Challenge Match: semporfortis vs intrepid: Illusory Geneva Conventions

The topic for this debate is "Human rights are a mere myth reinforced by those who hold power."

semperfortis will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
intrepid will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

Character limits are no longer in effect. You may use as many characters as a single post allows.

Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

Responses should be made within 24 hours. One single 24 hour extension can be used by a member by requesting it in the thread. If 24 hours passes without response, you may proceed with your next post. Members who exceed 24 hours run the risk of losing their post, but may still post up until their opponent has submitted their next response.

This is a challenge match. The winner will receive 2 ranking points, the loser will lose two ranking points.

[edit on 15-7-2008 by MemoryShock]

Challenge Match

Semperfortis vs intrepid

"Human rights are a mere myth reinforced by those who hold power."

Semper’s Opening


The list of people I need to thank for this opportunity and this debate is a long one. TheVagabond, for his tireless dedication; Memoryshock for his enthusiasm and commitment; The Site owners for the Forum; and last, but certainly not least, my esteemed opponent; intrepid our Champion.

If I have forgotten anyone, it is not out of a lack of appreciation, but due to my excitement in starting this debate. I have anticipated tackling our Champion for sometime now.

Now on with the debate!

Concept

"Human rights are a mere myth reinforced by those who hold power."

Human Rights: Definition…

human rights
The basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, often held to include the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law.

American Heritage Dictionary

We are all familiar with the often used and much misaligned:

“Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”, yet truly the definition is better served by

“Freedom of Thought, Expression and Equality before the Law.”

Objective

In this debate I am going to prove to you that:

"Human rights are a mere myth reinforced by those who hold power."


I am going to show you where your “Basic Human Rights” are ethereal ideological concepts that can be taken from you by the ruling class, those that hold power.

Opening:

During this debate we will be looking closely at examples, both modern and historical,
where individuals have lost their rights at the whims of whatever ruling class was in
power at that time and place. Where individuals that made the assumption that their rights were absolute, only to discover that those rights are merely a myth.

Just as importantly we will be examining Mankind’s eternal struggle to guarantee human rights to themselves through legislation, class struggle and even military conflict. We will examine also where this struggle is itself a myth also propagated by those in power.

I will make this statement to build my debate on:

“As long as there are rulers, monarchs or bodies of legislatures, with absolute control over the populations ability to exercise basic rights, those rights are in fact only products of our imagination.”

Looking at the definition of “Basic Human Rights” one can not help but mentally visualize how easily those “That Hold Power” can remove those rights at a whim.

We are going to be scrutinizing many ideologies throughout this debate. These will include the basic concept of “Law”, “Morality” and “Civil Justice” in man’s attempt to civilize and socialize all of us into a cohesive, working society.

These ideologies will come into consideration as I will show you where any guarantee of “human rights” is directly contradictory to society and by very definition are mythical at best.

That’s right my friends, I am going to not only show you the truth in the debate topic; I will prove to you where for society to function, the debate topic MUST be true!!!

Socratic Question #1
Which “rights” do you consider to be Human Rights?

Socratic Question #2
Which “rights” should be subject to removal for the betterment of Society?

Socratic Question #3
If our “rights” can be removed for any reason out of our control, were they ever “our” rights to begin with?


“Freedom of Thought, Expression and Equality before the Law.”

Freedom of Thought

While we currently now imagine that we enjoy the freedom of thought, that is only due to the fact that those in power can not effectively read our thoughts; NOT YET.
However even that right comes under fire in procedures put into place by “those who hold power”.

In civil and criminal actions taken against an individual, it is common place to scrutinize at length the persons “Motivations” for their actions. Thus examining their thought process at length and making summary judgments on what those in power may conclude we are thinking at any given time. We will more closely examine this as the debate progresses.

Freedom of Expression

In our investigation into this human right, we will be looking at legislation designed to limit and even completely remove from us our “Freedom of Expression”.

Legislative, Appellate Court and even Supreme Court rulings have all been enacted, passed and are being enforced that not only limit our freedom of expression, but completely eliminate it. This too will be more closely examined as we proceed.

These will include, but are not limited to:

Hate Words
Fighting Words
Criminal Expression
And
Conspiracy Statutes

Continuing:

Equality Before the Law

Needless to say this will serve as one center piece for the debate topic as this “right” has not been ours for many years, if ever. Perhaps at one point in the history of mankind we still enjoyed this Right, but undoubtedly no more. We will be looking closely at the many examples that prove this right to be a mere myth; examining prejudice, profiling and the many instances of ethnic cleansing throughout the world/

Also as this debate is focusing on “Human Rights” I would be remiss to not include and focus some time on the basic right of “Life”; the one right that we all would assume is not mythical and that truly does belong to us.

Yet I will show you where we do not in fact have a right to life, as that life can be taken from us at anytime those in power decide to do so, for reasons many and varied.

During this debate we will be forced to understand that our lives are not our own to do with as we please. That our human rights, those rights we have all thought inalienable, are only substantiated within our own minds and truly hold no substance in reality.

While the concept of this debate is something the average citizen never considers, I will show you where those in power not only count on this, but even promote the idea that we control our own destinies. I will show you where we do not.

We will be looking at the reasons those who hold power must reinforce the myth of our human rights and the consequences that would occur if the truth were ever accepted by the population.

I am going to show you where your Human Rights can be taken from you at the whim of those in power, and I will even show you the many ways that they can and routinely do take them from us.

In the end I will leave you with no choice but to conclude as I have that:

"Human rights are a mere myth reinforced by those who hold power."

Thank you

Semper

Greetings folks. I am very much looking forward to this debate. As some know this isn't the first dance for semper and I. He will be looking for some revenge while I will attempt to make history repeat itself. It should be a good one. After all, that is why we do this. To make people take pause to think and hopefully, to entertain as well. My thanks to MemoryShock for setting this up and, as always, to the reader as well.

"Human rights are a mere myth reinforced by those who hold power."

I would like to start by answering semper's first Socratic question as this will be my foundation for this debate.

Socratic Question #1- Which “rights” do you consider to be Human Rights?

I will be sourcing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as established by the UN in 1948. It is an excellent definition of human rights and as valid today as it was when drafted:

www.un.org...

The reason for this is that there are rights that are unique to certain countries. The 2nd Amendment, the right to bear arm, is a good example as it strictly an American right. We have to look at a larger scope, these can be considered but we shouldn't limit ourselves to them.

We will also look at individual rights and what it means on the larger scale. Basically, my rights end where anothers rights begin and vice versa. Criminality and the option of "choice" will fall under this.

We will look at structures of government and how this translates into WHO has the POWER.

Socratic question #1- Semper, who do you see as those "who hold power"?

Semper is going to look at history, that's a good idea. Much can be learned there. I also will be sourcing history. But make no mistake, we are talking about the here and now in this debate.

Socratic Question #2- Which “rights” should be subject to removal for the betterment of Society?

None. That is why they are called BASIC human rights.

Socratic Question #3- If our “rights” can be removed for any reason out of our control, were they ever “our” rights to begin with?

We all have basic human rights that can't be taken from us. In the event that one is found criminally guilty, the rights weren't taken, they were abdicated. More on that later.

We will also consider that with rights comes responsibility. With responsibility come reward and consequence.

Lastly, I will point out recent legislation that guarantees the individual that their basic human rights are protected.

I know this is lean, semper was less verbose than usual as well. Not wanting to give an edge, feel each other out. Kind of reminds me of the heavyweight bouts in the 70's. I look forward to your reply semper.

Thank you.

Challenge Match

Semperfortis vs intrepid

"Human rights are a mere myth reinforced by those who hold power."

Semper’s Reply #1

Hello my Champion and fellow Debater!

For those of you that may be unfamiliar, intrepid is the ATS Debate Champion and wears his flag of Honor very well. While I am without a doubt, a seasoned debater, “locking horns” with an opponent of intrepid’s caliber is always a daunting proposition.

Now, let us get into this wonderful topic, shall we?

Myth

A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.

Dictionary

I only included the pertinent segment of the definition as we will not be discussing “Bigfoot” here. For it is the Fictional, the Half Truth, the Mythical concepts of Human Rights I intend on illustrating in this debate for all of you to see.

Rebuttal:

semper was less verbose than usual as well. Not wanting to give an edge, feel each other out.

I’m not sure I have an edge my friend, but we shall continue..

Universal Declaration of Human Rights as established by the UN in 1948

That document will serve as well as any other, for the concept of “Human Rights” is a myth the world over as I shall prove to you and our readers as we progress. While mankind has created many such documents, as we are prone to do, and they all fall short of the complete guarantee of human rights as I shall prove to you.

Answer to:

Socratic question #1- Semper, who do you see as those "who hold power

I personally subscribe to the “Leadership Elite” concept in regards to “World Leadership” and manipulation. We can easily trace back the historical genealogy of our current world leaders and see the connections; yet as to whom controls and perpetrates the myth of human rights at this moment in time, is not pertinent to my stance on this topic.

Socratic Question #2- Which “rights” should be subject to removal for the betterment of Society?

None. That is why they are called BASIC human rights.

Ladies and Gentlemen, my opponent has made a critical error. While proclaiming that NO rights should be removed for the betterment of society, he posts a source that directly contradicts his premise.

1. without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
2. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
3. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile
4. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property
5. Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work
6. higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit

Same Source

Here I have listed but a few of the Rights illustrated by the document source by my opponent and you can clearly see that they are a myth reinforced by those that hold power. Across the world, we have no guarantees of any of these rights.


My opponents answer of none to which rights should be subject to removal for the betterment of society, rings completely untrue in comparison to today’s society. Why?

Because ALL Rights can be and are routinely removed for the betterment of society.

Example

An 18 year old gets caught with a green leafy substance. The 18 year old is a poor individual without the luxury of a high priced attorney and must settle for NO LEGAL REPRESENTATION. As such, our 18 year old gets placed in prison for LIFE. That’s right, you guessed it, By those who hold power and perpetrate the myth of human rights

Life in Prison

This is by no means an isolated instance as we can all “Google” for ourselves and discover the many times basic human rights are taken from us by those in power.
Now my opponents own source indicates that “No one shall be subject to arbitrary arrest” and yet we have a child here going to prison for life; for what?

Yet my opponent says that no rights should be subject to removal for the betterment of society. I have shown you that RIGHTS can and are removed for reasons far less serious than the betterment of society.

More on this later.

the rights weren't taken, they were abdicated

I beg to differ.

Abdicate

To relinquish (power or responsibility) formally.

To relinquish formally a high office or responsibility.

Same Dictionary reference as above

It is apparently going to be my opponent’s contention that when someone commits a criminal action, they “abdicate their rights. While abdication is defined as “voluntary” I do understand my opponents meaning I hope.

Correct me if I am wrong please, but you are indicating that a person that commits a criminal action, voluntarily gives up their rights, through their own actions and that their human rights are not removed.

That is all well and good, except for the fact that those in power routinely enact, create and establish more LAWS to restrict and cause us to voluntarily relinquish our rights; thus removing any personal responsibility from us in regards to the human rights we are supposed to have.

Socratic Question #1
Who decides which laws we can voluntarily commit that will cause the removal of our human rights?

Socratic Question #2
If Human Rights are equivalent across the globe, how can I as a traveler know when I have voluntarily given up those rights by committing an infraction I was not aware of in a strange country?

We all have basic human rights that can't be taken from us

And yet we have Slavery all over the world.

We have the life-long imprisonment of a child for the possession of a natural substance.

We have the rule of “eminent domain”, which we will discuss at length later on.

Equal Pay for Equal Work is a PURE MYTH

And of course the icing on the cake is:

higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit

Merit my BUTT!!! It is accessible on the basis of MONEY. Money held and held jealously by those in power.

Myths!! all myths designed by those in power to keep us settled and comfortable while “they” remain in power and actually do enjoy all the rights that all of us are supposed to enjoy.

We will also consider that with rights comes responsibility. With responsibility come reward and consequence.

No argument there personally, yet that very concept reinforces the FACT that our rights can be removed for something as simple as disregarding our responsibility; that in and of itself establishes the myth that is our human rights.

If they can be removed because I am irresponsible, were they ever mine to begin with?

Continuation:

Let us take a moment and look more closely at the source my opponent would have you believe establishes our human rights for us.

(I will be paraphrasing for the sake of brevity, yet all are from the original source)

Article #1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights

This is number 1 in the articles and perhaps number 1 in mythology as well.

We are NOT all born free and equal.

Ask any woman in any Muslim Country how equal she is.

Article #3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person

I have clearly shown you one instance where the 18 year old was deprived of his right to Liberty. Shall we further examine the government sponsored prisons in Syria, Iran, North Korea and sadly even here in the United States? Shall we see how many are there currently being deprived of life and liberty.

Shall we address the number of people murdered within the confines of our prisons here and across the world? They did not enjoy the HUMAN RIGHT of Security of Person.

Article #4
slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms

Are we to believe that slavery does not in fact exist?

This is a perfect example of the myth perpetrated by those in power to make us believe that we are in fact secure in our persons; when in fact the opposite is very much true.

Slavery exists all across the world and for many people it is a matter of fact, not myth. Yet here in our Western Comfort Culture, we are being fed the myth by those in power that it is prohibited and led to believe that it does not in fact exist.

I wonder if we walked out in the street in this Nation and my opponent’s Nation, and just ask a random sample of individuals if slavery is happening, what would we get as a response do you think?

I would expect that a significant portion of a random sampling would tell us that it does not. They are fully under the myth being reinforced by those in power.

Here are four articles from my opponent’s own source that clearly indicate the myth being reinforced by those in power that we have any human rights at all. To imagine those human rights are in anyway protected is pure folly for anyone except those in power.

Next we shall address exactly WHY those in power can’t allow you to have actual human rights.

In the end, you will be as convinced as I am that:

"Human rights are a mere myth reinforced by those who hold power."

Thank you

Semper

Due to unforseen circumstances, semperfortis and intrepid have agreed to a postponement of this debate until situations resolve.

Thank you for your patience.