Choice of Aircraft

Originally posted by tezzajw
How many planes has NORAD failed to intercept in the real world?

How many threats have originated from American airspace involving commercial jets with passengers?

Originally posted by _Del_
How many threats have originated from American airspace involving commercial jets with passengers?

Gee you really should do research before posting so you do not look so immature.

911research.wtc7.net...

Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times.

Those aircraft were scrambled for planes entering the offshore ADIZ or rare occurrences that an private aircraft wandered into airspace restricted because of the presence of the POTUS or a public event like the Super Bowl. How many of those planes originated in American airspace involving commercial jets with passengers on board? The same article you're citing from says that previous to that date in September, there were only 20 planes on alert and six of them were located in Canada. I guess you should probably read the source instead of the quote they mined.

[edit on 20-7-2008 by _Del_]

Originally posted by _Del_
How many of those planes originated in American airspace involving commercial jets with passengers on board?

More then in excercises. It also proves my point that NORAD does not miss many planes, let alone 4 in 1 day.

Please do research before posting so you do not look immature.

Please provide me a list of these interceptions of domestic commercial flights along with the response time so I can make a judgment as informed as yours about the normal interception rate and time to intercept for the fighters. As a civilian my only associations with NORAD (and more anciently ADC) have been related to testing products for the customer against interceptors over the Englin Test Range and the Eastern Test Range. I'm happy to listen to your expert opinion.

Originally posted by _Del_
As a civilian my only associations with NORAD (and more anciently ADC) have been related to testing products for the customer against interceptors over the Englin Test Range and the Eastern Test Range.

Well then you should know better then me (maybe) about the number of times that NORAD has ever missed making a intercept.

Do you know if NORAD has ever missed more then 1 intercept in a day? Since you have the experience.

And I'm telling you it's happened several times in exercises. In fact, I could tell an amusing story (atleast amusing after everyone was safely on the ground) about a time they almost shot down one of their one aircraft rather than our product during a live fire exercise. But again, you rejected that testimony because it was an exercise.
So I am completely unaware of how many times they have missed a non-exercise intercept of domestic commercial aircraft (or even international traffic, or even foreign military incursions. Though I do know of atleast one recently) or how many times they have done so in an untimely manner. I was asking you, who has done all this research to tell me. How many domestic commercial flights have been intercepted? How many of those failed or were late? I'm asking you the researcher, how fast all 20 of the fighters on alert that day stretched from Alaska to Canada to San Diego to Florida back to Canada should have intercepted the domestic commercial flights. And how fast they have intercepted those domestic commercial flights in the past (since it happens all the time while I stir in ignorance).
Please provide me with that information so I can make an informed judgment. Because all my personal experience hints that it is incredibly unlikely that these 20 aircraft covering North America in its whole would likely be incapable of timely response to a domestic commercial flight, nor do I know of any instances of domestic commercial flights being intercepted by NORAD before 11 Sept 01, though that may have happened.


[edit on 20-7-2008 by _Del_]

Originally posted by _Del_
And I'm telling you it's happened several times in exercises.

Why do you keep avioding my question?

How many aircraft has NORAD failed to intercept in REAL EVENTS, NOT EXCERCISES.

Also has NORAD failed to intercept more the 1 aircraft in one day like on 9/11?

reply to post by ULTIMA1

Thats funny, why did NORAD phoney the times if it was not to decieve and make them look good?

There is a difference between a lie and a mistake.

Major General Larry Arnold reported that NORAD was aware of flight 93 at 9:16 a.m., flight 93 was not hijacked until 9:28 a.m.

If his intent was to deceive, how could that possibly make NORAD look better? Claiming that you were aware of one of the hijacked aircraft for 47 minutes without it being intercepted does not make you ''look better''.

When have you known the NORAD system to ever fail?

Personally? Never.

How many planes has NORAD failed to intercept in its history?

I don't know. But, then again, neither do you, so using NORAD's failures and/or successes has no relevance without actually knowing the statistics prior to 9/11.

Also if it did fail why was no one punished for it?

NORAD didn't fail. You haven't been paying attention, have you?

reply to post by ULTIMA1


So did you read my post or are you ignoring it? Need a hug? Let's sing Kumbaya for old times sake...

Originally posted by Boone 870
NORAD didn't fail. You haven't been paying attention, have you?

Yes NORAD did fail, becasue they let 4 planes go without interception.

Unless your stating they were told to stand down?

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by ULTIMA1

When have you known the NORAD system to ever fail?

Personally? Never.

Pick me! Pick me!

I know when NORAD failed! The morning of Sept 11, 2001. NORAD failed to protect the skies for almost two hours.

Maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events, but four airplanes were allegedly hijacked and used as weapons to ram buildings.

Originally posted by tezzajw
I know when NORAD failed! The morning of Sept 11, 2001.

I hope you know i was talking about before 9/11?

reply to post by ULTIMA1

Yes NORAD did fail, becasue they let 4 planes go without interception.

No, NORAD did not fail. You are looking at the end result only without considering that NORAD had eight minutes of warning before the first hijacked aircraft impacted.

If you think that eight minutes is enough time to scramble jets and intercept a hijacked aircraft, you are not only being unreasonable, you are being unrealistic.

Originally posted by Boone 870
No, NORAD did not fail. You are looking at the end result only without considering that NORAD had eight minutes of warning before the first hijacked aircraft impacted.

And you really believe that 8 minute BS?

Now many dozens of aircraft have gone off course before and how many did NORAD have only an 8 minute warning?

And you do know the the Secret Service had thier own radar warning system right ?







[edit on 22-7-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply to post by ULTIMA1

And you really believe that 8 minute BS?

Yes. I have never seen a reason not to.

Now many dozens of aircraft have gone off course before and how many did NORAD have only an 8 minute warning?

I would imagine thousands. I don't know how many NORAD only had eight minutes of warning, you should ask the FAA.

The only other example that I know of would-be Payne Stewart. His jet was found to be unresponsive at 9:34 a.m., the military wasn't contacted until 10:08 a.m., and the jet was intercepted until 10:52 a.m.

34 minutes before the military was contacted.
One hour and 18 minutes before intercept.

And you do know the the Secret Service had thier own radar warning system right ?

Yes, I know that they share radar with the FAA.

Originally posted by Boone 870
The only other example that I know of would-be Payne Stewart. His jet was found to be unresponsive at 9:34 a.m., the military wasn't contacted until 10:08 a.m., and the jet was intercepted until 10:52 a.m.

Well thats not true according the the NTSB.
www.ntsb.gov...

At 0933:38 loss radio contact.

About 0952 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA

About 1113, two Oklahoma ANG F-16s with the identification "TULSA 13 flight" were vectored to intercept the accident airplane

Yes, I know that they share radar with the FAA.

NO, they have thier own system.
www.historycommons.org...

It is reported that the US Secret Service is using an “air surveillance system” called Tigerwall. This serves to “ensure enhanced physical security at a high-value asset location by providing early warning of airborne threats.” Tigerwall “provides the Secret Service with a geographic display of aircraft activity and provides security personnel long-range camera systems to classify and identify aircraft.

reply to post by ULTIMA1

Well thats not true according to the NTSB.

Yes it is.

At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response.

Notice the time zone differences.

NO, they have thier own system.

Your own source says, ''Whether the Secret Service, in New York or Washington, will make use of Tigerwall on 9/11 is unknown'', and goes on to say this, ''Counterterrorism 'tsar' Richard Clarke will describe that on 9/11, the Secret Service had “a system that allowed them to see what FAA’s radar was seeing'.”

Have to remember before 9/11 was no system to determine if
plane hijacked - thats assuming hijackers did make their presence
known. Only clues ATC had was planes transponder going offline,
some foreign sounding transmissions when hijackers keyed up
radio instead of PA system. As planes travelled from one ATC
region to another contact would be lost - thus when Flight 11 left the
Boston region, just ATC began to believe if was hijacked and entered
NY region where controllers had no clue when was going on. Same
with Flight 77 when Indianopolis lost contact and assumed it crashed.
It took another 20 minutes to warn other regions to start to look for it.

After 9/11 a watch center was established to collate ALL incidents
taking place on aircraft or airports. Anything from aircraft missing
radio check to someone running from security would be noted and
followed until reason for incident determined.

Here is long article from Washington Post describing typical day in the
Watch center

www.washingtonpost.com...

Originally posted by Boone 870
Notice the time zone differences.

But that is still intercept time, NOT notification time.

FAA’s radar was seeing'.”

But the point was they have thier own system as stated.