i am a patriot. are you?

i have many different roles in my life, as do we all. but first and foremost i am and always will be a patriot.

the world is a very complex place in the early 21st century. sometimes it feels like nothing but shades of grey. a poisonous cynicism abounds. especially on a site full of people who have awakened, there is always so much confusion and so many nuances. but i believe that it's possible to crystalize things, to distill it all to its essence sometimes, by asking one or two pointed questions.

no matter what else is going on in my head, if you say to me "sir, are you a patriot?" the answer is was and always will be "hell yes".

how about you? are you a patriot?

I don't get this.

I mean it sincerely. I'm not trying to attack you.

Are you a 'patriot' or a patriot?

Are you talking about jingoistic patriotism? With the flag waving and Sousa marches and eating of the hot dogs as you light fireworks? Do you bring your patriotism out for a couple of days a year?

What are the limits for the love of your country? Have you served your country and your fellow citizen? Do you actively participate in the political process, do you vote? Are you in the military?

Do you have to be one of those to be a patriot? Do you have to be all of them?

I just don't get it.

I'm curious. What makes you a patriot?

I'm curious as well. Would you mine explaining a bit more what you mean and how you would define patriotism as it relates to Americas?

Thanks
kj

Tell where do you come from
what is your country
where is your place in this world

here is a quick test

Who was Dirty Harry
who sunk the USS Liberty
what is the first line in the song that is associated with the American sport.
what does Keating 5 mean and who was implicated with it.
what does the American flag with a gold fringe around mean





[edit on 3-8-2008 by solo1]

If one line posts were allowed I would respond with just three words...

PROTEST IS PATRIOTISM!

Originally posted by Nerdling
I don't get this.

I mean it sincerely. I'm not trying to attack you.

Are you a 'patriot' or a patriot?

Are you talking about jingoistic patriotism? With the flag waving and Sousa marches and eating of the hot dogs as you light fireworks? Do you bring your patriotism out for a couple of days a year?

What are the limits for the love of your country? Have you served your country and your fellow citizen? Do you actively participate in the political process, do you vote? Are you in the military?

no, that's a good question. in fact it's a series of good questions.

at heart, i believe that the united states is a great nation, that we are a nation of destiny. i believe we are an example and a beacon for the rest of the world.

i believe that, although americans may squabble amongst themselves over details, a true patriot wants what is best for his nation in the long run. i believe in a united world with the united states taking the leadership position.

i believe that the united states is often being threatened by outside forces, most recently communism and terrorism. these forces try to use both subterfuge and overt violence against us and must be defeated at all costs. part of being a patriot is realizing that sometimes sacrifices have to be made for the greatest good. hard choices sometimes have to be made.

on even the most complex political and military question, i think it can all be boiled down to "do you love your country and will you do what is necessary to defend and advance what your forefathers built?"

i do love the 4th of july, both for the celebrations and for the high ideals it symbolizes. i don't love jingoists. the difference between a jingoist and a patriot, i think, is that a patriot understands that it is sometimes necessary to make sacrifices for one's country whereas a jingoist just wants to march around on parade and hum the idiot tune they've been taught.

my family has a very long record of government and military service and it is still taken seriously. i've had government jobs in which i have served my country in various capacities and right now i work in politics. i don't think that it is absolutely necessary to have been in the military or worked in government service somehow to be a patriot and i have worked alongside plenty of men who are not, at heart, patriots in these jobs.

being a patriot means loving your country and understanding that, sometimes, sacrifices need to be made.

Originally posted by JesterMan
If one line posts were allowed I would respond with just three words...

PROTEST IS PATRIOTISM!

protesting can be patriotic. the soldiers who came home from vietnam and protested against the war were acting in what they believed was the best interest of their nation and they were doing so while putting themselves and their reputations at risk. this was a form of sacrifice for the sake of what they believed was their country's best interest.

they were wrong. but they were wrong in a noble fashion.

reply to post by Slothrop


Slothrop, I notice that you are new to ATS.

I just wanted to say thank you for bringing such a well thought out topic to this forum.



I too believe a patriot is not so much an objective measurement, but a measurement of the character orientation of a person, how they feel about their country, and what level of action they are taking for their country.

[edit on 3-8-2008 by Quazga]

Patriotism could never be properly defined. It is in the eye of the beholder and comes in many different forms, shapes, sizes, and colors. What may be patriotic to you may not be to me but in the end we are both patriotic in our own unique way. Yes I am patriotic but have my own way of expressing it.

USA! USA! USA!

With all due respect I believe there is a fine line between patriotism and blind allegiance.

No bid on that.












[edit on 8/3/2008 by jpm1602]

[edit on 8/3/2008 by jpm1602]

Ah but who has the answers to my questions

Originally posted by solo1
Ah but who has the answers to my questions

The voices in your head.


Wait long enough... they'll answer.

The answer to a few questions:

Who was Dirty Harry
How does Clint Eastwood become a Patriot by saying
Go ahead Make My Day!


who sunk the USS Liberty
Isreali fighters almost sank it supposedly thinking it was
an Egyptian radio relay ship in support of a MidEast a war going on at the time

what is the first line in the song that is associated with the American sport.
Take me out to the Ball Game?

what does Keating 5 mean and who was implicated with it.
I don't know the answer!

what does the American flag with a gold fringe around mean
It means a court or office is supposed to follow or is under
Admiralty Law or on a technical basis "Martial Law"

Of the 3 answers I got right, that's not bad...

FOR BEING A CANADIAN !!!!

Me thinks I've read too much AMERICAN HISTORY...

but to you Canadians on ATS I ask

Charlottetown Prince Edward Island, 1867 July 1st What happened
on that Date?


What is a Patriot ?

One who is willing to REBEL against TYRANNY of all kinds!!!!!!

I am no patriot by today's standard.

My feelings on this nation have one main factor, is the government within the Constitution.

If yes, then good, I like it.

If no, then no, I hate it.

Any government that perverts and ignores the Constitution needs to be removed. I'm a patriot in the original sense though, and there are fewer of those every year.

I am also a patriot in the original sense of the word. I support the Constitution. I love my country. But I know it isn't perfect.

I think too many times people confuse nationalism for patriotism. I don't love the government, I love the country and the Constitution.

I do not believe our country is "number one", whatever that means. All men are created equal, including all citizens of the world, and as such, should be respected.

I don't display a show of patriotism for others to see. My love for my country is something I feel, not something I show by symbols and rituals.

So, according to me, I'm a patriot. But according to some, I am not.

What I am is a taxpayer. A middle class cog in the giant machine. I'm happy where I am because I work hard for a living to provide for my family, give back to charity and a pay my taxes like the law says to do. I know that without the middle class this country would be the 'haves' and 'have-nots', essentially a third-world nation. I know that nations like India and China have economies that are on the fast track to building a middle class and there are other nations who are struggling to build a middle class structure. I also know there are nations who dream of free markets and a middle class instead of being told where to work, what to eat, how to dress, where to live by their oppressive governments. I can still walk down the street to the store in safety to pick up a few groceries or take my family out to dinner without having to worry about sectarian violence.

What I am is lucky.

Back in the good old days, patriot was a slur, and patriotism was a dirty word.

I believe in the potential of my country, but I'm disgusted and appalled by the course we've plotted. So many people confuse patriotism with a love of elected officials, or a blind devotion to the actions of a nation. This is the sort of patriotism that infects like poison and kills a nation slowly.

A good patriot loves his country first and foremost, and that's fine - but what about when the country is wrong?

"I'll never apologize for the actions of America.." - remember who said that? He considered himself a patriot...

I consider the ideals of America much more important than the country itself. The country itself is just a landmass, rocks and sticks and water - nothing special. The people are painfully average, and the political system, despite touting itself as best in the world, is corrupt and co-opted by the robber barons in industry (chiefly the petro-chemical, big pharma, and defense lobbyists).

The ideals this country espouses are very, very important, potentially world-changing in scope and principle.

The ideals (a refresher): Freedom, Justice, and Equality.

The reality (a refresher): Intolerance, bigotry, slavery, war, profiteering, lies, hypocrisy..and the list goes on.

If America(ns) lived up to the lofty aspirations of our forefathers, this would be, without a doubt, the greatest country in the world. However, we have not lived up to those aspirations. We give them a great deal of lip service, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

One need only look at the so-called Justice system to see the hypocrisy laid bare. There are thousands upon thousands of people doing 25-life for bringing cannabis into the country, and just today I read a story that a former NYC cop who prostituted a 13-year old girl will get out in 3 years. Rapists routinely do less time than street-level dealers and petty criminals. That is not justice.

We have more people in prison and on parole than either Russia or China. We have some of the most draconian laws, prosecuting victimless crimes with a feverish intensity most other countries reserve for violent offenders. The office of the former Attorney General, Ashcroft, is on record saying that the number 1 priority was to target sex toys and bongs. This came in the wake of September 11, just so we're clear...

We continue to profit from war, disease, and death, and we seem to enjoy the prospect of continuing to do so in different parts of the world.

Then there's the prejudice..oh, the prejudice - baseball has got nothing on prejudice as the national pastime. At first it was the wealthy whites turning the poor whites against the natives (the lower class had much more in common with the average native than they had in common with the new aristocracy). The wealthy were afraid that if the poor got together with the natives, then there would be a revolution, and the wealthy would find themselves cast off in rowboats and told to return to England.

Then it was the wealthy whites turning the poor whites against the blacks, then against the Chinese/Irish/Italian immigrants. It goes on and on - now the ones we collectively hate the most are the immigrants from south of the border.

It's a wonderful control mechanism to keep the lower and middle class from taking back their country from the top 5% - keep us fighting amongst ourselves and we're too busy to fight against the system; divide and conquer has never worked so well.

Point is, we have a great foundation, but the house we built is crumbling around us because it's rotten and crooked. We have hypocrisy embedded so deep into our national consciousness, it's second-nature. We don't even see it anymore, for the most part; it's become ubiquitous; just background noise. The lies that filter down through the media have never been so transparent or obvious, and still people don't seem to notice or care. They're too busy focusing on the external enemy - the boogeyman arab terrorist. Nevermind the fact that tylenol kills more people annually...

My feelings on patriotism can be pretty well summed up by the quote in my signature, the one by Einstein.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Excellent post Benevolent.

I agree with your definition of patriotism, and I hold it as well.

I love my country and my Constitution, but I do not always agree with my governments policies, foreign or otherwise.

I consider my "enemies" to be those who undermine the greatness of my nation and its Constitution, whether those enemies come from within or without.

I consider the greatness of my nation to be MORE than its being an economic powerhouse, or its being feared as a military force. The greatness of my nation is also to be seen in its character. Does it lie? Cheat? Steal? Does it extend the concept of freedom and liberty to other nations? Not only by forcing those nations to embrace OUR version of freedom and liberty, but by allowing other nations the right to choose their own destiny? Does it care for its citizens? Are the majority of our policies those which will enable the human citizens of this country to continue to improve their own circumstances and that of their children? Are we a leader in the world in peace as well as war? Do we oppose tyranny and oppression everywhere? Or only where it is profitable to do so?

I want my country to be great in all ways. Not only the easily quantifiable ones such as who has the most money and bombs. I want my country to be a beacon of character and nobility. Not opportunism and greed.

I am absolutely a patriot. But, as Benevolent said, not a nationalist. I do NOT believe patriotism means holding all the actions performed by your government on behalf of the nation as equal and always equally good.

Edit to add,

WyrdeOne, you must have been post yours while I wrote mine, but I wanted to give you a big thumbs up too. Great post.

[edit on 4-8-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

In this thread you say you're a patriot. In another thread you say you're a satanist. Do you go around telling people these things just because you think it sounds cool?