The politics of self-responsibility

reply to post by Skyfloating


Ok, I'll try to be the devil's advocate on this one.. I am supposing you are for small government, no?

My real problem with your argument is that you expect people to act with this "self-awareness" and "self-accountability," but you don't necessarily allow for the possibility that a government can become so "un-aware" of its own people. What I mean is, that if a citizenship allows for a government to get too encompassing, then their ability to be "self-responsible" is severely at odds.

What happens when planting certain crops on your land requires permits and licenses? Say you want to live off the earth, and be completely in control of your own realm? Well there's more woodland area that restricted from camping than the places they allow.

Say you want to take care of your own protection? Well there's plenty of restriction there as well.
Detatch yourself from the power grid? We'll see.
Sell your own goods in a decent market? Red tape.

What I'm saying is, a turn-around in government is what we need to give us the possibilities you think we have. We need a government who isn't so vested in the daily goings-on of its people.

I'm certainly not saying the election will help. I'm not voting in a system that doesn't care what I choose.

I am all for your liberterian ideals, but maybe it just sounds a little too utopian to be realistic in my eyes.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I really wish I was exaggerating my friend, I really do...

I see the weakness and the apathy as Hal so eloquently put it all over.

I see a welfare state in the making, which is how far exactly removed from Socialism?

What will it take to spark it off to a full blown Marxist State? The election of a Marxist President while Socialist control the House and Senate?

I just don't see how that is so far fetched..

Semper

Originally posted by Hal9000
Except for Semper's post, I find the remaining posts a bit disturbing.

You find it disturbing that there are people not deceived by the charade you take seriously.

The apathy being displayed here is what I am talking about. You are all talking about how politics or this election doesn't really affect you, and that you are the one that is in control of your life, right? Well good for you. Carry on with your lives and sleep well.

Apathy would be not to take anything seriously. We however take that which is important seriously: Getting our own act together not waiting for politicians to do it for us.

Meanwhile half a world away, there are people just like you who are picking up the pieces that we left behind. They have lost loved ones and their country is in shambles. How does that not bother you? How can you say politics doesn't matter? The Iraq war was unnecessary and we were misled as a nation to do the bidding of right wing extremists and I do not feel like letting that go as if it didn't happen.

Even more reason to dismiss politics and assume responsibility for ones own house and own local community.

The taxes we payed, that so many complain that we pay too much of, went toward funding that misery. My hard earned money was used to buy some bomb that destroyed someone else's home. I am none to happy about that, and will not be satisfied until the republican party pays for this. That is what this upcoming election is about. It is not about some liberal messiah or some has been conservative.

Yep, thats the insanity you vote for if you vote Republican.

And the insanity you vote for if you vote Obama is wasting money on "financial aid" in africa (instead of building schools there)...

Giving people fish instead of teaching them how to fish.

Thats why: Just say no. Vote neither of the two.

I agree that personal responsibility is key, I am not so sure I take a Laissez-faire attitude towards politics though. I think part of personal responsibility, in a country with an electoral system in any event, includes debating issues, vetting candidates, and the like.

I can certainly make things work, whether a liberal or conservative is voted in, and even should they turn the Bush family into a monarchy and we were stuck with the shrub for the rest of his natural life. That doesnt mean that I think we should all just shut up about it while it was being implemented, however. If there were any way at all to stop that from happening, I would think it was part of my personal responsibility to ensure I did all I could to prevent it. Ditto with the current situation. I may be able to make it work no matter who is in office, but I think the debate about issues and candidates is a highly important (and fun to some degree) part of the whole process.

As a side note, in the OP you mentioned that should a Republican be voted in it might be good for your business(es), lol, I am not so sure about that. After two full terms it seems to me quite a few businesses are doing pretty poorly. Unless of course you are in oil or defense work. I think simplistically drawing a line between the parties is not very valid any more. I think that is just a nice "team sport" they play with the voters to make us think there is a huge difference between the candidates.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Ok, I'll try to be the devil's advocate on this one.. I am supposing you are for small government, no?

Smaller Government is necessary for each and every one of us to grow more able to handle things.

My real problem with your argument is that you expect people to act with this "self-awareness" and "self-accountability," but you don't necessarily allow for the possibility that a government can become so "un-aware" of its own people. What I mean is, that if a citizenship allows for a government to get too encompassing, then their ability to be "self-responsible" is severely at odds.

Which is why some government is called for. Anarchy is no way to go.

What happens when planting certain crops on your land requires permits and licenses? Say you want to live off the earth, and be completely in control of your own realm? Well there's more woodland area that restricted from camping than the places they allow.

...because the government is overblown in the first place.

Say you want to take care of your own protection? Well there's plenty of restriction there as well.
Detatch yourself from the power grid? We'll see.
Sell your own goods in a decent market? Red tape.

Doesnt all of this prove the point that government must become smaller?

I am all for your liberterian ideals, but maybe it just sounds a little too utopian to be realistic in my eyes.

Not utopian if some common sense is applied and everyone starts saying: "Me, my neighbourhood and my community first, politics second".

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I agree that personal responsibility is key, I am not so sure I take a Laissez-faire attitude towards politics though. I think part of personal responsibility, in a country with an electoral system in any event, includes debating issues, vetting candidates, and the like.

That would be true if there were not only two candidates, both with utterly abysmal plans for our future.

As a side note, in the OP you mentioned that should a Republican be voted in it might be good for your business(es), lol, I am not so sure about that.

Thats true. Republicans are going to spend my money for war crimes.

And Democrats are going to steal my hard-earned money and give it to those who will waste it rather than putting it to productive use.

Great choice of candidates!

Originally posted by semperfortis


I really wish I was exaggerating my friend, I really do...

I see the weakness and the apathy as Hal so eloquently put it all over.

I see a welfare state in the making, which is how far exactly removed from Socialism?

What will it take to spark it off to a full blown Marxist State? The election of a Marxist President while Socialist control the House and Senate?

I just don't see how that is so far fetched..

Semper

You forgot to answer the question:

If you are really so tough wouldnt that entail being able to tolerate 4 years of democrats?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

My real problem with your argument is that you expect people to act with this "self-awareness" and "self-accountability," but you don't necessarily allow for the possibility that a government can become so "un-aware" of its own people. What I mean is, that if a citizenship allows for a government to get too encompassing, then their ability to be "self-responsible" is severely at odds.

Which is why some government is called for. Anarchy is no way to go.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, or I was inept at communcating it.

When I say that a gov becomes "unaware" of its citizens, I mean that they are ridding themselves of the burden of even acknowledging their existance. I mean that they no longer account for their peoples' worth and instead, use semantics to make the sheep obey.

Maybe not so grandios, but I think you get a better feel for my post if you take it that way.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, or I was inept at communcating it.

When I say that a gov becomes "unaware" of its citizens, I mean that they are ridding themselves of the burden of even acknowledging their existance. I mean that they no longer account for their peoples' worth and instead, use semantics to make the sheep obey.

Maybe not so grandios, but I think you get a better feel for my post if you take it that way.

OK. But this does immediatly bring the following response to mind (from me at least):

Since they dont acknowledge my existence, I wont acknowledge theirs...meaning I wont take them as seriously as they hope I will and instead look after myself and my groups.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Well said, well said...I can not agree more.

Apart from politcians not being able to change your personal life...

...they dont really have the "power" we ascribe to them. The power is held by people who dont necessarily step into the spotlight.

What a huge deception some of you are falling for.

Originally posted by Hal9000
Meanwhile half a world away, there are people just like you who are picking up the pieces that we left behind. They have lost loved ones and their country is in shambles. How does that not bother you? How can you say politics doesn't matter?

That's why I was so careful to understand the original question that Skyfloating was asking. And I came to the conclusion (however correct or incorrect) that he was asking how important the next president is to me personally. How will it affect my personal life, my home, my family, my work, my own personal world. And the answer for me is, not much at all, I don't believe.

If he were to ask how it will affect the WORLD, I think it matters a great deal. And that's why I'm voting for Obama. I think he has a really good chance of affecting some things that are happening in the world, specifically, the Iraq situation. In my second post, I said:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
when I think of "change", I'm not thinking of change in my life, personally. I'm thinking of a change in direction as a country. ( I touched on it here ) When I speak of desiring change, it's for our country to take a different tack in the world.

Just to clarify that for you, Hal.

I'm all for people becoming more responsible and self-sufficient, so I think I agree with you here, Luke Skyfloating. Well, no... in fact I know I do agree with you, here.

I say we round all politicians up, beat them about the head -- and then throw them all into the Sea. Blair first. Perhaps children from various primary schools around the country could be on hand to throw stones at him in case he resurfaces. Whoever hits him on the skull and sinks him wins a prize. The event would be recorded in HD and distributed freely on the internet and British newsagents in a special package.

A new and worthwhile sport for the world. As backward, barbaric and Abrahamic as it is comical -- and necessary.

Hello! I'm pretty new to ATS. Although on the surface I'm an Okie redneck living on 10 acres 20 miles from any seat of civilization, scratch that surface and you'll find an an educated, intelligent woman who has traveled to foreign countries, loves increasing her knowledge and was on the debate team in high school.

Way back in the late 70's I had some friends who were convinced that the end of civilization, if not the world, was imminent. They hoarded silver coins and things they thought would have value and had a cabin in the mountains that they intended to retreat to when 'it all falls apart.' Obviously they were wrong, but they opened my eyes to some things and awakened in me a desire for self-sufficiency that is still one of the major purposes of my life.

I agree wholeheartedly with the basic premise (as I understand it) put forth by the OP. America was founded on independence and personal responsibility, and somewhere along the line the country seems to have lost, or discarded, both principles. Although handicapped by lack of funds, I am working as hard as I can towards being able to survive 'off the grid.' At this point, I can provide some of my own food, have a well for water (off the flouride and chlorine, Yay!), and can survive, albeit not comfortably in the Summer, off the power grid. And mostly, everyone who knows about it shakes their head and thinks I'm 'weird.'

Having read about the Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Skull & Bones, and a lot of similar stuff, I came to the conclusion that U.S. politics and our elections are just a big show put on to distract the U.S. public from what's really going on in the country. Our 'leaders' are mostly just puppets, and no matter which puppet is in the 'big chair,' the puppetmasters are still the same; nothing will significantly change. I've read that the American public didn't really elect Bush this last time, and all the fuss about that, but what did it really matter? I've read that Bush & Kerry were frat brothers who have the same agenda under the veneer, and we'd still be going the same general direction as a country no matter which was elected.

If most of that is true, then 'they' won't allow Obama to be elected if he really is different, but more likely he's just another puppet who will not be able to make any REAL changes. Ron Paul might actually not be one of the puppets; I like him and would have gone and voted for him if he were a viable candidate come election day, but I (thought I) knew from the beginning that 'they' would never allow him to be elected. If he's for real, he's too much of a threat to their control.

I'm no hero or martyr, and all I really want is some happiness and freedom as I approach the Autumn of my life. All the same, I feel a bit of guilt as I attempt to hunker down and save myself and my husband from what may be coming without too much concern about my 'fellow Americans.' I do try to open eyes where I can and at least get people thinking about taking care of themselves instead of depending on the gov't to do it for them; there are some 'mainstream' disaster scenarios that might result in the collapse of the system without dragging conspiracies, aliens, or the Mayan calendar into the picture.

I want enough government to provide an infrastructure of roads and be able to keep crime under control to the extent that I can go about my business without worrying about it too much, and I'm amenable to paying some taxes for that, but the current government is way out of control and needs drastic downsizing in my opinion. Not that I believe it will happen. There are whole generations of families living off of our taxes, children being educated (indoctrinated?) with the money we have to pay to 'own' a house and land, etc. etc. I can't even choose not to wear my seat belt without breaking the law.

So, if you don't mind, educate me! Where am I wrong? Does it really make any difference who gets elected?

Hi Heike. Welcome to ATS. Have you visited the Survival Forum?

Originally posted by Heike
So, if you don't mind, educate me! Where am I wrong? Does it really make any difference who gets elected?

I'm not sure if you're right or wrong. Unfortunately, only time will tell. I'm willing to give Obama a chance to show that he's not a puppet. If he is, I will be disappointed, but not terribly surprised.

reply to post by Heike


Very well put Heike. I have nothing to add to that. Thats indeed the original thoughtstream of our founding ancestors.

reply to post by Skyfloating


The way I am going to deal with the two sucky candidate fiasco is that I am not voting for either of them. I am going to vote for Ron Paul, or Ralph Nader, I am not sure which as yet.

Instead of taking the bait and getting suckered into the lesser of two evils choice the MSM is pushing on us, I am encouraging everyone I know to choose the candidate they REALLY want to be president and NOT vote for the guy they think can beat the worst candidate.

As you point out, there isnt a huge difference between the two MSM darlings, so why not just vote for our own ideal? I feel we need to break out of the fallacy of the false choice. We DONT only have two choices. We have as many as we give ourselves. We just need to see and believe that, and encourage others to do the same.

Edit to correct a missing g on give.

[edit on 19-7-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by Heike

So, if you don't mind, educate me! Where am I wrong? Does it really make any difference who gets elected?

I would say it absolutely matters who is elected, but not if you only decide to choose between the two puppets. I think we need to reject anyone held out by the media as a candidate, and vote for someone we like, but the corporations dont. (And we can see this from whom they block from having airtime.)

If we could get an "outsider" elected, who is hostile to the corporate takeover of the US via election rigging, I think we could do some pretty remarkable things to turn this nation around.

Just my two cents. Dont play their game, its rigged. You will lose either way. You might lose if you play it your way, but at least you lost doing what you wanted to do.

I'd like to know what proof anyone has that both mainstream candidates are puppets.

And just to be clear, I am not voting for the lesser of 2 evils. I'm voting for the person who is running for president that I prefer. THere is no one I agree with 100%. Except me.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Even I can not defeat the Ultimate Super Villain that is the Liberal Left...

They are the Kryptonite to my super powers...

I can stand in the breach and continue to argue facts and common sense, but the emotional response the Liberals depend on is immune to common sense and factual evidence.

So, I stand in the breach, but even I can not defeat Socialism on my own...

Semper