Indian Akula II attack submarine

since we are talking about susbs more in general - what ever happened to the Narwhal? she uses an S5G natural convection reactor - how successful is this concept?

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Harlequin,

I wanted to thank you for the photo of the propellor under cavitation...great photo.

Orange,

great to see your still around these parts. If you want more pictures of cavitation i have loads. I used to work in a propeller testing facility, where we tested all sorts of wierd and wonderful designs to see under what conditions they would cavitatate.

I even have pictures of the propeller from Brunel's 'Great Britain' (one of the first ocean going prop driven vessels) that we tested for a tv programme once.

P.A.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Thank you for conviently leaving out the source.

And what is your source type 093 is anything but several decades behind state of the art ? You have nothing but wishful speculation.

Cast aspersions on me all you want. Nobody in their right mind thinks a type 093 is anywhere as capable as a modern western SSN. Could it be more advanced than originally estimated, of course. But not orders of magnitude as you suggested when questioning the validity of my statement that an Akula II is more advanced than a Shang.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Considering the recent showings of submarines against the US, I very much doubt your statement like your own "estimate" based on "expert" opinion to hold any weight

How many times do people need to be told there are rules of engagement in such exercises. ? You're getting a sanitized unclassified press release. If you're referring to the Gotland, there is no contradiction. It's not an SSN like the Shang. AIP subs are a different ball game. And last I checked, Sweden is considered a western nation.

Have you ever set foot onboard a nuclear submarine? Seen one in real life? I doubt it. I've forgotten more about them than you'll ever know. Your opinion holds zero weight. I stand by my earlier comment - against a modern western SSN, type 093 doesn't have a chance.


[edit on 5-8-2008 by Schaden]

Originally posted by SchadenAnd what is your source type 093 is anything but several decades behind state of the art ?

You mean that Naval War College Review I posted previously? Which is atleast published in the SAME century as ours!!!



Have a nice read.

Cast aspersions on me all you want.

I proved that what you have used is completely based on incorrect and outdated information.

You posted that graph intentionally knowing that it was based on outdated information and try to hide it through a tinypic link. You claimed that are military enthusiast website had "expert" opinions and you continunlly refer to one statement which is outdated and based on ESTIMATES made when the submarine was not even seen let alone spotted.

I have previous above that the statement in which it is compared to a Victor III was made because it was thought the submarine would have heavy influence from the Russian shipyeard which designed the Victor III.

If you're referring to the Gotland, there is no contradiction. It's not an SSN like the Shang. AIP subs are a different ball game.

Or recently the Song class which the Americans were unable to detect either, or the Australian submarine. I doubt all the American sabre rattling during the cold war held in truth about their superior capability

I've forgotten more about them than you'll ever know.

I doubt you have ever left your computer let alone set foot on a submarine.

Your opinion previously stated means nothing because you do not know anything about submarines and your constant use of outdated information to claim it just shows how desperate you are in the discussion to try and convince people that "hoppyist" are someone experts in the field of military equipment

Originally posted by chinawhite
You posted that graph intentionally knowing that it was based on outdated information and try to hide it through a tinypic link.

Once again, casting aspersions. I think it is you that has the agenda. That pic has been sitting on my hd for years. Open your eyes. It labels the Virgina class "NSSN". It obviously predates the launch of that boat.

You're repeating the same thing over and over - "The type 093 is much better than we think." You have nothing to support that fantasy.

Or recently the Song class which the Americans were unable to detect either, or the Australian submarine.

I said it wouldn't stand a chance against another modern western SSN and you bring up a song submarine surfacing near the USS Kitty Hawk ? That's an aircraft carrier. It has no relevance to my statement.

I doubt all the American sabre rattling during the cold war held in truth about their superior capability.

Yep, US submarines are just paper tigers. You're getting desperate now.

I doubt you have ever left your computer let alone set foot on a submarine.

you do not know anything about submarines

I'll repeat myself. I've forgotten more about submarines than you'll ever know. Carry on.

Originally posted by Schaden
It obviously predates the launch of that boat.

Bingo, you answered your own question. The graph on that picture PRE-DATES any of the so called information we now have on the 093 submarine. Its design, equipment and even the basic general charateristics are wrong, hence the reason why the ONI classification is inaccurate

I said it wouldn't stand a chance against another modern western SSN and you bring up a song submarine surfacing near the USS Kitty Hawk ?

I was replying to the statement "It would be detected and sunk before it knew what happened. " and hence my reference to the Song submarine which re-enforces the idea that it wouldn't be detected let alone "sunk" by the Americans

Yep, US submarines are just paper tigers.

You're getting desperate now.

Desperate was well past when you begun quoting hoppyist and claiming them to be experts in the field

I'll repeat myself. I've forgotten more about submarines than you'll ever know. Carry on.

I'm not familar with American military insignia but if they are genuine it blows my mind to think of the lack of qualifications the US submarine fleet have. Are you even aware of what a 093 submarine looks like?.

If you are a genuine sailor then why arent you able to answer a simple question such as "whats makes it so advanced? " why is the Han less advanced than the Akula which is simple enough

Apprantly you can buy medals although it would be incredibly inconsiderate to accuse you of doing so
www.usmedals.com...

Originally posted by Schaden
You're repeating the same thing over and over - "The type 093 is much better than we think."

I mentioned it before which you conviently left out again. The Naval War College Review ring any bells?

quote from me
"You mean that Naval War College Review I posted previously? Which is atleast published in the SAME century as ours!!! "

Originally posted by chinawhite
I was replying to the statement "It would be detected and sunk before it knew what happened. " and hence my reference to the Song submarine which re-enforces the idea that it wouldn't be detected let alone "sunk" by the Americans

Remember, my statement was in the context of an SSN vs SSN encounter.
An old song class sub broaching next to a soon to be decommissioned CV has no relevancy to the hypothetical match up I described.

Originally posted by chinawhiteIf you are a genuine sailor then why arent you able to answer a simple question such as "whats makes it so advanced? " why is the Han less advanced than the Akula which is simple enough

I have no obligation to you! I've said as much about submarine technical details as I feel comfortable with. I'm under security oaths.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Apprantly you can buy medals although it would be incredibly inconsiderate to accuse you of doing so
www.usmedals.com...

You don't outright accuse me but leave the insinuation. Face it. In the internet vernacular, you got owned sir.

I already conceded the type 093 maybe better than originally estimated. Yes it's got a different shaped hull than a Victor III. If you want to run with that and assert parity with an Akula II (Russia's fastest, quietest, most modern operating SSN) or a 688, that's fine by me. I will disagree with you.

This bickering is getting old. Let's hope we never find out who is right, because SSN vs SSN means another World War.

Originally posted by Schaden
Remember, my statement was in the context of an SSN vs SSN encounter.
An old song class sub broaching next to a soon to be decommissioned CV has no relevancy to the hypothetical match up I described.

Well its unfair to compare two submarines used and optimsed for different roles if that was the senario you proposed. Anyhow the Song surfaced during a important military exercise between the American and Japanese navies with their full complement of escorts including LA class submarines. Not to shabby for something you consider a "old" submarine even through the design is technically new

I have no obligation to you! I've said as much about submarine technical details as I feel comfortable with.

What I'm asking is for OPEN DOMAIN information which is freely aviable off GS or any of the other sites you fequent. Nothing secret and very easily answered

You don't outright accuse me but leave the insinuation.

Face it. In the internet vernacular, you got owned sir.

Not really. If I claimed you weren't a sailor then in that case I would have the pie on my face. I said i DOUBTED whether ou were a sailor and did not make a statement stating to claim whether you were a sailor or not. Its the difference between a verbal and written agreement in that sense

If you want to run with that and assert parity with an Akula II (Russia's fastest, quietest, most modern operating SSN) or a 688

Where have I ever stated that the 093 is equal to the LA or Akula?. You have assumed that I thought it was its equal. What I have been contesting this whole time is the merit of whether the ONI original estimate is valid or not. If you asked for my opinion, I dont believe the 093 is equal to the Akula simply based on its reported radiated noise level which is approaching a early LA class.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Well its unfair to compare two submarines used and optimsed for different roles if that was the senario you proposed. Anyhow the Song surfaced during a important military exercise between the American and Japanese navies with their full complement of escorts including LA class submarines.

Unfair ? What are you talking about ? The only scenario I proposed was an SSN vs SSN engagement. You're making too much of the Song incident. You have no idea if there were any American escort submarines in the vicinity, or what their tasking was during that exercise.

Surfacing near a CV is not good submarine operating procedure. Maybe it had a primary coolant leak ? It's not like we'd ever know with the heavy handed state censorship of Chinese media. I've seen others speculate the Song may have been lying in wait of the path of the CV. If it was dead in the water, nothing short of active sonar could detect it. Simply put, you're trying to extrapolate too much from that encounter.

Not really. If I claimed you weren't a sailor then in that case I would have the pie on my face. I said i DOUBTED whether ou were a sailor and did not make a statement stating to claim whether you were a sailor or not. Its the difference between a verbal and written agreement in that sense

Spin it all you like. You said you doubted I'd ever set foot on a submarine along with a personal attack about never leaving my computer. And then you said "I do not know anything about submarines". What a joke. For the last time, I've forgotten more about submarines than an armchair enthusiast, such as yourself, would ever know. I've spent years of my life operating them. You read about them on the internet.

Where have I ever stated that the 093 is equal to the LA or Akula?. You have assumed that I thought it was its equal.

You questioned my assertion that an Akula II is more advanced than a type 093. Simple deductive reasoning.

If you asked for my opinion, I dont believe the 093 is equal to the Akula simply based on its reported radiated noise level which is approaching a early LA class.

Oh boy. I post a quote stating the Shang is approaching an early LA class, and you dismiss it as an enthusiast blog. And now come to find you agree with its assessment.

I'll re-summarize my position:

Virginia/Seawolf>>>688i>Akula II>688>Akula>Shang>>>>Han

That's my last reply to you, landlubber.

Originally posted by Schaden
Surfacing near a CV is not good submarine operating procedure.

For obvious reasons it did not position itself to attack the carrier. The main point was to point out that the song made it within firing range of the CTF and withing firing range of its torpedos and obviously its Anti-ship missiles. And your suggesting that it was waiting for the carrier to float pass?. On my last check the Song was not a AIP submarine and the exercise was done in vast stretch of sea. If it was a coincedent then it would have to be one of the biggest in the history. The carrier was able to rumble pass in the near vicinity of the submarine.? Still does not explain why the USN has trouble catching other submarines

Spin it all you like.

If I were to spin it, it wouldn't be like that. Nothing is spun because thats how the original story played out.

You questioned my assertion that an Akula II is more advanced than a type 093.

No, I questioned why you thought it was better. I did not challenge your assertion but questioned why you did which you could not answer

I post a quote stating the Shang is approaching an early LA class, and you dismiss it as an enthusiast blog.

I dismissed your assertion that it was a expert site not the actual comparison he made. Clear difference and I made that point quite a few times

mud slinging aside..

Hey Schaden,
Which class(es) of boat(s) did you serve/work on?

and you Orangetom?

Thanks in advance

Originally posted by Schaden

Virginia/Seawolf>>>688i>Akula II>688>Akula>Shang>>>>Han

hmm..

I'm not so sure about that.. But then again.. its all theories and bar chatter amongst sailors and admirals .. and mind you. I'm talking about bars including those in BangorWA, Servodvinsk, HMNB Clyde, and perhaps Sanya Hainan.

Could you inject the Servodvinsk, Swiftsure, Astute, Rubis, Barracuda classes into that hierarchy?
interested on your take on those boats..

orange doesn`t serve on boats - he just builds and services them

reply to post by Harlequin


and thats why I said 'serve/work'

Originally posted by Harlequin
orange doesn`t serve on boats - he just builds and services them

Daedalus,

Harlequin is correct. I work at this place here at this link.

www.nn.northropgrumman.com...

I have however worked on the Sturgeon class boats...the olde 16 tube boomers, all the 688 class boats built here and also the Virginias now under construction.

Currently working in Nimitz class carrriers. However I dont really care for carrier work. Submarines have always been in my blood and I prefer that kind of work much better. You can walk yourself to death on a carrier. And dont forget anything...you will have to walk all the way back to get it....and then all the way back to your job. You can wear out shoe leather quickly working an aircraft carrier.
Once in awhile I get to make a tool room run to get certain tools and visit the tool room in the sheds where the Virginias are under construction....its great to see them being built. I miss working on them. It was hard work. So can be carrriers for all that matter...but I just got more personal satisfaction working on the Submarines. I guess you could say it is a bit more challanging working in such close confines. It can really put your grit to the test. Can you work the job or will the job/task..work you?? That sort of thing or challange.

Since this boat is no longer in service I will narrate another collision story similar to the photos of the USS San Francisco that Harlequin posted on page 1 of this thread.

Years ago...I worked on the overhaul of the USS Nathaneal Green. As I recall the hull number was 636. This was a very long and involved overhaul and It took alot of dedicated work to get her back out to sea. A few years later she too hit an underwater obstacle and returned here to drydock.
There was a significant gash on the bottom near the aft mud tank and going back twords the rudder. Much to my surprise rather than repair her they opted to cut out the missle tube section and then drag the foreward and aft sections together and reweld it.
But then again ..new boomers of the Ohio class were coming on line..and under decomissioning rules of the current treatys...the missle tube sections were to be removed and cut up. Which is what they did.
It was sad to see her in such condition having remembered all the hard work we did to get her ready for sea again. Same thing with the USS San Francisco.
YOu can see her in the shortened condition in this photo here next to a 688 class boat.

en.wikipedia.org...(SSBN-636)

I was not aware untill this article that they had cut of the sail structure and made a monument out of her.

Schaden...thanks for the view of your salad bar. Whenever I see a navy uniform...the dolphins immediately stand out to me having worked on the boats for years and also knowing a bit about the rigors one must endure/master to earn them.

Gentlemen...

all this pubescent bickering ....to quote the mods ...is not helping the quality of the threads.
I too have certain security informations for which in certain arenas I will not speak. On the other hand I know intimately that there are real people/sailors serving on these boats whose lives are at risk daily..these are real people..with real familys and real responsibilitys/obligations. Hence there are certain areas and topics...which I will not cover even though I see certain problems and even errors in some posts.

Schaden's bona fides are not in issue with me having been around submariners for a number of years and having read certain tell tails in his previous posts. It is the same with some others who have served on boats and posted on these threads. There are certain tell tales known by those associated with the trade or tradecraft if you like.

Nonetheless ..this pubescent type bickering is not helping the quality of the threads. I encourage all of us to post to a higher standard here on ATS/BTS....for reasons of basic decency/civility and to improve the quality of the boards.

Gentlemen...
As you were...
and start your engines,

Orangetom

[edit on 6-8-2008 by orangetom1999]

reply to post by Schaden


i must disagree with your ability line:

Virginia/Seawolf>>>688i>Akula II>688>Akula>Shang>>>>Han

as far as i remember - the 688`s were built to counter the Alpha , which in turn was replaced by the akula , which lead to the 688i which lead to the akula II and finally we have the virginia`s and seawolf (and the best teh Astute but i would say that woudln`t i )


Astute>>Virginia/Seawolf>>AkulaII>688i>Akula>688>Alpha> the rest of the planet


but , any sub is only as good as its crew;


as an aside - i do think USN ASW work is pretty darn poor nowadays , they spend virtually no time learning that trade (and sadly the ASW boys are looked down upon) than they used to years ago.

its all well and good having the toys - but unless you know what you listening for then its pointless.

Originally posted by Harlequin
since we are talking about susbs more in general - what ever happened to the Narwhal? she uses an S5G natural convection reactor - how successful is this concept?

The Narwhal is long since gone but some of her technological advances live on in submarine designs, some others were never to be repeated. As for the S5G, it was certainly a successful venture.

Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by orangetom1999

 

they decrease the amount of containment rods to increase the reaction process - standard procedure on nuclear reactors - unless the US has somehow managed to not use graphite rods for control - which would be a first on teh entire planet really (because how else would you control the neutron emissions in the event of a scram)

Are you familiar with how the MARF reactor worked? It didn't have control rods, per se.

AS a current submariner on a USN SSN I find this thread quite humorous. I can't really blame anyone as most of the information you are bickering about is classified. Id be willing to bet orange helped build my boat.