familiarize yourself more with our military structure.

Originally posted by camain
Yes mandate military training. What does this mean. After high school you go and do 4 years in the military active reserve. After which time, you can then go to college at any state school for free. If your opposed to the military, then you get non military training. this means you to FEMA, and learn to assist with disaster recovery in some form. If you are opposed to this, there is chaplain/mental training. You assist in helping at government training programs to assist the uneducated, the poor, or the mentally impaired. There will be no excemptions. In order to keep a small active army we need to have a large reserve ready.

So in your fascist regime, you would force everyone to serve the government, force them to surrender control of their private lives. And you would force the government to subsidize all secondary education. This would cost a fortune, and disregards personal freedom. You are insane; I think China would like your policies though. Maybe Stalin if he were still alive, he'd love it.

Originally posted by camain
Eliminating ALL GOVERNMENT AID programs. EVERY SINGLE ONE. It is not the responsibility of our government to provide aid to anyone. If someone wants to give aid, then give it. This includes bribing other countries to like us. No american tax payer monies should be spent on NON american personal. If a country so desperately needs aid for something, then they must agree to become a territory for 20 years. After which time, they can again decide what they want to do.

What about you massive, impossibly expensive and unconstitutional government subsidization of all the college education in the entire country?

Originally posted by camain
Social Security should be completely refunded. As people are refunded, they will no longer recieve benefits. It is not the responsibility of the government to take care of you for the rest of your life.

Yeah, we'll just pull the money out of our ass to pay everyone social security up front.

Corporate break

Originally posted by camainup:
No corporation should be allowed to control anymore the 1% of the market share. Corporations are an abomination to capitalism. Put the power back into the small business owners and let them flourish and grow. These people are the backbone of america not corporations.

So you want to destroy America's industrial capability and remove millions of jobs. And raise prices. Real good, man. Once again, Stalin would have loved you, not so much Hitler. This will kill small businesses as prices skyrocket and our corporate base is destroyed. I guess banks don't help, either. You really haven't thought this out, have you?

Originally posted by camain
Mandate that 99.9% of all equipment sold to government must be made 100% in the U.S.A. This means all the way down to the bolts that put the car together.

I guess you're going to pay for this, right? Because I'm sure not with my taxes.

Originally posted by camain
There is no such thing as a service oriented economy.

Well professional, educated economists, who actually know what they're talking about, disagree with you. You haven't thought this out, have you?

Originally posted by camain
Pharmacutical:
there a corporation and they will be broken up. Additionally mandate that they can not advertise directly to consumers. I am sick an tired of my 6yr asking me what Viagara is. We can not make an informed decision, and it should be the doctors decisions not ours how stuff is taken.

So you want to destroy ability to produce drugs, killing millions. Real good, dude. And you want to take away our ability to decide what drugs to take ourselves, forcing us to follow what the doctor says. Real good. I guess you know how to grow drugs on trees, because you want to break up drug-producing corporations. Once again, I'm sure you'll be paying for the massive price increase of drugs, right? Because I'm not.

Originally posted by camain
Its broke. Eliminate liability insurance for doctors. If they screw up, its there license, and they go to jail.

So I guess doctors are superhuman in your tyrannical regime! Let's imprison every single doctor who makes a mistake! Thanks, Stalin.

Originally posted by camain
Malpractice insurance is one of the main reasons why healthcare is so expensive. While its sad that you are a victim, making everyone else the victim by causing the price of healthcare to rise is not fair. Live with it, and move on.

Yeah, you were hurt, forget being compensated. Just "move on."

Originally posted by camain
Additionally, There is no reason why a doctor should be paid anymore or less then anyone else.

Except the >12 years in training (for a standard doctor, forget a specialist) and the massive debt they've racked up from college and medical school, and the shortage we're having of doctors. But I guess supply and demand doesn't mean anything in your tyrannical regime.

Originally posted by camain
There is some much potential for renewable energy. It is time to get off of OIL. It should be mandated that every new house built will have a solar panel system in it. All new cars should be built with a solar panel, hydrogen convertor that converts water to hydrogen using solar energy. Additionally they should have a battery backup.

I'm sure you're going to personally fund the implementation of this technology, right? Do you have ANY idea what this would cost? Any idea how this technology even works, or how its implemented? How many people won't be able to afford cars because of you? How many automobile companies will be destroyed?

Originally posted by camain
There a crock. The banks are a corporation too, and if you break them up to no more then 3, there whole entire system breaks. Break the banks up, dismantle the FED and the IRS. Eliminate income tax. and impose luxury taxes instead.

So I guess when interest rates skyrocket and banks fail because you decide that they have to be broken up, you're going to personally pay for them, right? And do you have any idea how you'd switch us off of the Federal Reserve?

Originally posted by camain
The President can not send troops or decalare war. All powers not directly given the president shall be expunged. The President shall however be given the line item veto.

Okay. But the line item veto? Congress negotiates for a bill, and then the president decides to veto half of it? How are you going to allow one man to dismantle careful compromise like that? That's silly, and entirely unconstitutional.

Originally posted by camain
No Congressmen shall serve longer then 10 years.

So Senators will only get one term? Why would they even bother making their constituents happy? You realize what such a shortage of experienced statemen would do, right? Especially because everyone in the Senate has zero Senate experience?

Originally posted by camain
No congressman shall accept any gifts in any form.

I guess Congressmen don't get Christmas, Birthdays, Father's Days, or anniversaries?

Originally posted by camain
Additionally, they shall be given a lifetime salary equivalent to 1.5X the minimum wage.

I guess that Congressmen get to live in poverty now?

Originally posted by camain
They shall be barred from working for anyone but the government.

So if a Congressman loses an election, you want him to be forced into government service? There goes personal freedom, or any sort of a career. Way to ignore the Constitution, too.
Congress shall be responsible for a balanced budget.

Your judicial bit...seems pretty silly to make the Supreme Court so complicated and confusing, when lower courts do most things anyway. The Supreme Court only rules when lower courts act incorrectly or don't know how to rule.

Originally posted by camain
All rights not actually decared by the constitution shall be reserved for the state. It is the states responsibility to oversea and develop the area within the state, including roads. There shall be no tolls or tariffs between states.

This is the Tenth Amendment, that is so often ignored.

Originally posted by camain
Eliminate Favored nation status in regards to trading. Eliminate the current trade system. Implement a FAIR trade system whereby only the amount of goods equal to 1.5X the amount exported to said country is allowed to be imported.

This would absolutely destroy our economy as low-price goods become immensely scarce and all prices go up. If you think it's bad now, wait until you implement this horrible, corporatist policy.

Originally posted by camain
Withdraw from NATO, U.N., World Bank, and every other alphabet soup organization that seeks to thwart the rights of the american people.

Wow, non-interventionism! Something I've missed since our president with the big stick.

Originally posted by camain
After a congressman, president, or judge leaves office they will be required to turn over all Documents to the FBI. The FBI shall be tasked with seeing if any laws have been broken, including bribery. All crimes shall be treated as HIGH CRIMES and all HIGH CRIMES are considered TREASON. All properties shall be confiscated, the wrong doer shall be hung on public T.V.

"Documents." Like his child's book report, a movie he rented from Blockbuster? I don't get it. And I had no idea that all high crimes were treason. You want to hang people for lying under oath? Great.

Originally posted by camain
All companies recieving monies from the government shall have NO relationship to outside forces. Several companies may work together, BUT they must have all personal within the U.S.

So I guess we're not allowed to export either? Huh?

reply to post by MegaTherion



You are misinformed--greatly--regarding income tax. First of all, it is unconstitutional to tax income. Second, it does not go towards such things as education--property tax does. Income tax supresses innovation and quality of life. Eliminate the policing of the world and there is more than enough surplus when income tax is gone. Obama is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations ( a neo-Nazi, globalist group) and McCain will simply follow in Bush's footsteps. Ron Paul was the only real hope for America.

reply to post by Johnmike

So I guess when interest rates skyrocket and banks fail because you decide that they have to be broken up, you're going to personally pay for them, right? And do you have any idea how you'd switch us off of the Federal Reserve?

America (actually most of the world) needs out of the fractional reserve banking system. The troubles America faces will come if you KEEP the federal reserve. There will be pains either way. If America abolishes the fed at least they will be on the road to recovery.

It is obvious to the world today that the Republican party is over.
they will need to return to the grass roots and build a new party.
The only people still stuck in dumbo mode is Republicans that think Mccain
has a hope to win hehe
mccain makes the perfect Republican today dumber than dumb and sticking their foot in their mouth every time it's open

And I am a Canadian who doesn't give a hoot who gets in
I am just making an observation

Republicans rather lose the election than have a statesman Like R paul

thats say a lot
they back a guy thats was a dummy all his life and is a senile old coot now
you got away with Bush he has proven to be such a disaster half your base
is defecting now.

the Republican party is disintegrating in front of you and because you were born with a club foot and retarded brain you can not vote for anything else but Republican .You are the last vestiges of the republican party
the retarded right
A Change we can believe in VS oh there will be war lots of war
out of touch out of brain out of money and just about out of time.

Remember this is from a person from another country imagine the people in America how they feel !

Originally posted by Swingarm
America (actually most of the world) needs out of the fractional reserve banking system. The troubles America faces will come if you KEEP the federal reserve. There will be pains either way. If America abolishes the fed at least they will be on the road to recovery.

I just asked how we'd abolish it, step by step, and what the alternative would be.

reply to post by Johnmike


Would you like that in triplicate? The American people first need to get behind a politician with the political will ( ex Ron Paul). As president he would do as Kennedy did with exec order 11110. We tell the bankers to pound salt. If they assassinate the president as happened to Kennedy, the # hits the fan.

The alternative is the Treasury issues the currency interest free. They spend the money into existence.

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Swingarm]

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Swingarm]

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Swingarm]

Way to not describe how you'd do any of that. Maybe you're drunk or something. You need to back currency, you need to put new bills into circulation, and best of all, you need to change the currency without its value changing massively. *Snip*

Mod Edit: Do not attack other members. Civility and Decorum is Required.

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

Terms and Conditions

[edit on 3-8-2008 by MemoryShock]

while they need to reform the SSA system, I can't get behind dismantling it.

If my mother hadn't finally gotten Social Security, I'd never have a chance to do anything with my life.

her medical expenses are upwards of $900 a month, and that's just for medicine. and while I realize that you think that if I had 30% more money in my pocket would help, I'm not so sure.

and if I did still have family [my dad and grandma both died in 2002] for her to live with/off, I don't think she'd be happy with not being at all independent.

and I mean independent in her everyday life, not in the sense of finances, because I realize that she is dependent upon the state.

but making her only son forfeit his social and educational life and the ability to marry and have children of his own, is truly cruel.

I understand that you don't feel you should help strangers.

I do feel the need to help people, even if I don't know them, because I know what it is like not to have any help when you need it, because after my dad and grandma left, it was just me versus the world, with my poor mum who worked all her life fighting the government to give ME a chance at a real life.

so if I can help someone else better themselves, I will.

I don't think there'd be enough money in the system to be effective if we made Social Security optional, but I do understand the idea of making it so those who pay in are qualified to recieve it, and those who don't pay aren't.
altho, as I said, I don't think there'd be enough money, and people would be tempted not to pay in because they don't foresee a need for it, and when it happens they'll be S.O.L.

and then what do we do with them?

I guess what I am saying is it seems like the anti-entitlement/aid people think that if they ignore people they'll just go away.

they won't. they'll suffer and their children or family will be forced into crime in order to survive, because people don't just disappear when you turn oiff the TV or close your office door.

so, one thing I'd also like to ask is, would you like to dismantle the Federal Government entirely, as you seem to want states to run independently and have almost 0 government.

if we do that, i think we will fail, or one state like california or texas will begin to gobble up poorer states and civil wars will become commonplace.

just a thought.

we would be like pre-union europe, where half of it is in ferment and poverty most of the time.

and as bad as the FDA is, I would rather not have a doctor prescribe me snake oil with poison in it.

there would be no oversight, and history shows how bad that can be- remember how they used to put heroin in children's cough medicine?

they hid it, they knew what it would do, and that's insuring repeat customers.

anyway, i gotta go.

reply to post by MegaTherion


The income tax does not pay for Police and Fire. County governments pay for that through county property Taxes.

It doesn't pay for Medicaid either, as that is a state program handled by each individual state in a different way.

It doesn't pay for roads or highways, the federal, state and local gas taxes pay for that.

Nor does the income tax pay for schools, that is handled by local levies and just the like the police, property taxes.

Our health care costs are high becuase of services like Medicare and Medicaid. When a company can charge the government for the cost of any service, they will always charge the full amount, leaving the consumer with absolutely no bargaining power. Secondly, it is against the law for anyone to be denied health care in the united states. If you show up at any Emergency room, whether you have an emergency or not, they have to treat you, they are required by law to provide you with the exact same service someone with insurance receives.

You statement "I suppose what I wonder is how do we gain from allowing industries to control prices and police themselves, because every system that is already privatized is extremely corrupt.". Is flawed at it's base. Industries do not set prices, the market does. The market is you, me and anyone else looking to exchange dollars for goods and services. If a company rises to become the largest in it's field, and attempts to price fix, a smaller one would lower prices and cut their feet out from under them. The reason you see oil companies raising prices has several factors. The largest being the value of our dollar has diminished by a large amount over the last 10 years, The second biggest is that oil companies are subsidized by tax payer money. You pay oil companies for R&D, exploratory drilling, you pay them to ship oil overseas to our war effort.

More money ends up in your pocket in a privatized system becuase you arn't paying for all the wars, foreign aid, and bankruptcy inducing social services. You said, "what I am trying to say is that we aren't getting to 'spend our money how we want' if Ma Bell/Microsoft runs everything, and charges whatever they want, what money you saved in taxes would go directly into corporate coffers", in a free market, no one would be able to "set" the price of anything. There would always be a competitor to smack it down. Movies like Brazil tend to paint privatization as a means to easily force Fascism on a society, but what is always left out of that argument is the fact that no company, or corporation can make laws. They cannot take your rights away, nor can they force you to "purchase" anything.

You also said "Here's a fun fact: in most rural regions, and those rural regions encompass a vast swath of the american landscape, the Utility Companies are de facto monopolies, and they charge whatever they want and feel no responsibility to provide reasonable tech support for their clients." I agree completely with that statement. Which is why the government should have never subsidized them in the first place. PUD's are only made possible by government intervention. For gods sake, the government is the entity that made those electrical companies a monopoly. With a free market, that could never happen.

If you have the time, I'd like you to do some research. I think it would help you to better understand the Libertarian point of view......

Try to find one, just one single example of a monopoly created created solely by market forces, throughout the entire scope of human history, go back as far as you possibly can. That means no Government intervention at all, none. Nothing. No laws, rules or regulations passed to make it easier for that company to operate. If you can find one, I would be interested in hearing about it.


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[edit on 3-8-2008 by aravoth]

[edit on 3-8-2008 by aravoth]

reply to post by MegaTherion

I am actually very interested to learn how a Ron Paul government would pay for basic services or national defense, and the answer I've heard so far about trimming the pork in the government is nice, and makes sense, but I don't see how privatization is a good idea.

It would be paid for the way it was before 1913, by repealing our regulated trade agreements, and putting tariffs back to imported goods, so that ours could compete again. The government ran with a standing army and navy, and had a surplus back then.

Way to not describe how you'd do any of that. Maybe you're drunk or something. You need to back currency, you need to put new bills into circulation, and best of all, you need to change the currency without its value changing massively. But I guess you didn't get to the actual "figuring things out" part, you just open your mouth. And sound like an idiot.

reply to post by Johnmike


Whoa fella, why so hostile? Didn't know we were in a pissing match. I agree the currency would need backing. As far as the value it would be perceived. The actual value of a dollar in reality is only pennies. The economy would improve over time and fix the "real" value.