Iraq Unloading WMD Into Syria.

Originally posted by Saphronia
It's likely that the technology is being sold by the scientist of these shakey regimes.

So whats to say the scientists of the shaky regime in Syria are not selling information or supplies that may have entered the country through years of trade and other mutual transactions.

Originally posted by Saphronia

...this could be ground breaking. If they confiscated chemicals they may be able to trace them back to the source and if that source is Iraq there will be concrete proof that Saddam passed WMD's on to al-Qaida.

Then, there is the other possibility that al-Qaida has found another way to get VX. This could open up a whole new front in the war on terror. If these chemicals aren't Iraqi...whoa. We'll have an even larger problem on our hands. That's when Syria or NK could come to the fore-front because both are known to have VX production and/or technology.

The question is where did the weapons come from? Until we know that for sure, we're just guessing.

I posted that two days ago. Stop assuming I'm completely against any idea that Syrians are involved. I'm not ruling anything out, and I'm not closed to the possibility that this could be much larger than anyone suspects. We can make assumptions about where these weapons came from but we won't know for sure until the details of the test are released...if Jordan releases them. Seems like King Abdullah of Jordan is backing away from his relations with the US over that Sharon plan. It could effect whether or not we even get to look at the findings.

The king of Jordan, one of America's closest allies in the Middle East, postponed a White House meeting with U.S. President George W. Bush this week, questioning the U.S. commitment to ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Link

Originally posted by Saphronia
Seems like King Abdullah of Jordan is backing away from his relations with the US over that Sharon plan. It could effect whether or not we even get to look at the findings.
Link

Nice update for the story, it will be interesting to see what happens with this situation.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Seekerof: "There is ample evidence of movement to Syria before the war -- satellite photographs, reports on the ground of a constant stream of trucks, cars, rail traffic across the border. We simply don't know what was moved," Kay said.'

THAT'S YOUR EVIDENCE?

"We simply don't know what was moved."


LOL! Wow how totally rock-solid.


Hey, my strongest evidence so far about the fact that Saddam had no WMDs left is:

THEY HAVEN'T FOUND ANY AT ALL"

Your selective reasoning and obvious selective quoting is astounding if not bewildering. You use Dr. David Kay as your 'support' that Iraq had no WMD without even trying to grasp what he implied. Here is Dr. Kays report and what he found, and gee, with pictures also:
STATEMENT BY DAVID KAY ON THE INTERIM PROGRESS REPORT

Here is an article mentioning that Dr. Kay said he had maps.....to whom and where? Syria!
Dr. Kay Had Maps with Coordinates of WMD Hiding Places in Syria

And another clarifying his statement a bit more:
Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief

David Kay, the former head of the coalition's hunt for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, yesterday claimed that part of Saddam Hussein's secret weapons programme was hidden in Syria.

In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph, Dr Kay, who last week resigned as head of the Iraq Survey Group, said that he had uncovered evidence that unspecified materials had been moved to Syria shortly before last year's war to overthrow Saddam.

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. "But we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD programme. Precisely what went to Syria, and what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."

Obviously clarifying, but to you it equates to none; to you, not finding any significant moderate to large amounts equates to NOTHING!? Bah, your close mindedness is bewildering. You hinge your bet on Dr. Kay and yet I just clarified what Dr. Kay said, insinuated, and meant and yet you have failed to grasp what this thread is on and about: Iraq Unloading WMD Into Syria.
Then you fail to comprehend what transpired in Jordan a few weeks back....steadily spouting your rhetoric of NO WMD FOUND, and yet miss where those WMD's that were to be used in Jordan, that could have killed, speculatively, upwards of 20,000+ people, came into Jordan from Syria. Media reports previously mentioned that Syria was moving WMD's into Sudan. The King of Jordan claims that the chemical WMDs that were to be used by the terrorist group that came out of Syria, was either Sarin or VX, both of which Syria is reported and documented not to have?

You deal in absolutes and nullify possibility and coincedence(s). Those added up coincedences, which have been ongoing with the postings within this thread, are still speculatively adding up, and yet you, dealing in absolutes, can not grasp the addition that is being shown in those said mentioned coincedences. Sh_t like that gets people killed, be it in Iraq or New York City, or for the matter, anywhere else in this world, possibly including your lovely liberal Canada, and her influx of terrorist groups and affiliations....haven and nest comes to mind, and thats as reported by Canadian media sources.

Despite the degradation/degrading of the volatility of those supposed Iraq chemical weapons, due to age, they are still quite deadly and effective, and are also still listed by the UN, Russia, France, Germany, the US, Canada, and a host more other nations as UNACCOUNTED FOR, and to this day, dear Jak, they are still listed as I just mentioned!

Dr. Kay may not have found significant quantities but what Mr Kay did find, record, and insinuate is that Iraq/Saddam had everything but the "beef". Again, the world, INCLUDING Canada, knew that Saddam/Iraq had WMD's.....and even with the words of Dr. Kay, Ritter, and Blix, they ALL do not have the 100% "case closed" answer to where those "unaccounted for" WMD's are or what happened to them. Hence this thread, based on one set of coincedences and reports basing and describing Syria and Iraq's possible WMD's.

Other than your continued "denial", do you have anything constructive to add to this topic? At least when others, namely Saphronia, debate this, they debate it with logic and counter reportings.
Care to step up to the plate, in regards to Syria and possible Iraqi WMD's being moved there, and provide to the contrary, other than to spout and spew?



seekerof

[Edited on 22-4-2004 by Seekerof]

Seekerof: Syria does have its own VX and Sarin.

www.guardian.co.uk..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Link

Does Syria have chemical weapons?

Damascus is reported to have built up stockpiles of VX nerve gas and sarin with Russian help. However - if it has - it is not a signatory to the chemical weapons programme (so has not broken any treaties), there are no UN resolutions asking it to disarm (as there were against Iraq) and it has not used them (as Iraq had). It is also not alone in being suspected of possessing a chemical arsenal.

Link

Syria

Syria is believed to have actively pursued a chemical weapons capability since the early 1970s when it acquired some chemical arms from Egypt. Production of nerve agents, such as sarin, began during the mid-1980s and continued into the next decade, with development of VX reported to have begun in late 1996 at a facility outside Damascus. Another site is believed to be under construction near Aleppo. Some experts estimate a poison gas stockpile of 500 to 1,000 metric tons. Press reports link Syrian and Russian scientists on chemical weapons development and dispersal. June 1998 accounts noted that Syria has armed missiles, planes, and artillery shells with sarin. Intelligence officials have testified that Syria still depends on foreign sources for key elements of its chemical weapons effort, including precursors and equipment. Syria has not signed the Chemical Weapons Convention.

Quote by seekerof

Bah, your close mindedness is bewildering.

I'm not bewildered by it. I know exactly what agenda is behind it.

Seekerof-

www.canoe.ca...

"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons but we know from some of the interrogations of former Iraqi officials that a lot of material went to Syria before the war, including some components of Saddam's WMD (weapons of mass destruction) program,"

The significant word in that sentence is tacked on at the end: "program".

i.e. Saddam did not send weapons themselves to Syria, but he may have sent technical information about developing WMD's to Syria before the war.

I don't know why you persist with this ridiculous conspiracy theory that Iraq sent VX gas to Syria. The whole lot would be goo within 18 months of manufacture, and we know for certain that Iraq hasn't had any VX manufacturing plants since they were totally obliterated during the Gulf War... VX simply does not stay active for 12 years.

Seeker: Ayoye.

"Here is Dr. Kays report and what he found, and gee, with pictures also:
STATEMENT BY DAVID KAY ON THE INTERIM PROGRESS REPORT "

FROM YOUR LINK:

"We have not yet found stocks of weapons, but we are not yet at the point where we can say definitively either that such weapon stocks do not exist or that they existed before the war and our only task is to find where they have gone. "

BAM!

Just READ what is said in this report.

"With regard to delivery systems, the ISG team has discovered sufficient evidence to date to conclude that the Iraqi regime was committed to delivery system improvements that would have, if OIF had not occurred, dramatically breached UN restrictions placed on Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War. "

Discovered sufficient evidence to conclude that the Iraqis were commited to "delivery system improvements" that would have BREACHED UN RESTRICTIONS if the US had not invaded? What kind of a stinking load of crap is that? That's your evidence?!?!

That whole report is a joke. Look at all the assumptions and the sophistry and look at the fact THEY FOUND NOTHING.

"Those added up coincedences, which have been ongoing with the postings within this thread, are still speculatively adding up, and yet you, dealing in absolutes, can not grasp the addition that is being shown in those said mentioned coincedences. Sh_t like that gets people killed, be it in Iraq or New York City, or for the matter, anywhere else in this world, possibly including your lovely liberal Canada, and her influx of terrorist groups and affiliations....haven and nest comes to mind, and thats as reported by Canadian media sources."

Let's stick to the subject instead of making lame insults about our respective countries, m'kay?

"Despite the degradation/degrading of the volatility of those supposed Iraq chemical weapons, due to age, they are still quite deadly and effective, and are also still listed by the UN, Russia, France, Germany, the US, Canada, and a host more other nations as UNACCOUNTED FOR, and to this day, dear Jak, they are still listed as I just mentioned!"

Okay, does "Unaccounted For" mean the same thing as "FOUND"?! If it's unaccounted for, you're saying, that means it's THERE. It exists. Wha?! That flies in the face of logic. Did the USA invade Iraq because it's WMD were unaccounted for, because I was under the distinct impression it was due to IMMINENT THREAT.

"Dr. Kay may not have found significant quantities but what Mr Kay did find, record, and insinuate is that Iraq/Saddam had everything but the "beef"."

Again, I was under the impression that Dr. Kay found NOTHING CONCRETE, as opposed to your "he may not have found significant quantities". If by significant quantities you mean nothing, then yes I agree.

"Other than your continued "denial", do you have anything constructive to add to this topic? At least when others, namely Saphronia, debate this, they debate it with logic and counter reportings."

Um, read above. I don't expect you to grasp all the complexities of my argument (it's based a lot on common sense), but I'm sure it will occur to you that you're in error.

jako

From Resolution 1441

Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred and fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,

No one can argue "oh it was just components". He wasn't supposed to have components. Just by trying to reconstitute long-range delivery systems and possessing components to restart a chemical weapon program the country was in breech of 1441. The illegal al-samoud wasn't disclosed until the inspectors were in Iraq...and who helped Iraq perfect the al-samoud? The same people that helped Syria with their chemical weapons program...the Russians. BIG THINGS.


Where did al-Qaida get the chemical weapons for the foiled attack in Jordan?

some info that is scattered throughout this thread:

--Throughout Feb and March 2003 trucks from Iraq went over the border into Syria.

--The foiled attack in Jordan was lead and planned by the al-Qaida leader in Iraq.

--The chemicals that al-Qaida planned to use in the attack on Jordan came into Jordan from Syria.

Jak, isn't it possible that the chemical weapons captured in Jordan came from Iraq?

Saphronia: "Where did al-Qaida get the chemical weapons for the foiled attack in Jordan?

some info that is scattered throughout this thread:

--Throughout Feb and March 2003 trucks from Iraq went over the border into Syria.

--The foiled attack in Jordan was lead and planned by the al-Qaida leader in Iraq.

--The chemicals that al-Qaida planned to use in the attack on Jordan came into Jordan from Syria.

Jak, isn't it possible that the chemical weapons captured in Jordan came from Iraq? "

Yeah, sure, it's POSSIBLE. Anything's possible.

But it's all conjecture. Trucks went across the border from Iraq into Syria? What? Do trucks NEVER go over the border between these two countries unless it's full of nerve gas?

"The foiled attack in Jordan was lead and planned by the al-Qaida leader in Iraq. "

Who is the "al-Qaeda leader" in Iraq and where did you find this info?

"The chemicals that al-Qaida planned to use in the attack on Jordan came into Jordan from Syria. "

If you look at these desperate for a reason to say that there ARE wmds in Syria from Iraq, then yes, you can cliam that it's evidence. Vague evidence. These things just cannot be hidden under a frickin shrub.

The world's most powerful intel agencies were checking out this stuff for YEARS, if there was WMDs they would have been found. ESPECIALLY now that Saddam is captured and has been interrogated.


jako

OMG! this is only what we're talking about...how are you participating if you don't even know what we're discussing?

The story broke on April 14, 2004

Al-Qaida Planned Chemical Bomb Attack


Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi's face is all over the news.

Profile: Abu-Musab al-Zaqawi

Lil suggestion: do some research, cuz. you swear that americans are brainwashed and ignorant to world events but you havin a lil trouble keepin up yaself.

Not all Iraqi defectors are liars. The only defectors publicized in the press and on this board, are ones who may have provided false testimony, but there remains a core group of defectors who you have not heard from.

A top Iraqi general who switched sides during the war has backed Washington's claims that Syria has been giving refuge to members of Saddam Hussein's regime.
General Ali al-Jajjawi - former Republican Guard commander in the northern city of Mosul - said Saddam's Baath Party deputy Izzat Ibrahim and other top figures had fled to Syria shortly before the city fell last Friday.

This is an older dispatch from April 14, 2003, but none of Mr. Ali al-Jajjawi's testimony has been brought under scrutiny. Although the good general did not attest to a Syria/Iraq WMD transaction, he did reinforce the fact that Syria was a refuge for high level Iraqi's. This man was not a low level military commander but commander of the Republican Guard and is thus more qualified to know the inner workings of the regime. History has shown that transient scientists will continue their research after any war. German scientists helped both the Russian and American war machines after World War 2, and currently there exists a huge fear that Russian scientists may be freelancing for terrorists. These scientists have no country but they have intelligence, and that intelligence is highly prized by their Baathist neighbor in Syria. Even if nothing lies buried under the Beeka valley, Iraqi scientists do reside in Syria and in all reality arent working on gardens. Their continued research goes straight to the heart of the Syrian WMD development, and as shown by the foiled attack in Syria , the research is certainly dangerous. Why won't Bashar publicly acknowledge that his country has a WMD arsenal?

Link

[Edited on 24-4-2004 by Agent47]

A47: That article is over a year old. Since the start of the war 48/55 of the most wanted are captured, killed, or have surrendered in Iraq. So I supposed the others were allowed to stay in Syria even though Uday and Qusay were deported back to Iraq.

Iraq most wanted: Update.

Saddam's sons had fled to Syria

Generals plead for more help securing the vast Iraqi border region

Show me an exile who isn't working in his own-self interest and we'll put him on display. But that guy was just wrong when more than 87% of the most wanted were still in Iraq.

Originally posted by Saphronia
A47: That article is over a year old. But that guy was just wrong when more than 87% of the most wanted were still in Iraq.

I noted it was a year old but thats not the main point. How was the general wrong if he testified to Iraqi personnel fleeing into Syria. Just because they have been caught doesnt mean they didnt flee. They still fled to Syria and even if they returned to Iraq and were captured, that doesnt negate the prior actions. If Iraqi generals can escape to Syria, why cant their WMD scientists? And once again, why wont Bashar simply acknowledge his WMD?

If this stuff is true, do u guys think that the gov't knows?
We do have Saddam after all, he must have knowledge of any deals between Iraq and Syria.

Originally posted by TheEXone
If this stuff is true, do u guys think that the gov't knows?
We do have Saddam after all, he must have knowledge of any deals between Iraq and Syria.

The NSA and CIA probably know more about these transactions than you would care to know. The only problem is that its an election year, and if they went public with the info the response could be difficult to gauge. On top of that they might not want to compromise assets they have within Syria. Believe me, if I can dig up this info, the intelligence community has enough info to fill up a library.

Lets see if we didn't find anything.

"KARBALA, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. troops have found 11 mobile laboratories buried south of Baghdad that are capable of biological and chemical uses, a U.S. general said Monday.

There were no chemical or biological weapons with the containerized labs, which measure 20 feet square. But soldiers recovered "about 1,000 pounds" of documents from inside the labs, and the United States will examine those papers further, said Brig. Gen. Benjamin Freakley of the Army's 101st Airborne Division.

"Initial reports indicate that this is clearly a case of denial and deception on the part of the Iraqi government," Freakley told CNN's Ryan Chilcote. "These chemical labs are present, and now we just have to determine what in fact they were really being used for."

Excerpt taken from.
www.cnn.com...

"Possible evidence of Iraqi deception has been uncovered with the discovery of 11 mobile laboratories capable of biological and chemical uses buried south of Baghdad, a U.S. general said, according to CNN."

Excerpt taken from.
www.worldnetdaily.com...


"BAGHDAD, Iraq � U.S. Marines may have found weapons-grade plutonium in a massive underground facility discovered beneath Iraq's Al Tuwaitha nuclear complex, Fox News confirmed Friday.
Coalition forces are investigating a stash of radioactive material found at the site south of Baghdad, an embedded reporter, Carl Prine of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, first told Fox News on Thursday."

Excerpts taken from.
www.foxnews.com...

Remember the middle east is a desert, lots of places to hide WMD along with other evidence and lots of ways to smuggle WMD to other countries to sell them. Also the fact that Saddam kept buying time to let weapons inspectors in many factories can tell you he wasn't trying to hide cheese and milk.
The fact is that we have found that they had hid some of the labs used to make WMD, containers and other stuff and that probably most of the WMD were sold to Syria, other countries and even possibly to terrorists.


[Edited on 25-4-2004 by Muaddib]

Newsflash....just ran across this article
SUDAN ORDERS SYRIAN WMD OUT OF COUNTRY

LONDON [MENL] -- Sudan has ordered the removal of Syrian missiles and weapons of mass destruction out of the African country.

Arab diplomatic and Sudanese government sources said the regime of Sudanese President Omar Bashir has ordered that Syria remove its Scud C and Scud D medium-range ballistic missiles as well as components for chemical weapons stored in warehouses in Khartoum. The sources said the Sudanese demand was issued after the Defense Ministry and Interior Ministry confirmed a report published earlier this month that Syria has been secretly flying Scud-class missiles and WMD components to Khartoum.

seekerof

From this, it sure sounds as if its getting a little too hot in the Kitchen for some. No one wants to get caught holding the hot potato? Its only a matter of time if the pressure is unrelenting.

I wonder what will happen when they find all of them?

Think that anyone will ever admit they were wrong about doubting their exisitence?

One thing to consider that I am not sure if it has been raised or not. If you bury something in the desert, it is quite easy to make any evidence of burying something there disappear. Just give it a few hours and the winds and shifting sands will take care of any evidence for you.

Then it simply becomes a matter of eliminating those who buried it, to ensure they don't reveal it. Fortunately the sands can take care of the evidence as well.