TERRORISM: Britons Allege Guantanamo Torture and Human Rights Abuse

Just skimmed the post

sorry if anyone else has said it but these people are not "britons"

If you leave my country to fight for a foreign power we call that treason.

You forfit the right to be called a briton and you lose your passport.

It might escape a few peoples notice but we - the UK still have the death penalty -

For - Arson in a naval dockyard and TREASON

These people do not warrant my sympathy in any form.

Good sentiments, SabbyJ. Good to hear an opinion from the 'other side of the pond', as it were.

After rereading my last post, I'd like to clarify something--some of my comments could be construed as bashing the UK legal system. Honestly, I don't know enough about it overall to criticize. The one fact I do know was the "no executions" bit that I referred to. This I would complain about were it implemented in our system as well. Personally, I think that even the US doesn't do enough of this. Some people are quite simply unredeemable, and can serve no further purpose to society. I'm tired of seeing my tax dollars pay for these wastes for the rest of their lives. Bullets are comparitively cheap, as are lethal injection shots. Again, good info from you as well, Silk. I wasn't aware of the executable offenses allowed as such.

Wow, Lampyr., you really done some homework on this one! That does lay out the Geneva conventions pretty clearly. As well, I hadn't thought of the vaccinations, antibiotics, etc. being the aforementioned shots. This would seem to be the most obvious answer. (Maybe that's why I overlooked it? )

Necro99--"Work will set you free?" Come on, man! There's no comparison here. If we were herding up civillians in boxcars, working them to death, conducting inhumane experiments with no medical purpose, and staging mass gassing or incenerations I could see it. Fortunately, there are no ovens in Guantonamo, nor any stray cans of Zyklon rattling around. Apples and oranges.

As for international laws, let's face it--they are, as Lampyr. pointed out, toothless. The UN doesn't have the cojones to back up their own resolutions, which is one of the reasons we got in this mess in the first place. Most of the time, it is left up to individual states to take such action as they see prudent. A prime example would be the (highly unexpected!) joint American/French intervention in Haiti currently. (Which is getting slagged on too. ) Where was the UN then? Oh...I guess maybe it was Syria's turn to head the UNHRC? Bra-vo. Where's the UN involvement in Iraq? They split after their HQ was bombed, and have only recently returned to assist in drafting the new constitution.

The UN has devolved into nothing more than a multinational debate society, most of whom's members use it only as a platform to attempt accomplishment of diplomatic goals due to the fact that they lack the legitimacy to bring about their agenda in any other manner. IMO, too much voice has been given to those with nothing that needs to be said. NWO, anyone?

The new EU constitution worries me. I can't help but wonder if it will all work when it kicks in and suddenly everyone's legal system starts getting trumped by it. I think a lot of people will be pretty angry. For example--will pot suddenly be declared illegal in the Netherlands?

[Edited on 14-3-2004 by Q]

I wonder what type of legal action the family of Daniel Pearl has recourse to? I wonder if he was given an apple to eat before his murder?

john

Originally posted by jsobecky
I wonder what type of legal action the family of Daniel Pearl has recourse to? I wonder if he was given an apple to eat before his murder?

john

So you are condemning them without questioning perhaps that they are innocent? If that is the case then all people of all ethnicities and religious backgrounds should be incarcerated immediately due to the various wrongdoings each group has committed. There would be nobody left outside a jail cell.

The argument 'they did it so we can too' is about as juvenile as it gets.

Noone is suggesting anyone should feel sorry for these people, noone is suggesting they are deserving of our sympathy. But breaking international Laws and such Cornerstone Articles as the Geneva Convention in the name of Liberty is about as ironic as it gets.

Noone says a murderer deserves sympathy, but they do deserve proper treatment by the legal system. Any less and we are throwing away some of the very foundations of free society.

Originally posted by heelstone

So you are condemning them without questioning perhaps that they are innocent? If that is the case then all people of all ethnicities and religious backgrounds should be incarcerated immediately due to the various wrongdoings each group has committed. There would be nobody left outside a jail cell.

_____________________________________

I went back and re-read my post several times and did not see where I was condemning anyone. Perhaps you could point it out to me.

I find it simply amazing that there are those who are so ready and willing to pounce on the actions of the US when it comes to dealing with terrorism. It almost seems that their concern for the fair treatment of the terrorists is only second to their hatred for the US. I just don't understand this Patty Hearst syndrome; I never will.

john

Originally posted by Kano
The argument 'they did it so we can too' is about as juvenile as it gets.

Noone is suggesting anyone should feel sorry for these people, noone is suggesting they are deserving of our sympathy. But breaking international Laws and such Cornerstone Articles as the Geneva Convention in the name of Liberty is about as ironic as it gets.

Noone says a murderer deserves sympathy, but they do deserve proper treatment by the legal system. Any less and we are throwing away some of the very foundations of free society.

_____________________________

Muslim detainees at Gitmo were given prayer mats so that they could practice their faith. They were also fed meals that took into account their culture and religion. I'd say that was pretty fair treatment.

I wonder if Daniel Pearl was allowed to make his peace with his maker before his throat was slit on video camera and the video sent to his pregnant wife?

You won't get any sympathy from me as far as they are concerned. They only scream International Law when it applies to their own treatment. Let them form a nation state and agree to follow rules of International Law. Then we can talk about irony.

john

Sorry, people...... I understand how unpopular and antiquated it is to still care for ones country and homeland, but I just cant put that one little instance of ultimate hatred we all experienced acouple years ago out of my mind.
The poor detainees. I hope they never have to choose between plunging to their demise or being burned alive by jet fuel.
We could treat them ten times worse and it still would be better treatment than our people would recieve in similiar circumstances. I have no forgiveness in my heart for swine.

So you people who condone this kind of thing don't feel that the 12,000+ civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq at the hands of the U.S. military isn't enough? What about the hundreds of thousands of those civilians injured? And what about the hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers along with an even greater number wounded from those two countries? Is that enough for the 2700 or so lives lost on 9/11/01 here in the United States or do you need more suffering to sate your anger? From the statistics, the price of those American lives has been repaid many, many times over again and you still want more.

Originally posted by heelstone
So you people who condone this kind of thing don't feel that the 12,000+ civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq at the hands of the U.S. military isn't enough? What about the hundreds of thousands of those civilians injured? And what about the hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers along with an even greater number wounded from those two countries? Is that enough for the 2700 or so lives lost on 9/11/01 here in the United States or do you need more suffering to sate your anger? From the statistics, the price of those American lives has been repaid many, many times over again and you still want more.

__________________________________

What you are saying is false, and you know it. Sheer emotionalism and sensationalism on your part cannot twist my words to say what you want them to mean. Nowhere did I condone the murder of civilians. We are talking about the treatment of the detainees here.

You can apologize for and sympathize with the terrorist murderers all you want. I suggest you go live with them. See how the Taliban treated the women in Afghanistan. See how Hussein treated his own people. And then come back and whine about how we need to make nicey-nice with them. You'll get the same response from me.

Let me ask you, point blank: do you sympathize with the terrorists? A simple yes or no will do.

The problem is that too many people forget too easily what was done to our country on 9/11. We are supposed to count casualities and make sure we don't get a higher score than they do, in your opinion.

Yes, I want more. How much more? Till every one of those scumbag terrorist murderers is dead, that's how much more.

john

Originally posted by jsobecky
Yes, I want more. How much more? Till every one of those scumbag terrorist murderers is dead, that's how much more.

john

Would you torture innocent people just to kill all of the "terrorists". And I don't want you to come back with the lame argument of "Well they are torturing and killing our innocent people." Answer that one. And if the answer is yes, how many innocent people do you propose we go through just to get rid of terrorism?

The main problem of all of this is not that some "evil vile disgusting terrorist" are getting abused and terribly humiliated and being treated like less of a human. It's that a human is being treated like this.

"But Pearl was...." that line is tired. John, you are a reasonably intelligent guy, but are you actually justifying one wrong with another wrong? They did do serious wrong things to that guy. Noone is denying that. But do we retaliate in that way? I don't think we should. It goes against basic human dignity. If what happened to these people is true, then both sides are wrong. You cannot justify the treatment unless you are heartless person who thrives on nothing but primative urges.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by heelstone
See how the Taliban treated the women in Afghanistan. See how Hussein treated his own people. And then come back and whine about how we need to make nicey-nice with them. You'll get the same response from me.

hmmm...yes and let's not point out the irony here of the amount of accusations of US soldiers raping Iraqi women and a tad too trigger happy when someone's holding some foil with a sandwich inside.

I'm sure it's all worth it to get that small number of terrorists though.

Originally posted by OXmanK

Originally posted by jsobecky
Yes, I want more. How much more? Till every one of those scumbag terrorist murderers is dead, that's how much more.

john

Would you torture innocent people just to kill all of the "terrorists". And I don't want you to come back with the lame argument of "Well they are torturing and killing our innocent people." Answer that one. And if the answer is yes, how many innocent people do you propose we go through just to get rid of terrorism?

____________________________________

No, I would probably not knowingly torture innocents, but it is a fact of war that innocents do get hurt. Especially when cowardly terrorist scumbags hide in schools and hospitals.

Let me ask you this: if torture of an innocent would have prevented 9/11 or 3/11, would you condone it?

_______________________________

The main problem of all of this is not that some "evil vile disgusting terrorist" are getting abused and terribly humiliated and being treated like less of a human. It's that a human is being treated like this.

________________________________

You can call them human beings to try and justify their acts of murder. It won't wash.

In other words, you can't polish a turd.
_________________________________

"But Pearl was...." that line is tired. John, you are a reasonably intelligent guy, but are you actually justifying one wrong with another wrong?

__________________________________

The line is tired because you want to forget that it ever happened. You would rather focus on the poor, human being terrorists getting their milk and cookies at bedtime.

And yes, I can justify it. You call it using one wrong to justify another. That's one way of putting it. I call it fighting fire with fire.
____________________________________
They did do serious wrong things to that guy. Noone is denying that. But do we retaliate in that way? I don't think we should. It goes against basic human dignity. If what happened to these people is true, then both sides are wrong. You cannot justify the treatment unless you are heartless person who thrives on nothing but primative urges.

______________________________________

If they want to come under the umbrella of protection that International Law provides, then let them form a nation state and join the world community. Otherwise they have no reason to expect to be treated according to such laws.

john

Originally posted by John Nada

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by heelstone
See how the Taliban treated the women in Afghanistan. See how Hussein treated his own people. And then come back and whine about how we need to make nicey-nice with them. You'll get the same response from me.

hmmm...yes and let's not point out the irony here of the amount of accusations of US soldiers raping Iraqi women and a tad too trigger happy when someone's holding some foil with a sandwich inside.

I'm sure it's all worth it to get that small number of terrorists though.

____________________________

Rapings should be punished if proven, although I'm sure that the frequency has gone way down since Uday and Qusay left the building.

And yes, it's worth it to get that small number of terrorists. It only takes one terrorist to fly a plane into a building.

john

Originally posted by jsobecky
No, I would probably not knowingly torture innocents, but it is a fact of war that innocents do get hurt. Especially when cowardly terrorist scumbags hide in schools and hospitals.

Let me ask you this: if torture of an innocent would have prevented 9/11 or 3/11, would you condone it?

You can call them human beings to try and justify their acts of murder. It won't wash. In other words, you can't polish a turd.

The line is tired because you want to forget that it ever happened. You would rather focus on the poor, human being terrorists getting their milk and cookies at bedtime.

And yes, I can justify it. You call it using one wrong to justify another. That's one way of putting it. I call it fighting fire with fire.

If they want to come under the umbrella of protection that International Law provides, then let them form a nation state and join the world community. Otherwise they have no reason to expect to be treated according to such laws.

john

Yes, innocents do get hurt, but does that justify treating detainees like they are lower than dog #? What if all of them are guilty except for one? The innocent one goes back home with hatred of America and boom, another terrorist is born. And no I would not condone it because it could and probably would create another terrorist. Do you think anyone would have "understanding" of a country after being treated like this? They go back home pissed and rightfully so.

Also, no I am not justifying the terrorists murders. All I am saying is they are human too. They are owed basic human rights. Whenever you hire a prostitute to come masturbate and rub their fluids on these people, you have crossed a line. (I know, most people in jail would enjoy it, but that isn't their culture.)

If you fight fire with fire, all you have left is a handful of ashes. This is something different from basic military operations. No we should not turn the other cheek to terror, but should we torture people? How would you feel being an innocent detainee? Would you just understand them beating you and taunting you and treating you like you were less than human?

They do have the "umbrella protection" of international law. They are citizens of their own country are they not?

Originally posted by OXmanK

Originally posted by jsobecky

If you fight fire with fire, all you have left is a handful of ashes.

This I must agree with you on, and it is a sad truth. But I do not see any other way to deal with terrorists; they have stated that their sole mission is to wipe us from the face of the earth. No negotiation, no compromise, those are their words.

I know that I must sound to many like I am an ultra-right wing warmonger. I am not. But I do love my country, and am willing to defend it against those that would murder us just because we are American.

john

I don't think you sound like an ultra-right winger. You sound like a concerned person and I respect that. I would die defending my country if I had to, but terrorism can be stopped and maybe by force, maybe by intelligence. I don't know what the answer is to stopping it, but I do know in my head that torturing people will only lead to more violence in the long run. I hope I'm wrong, but you cannot help but wonder if these people who "pose no threat" won't hold the torturing thing against us and incite another jihad against the states.

Originally posted by OXmanK
I don't think you sound like an ultra-right winger. You sound like a concerned person and I respect that. I would die defending my country if I had to, but terrorism can be stopped and maybe by force, maybe by intelligence. I don't know what the answer is to stopping it, but I do know in my head that torturing people will only lead to more violence in the long run. I hope I'm wrong, but you cannot help but wonder if these people who "pose no threat" won't hold the torturing thing against us and incite another jihad against the states.

They couldn't be blamed if they were unjustly tortured/punished, and the last thing we need is another enemy, especially of our own making. I, too, wish I had the answers.

john