U.S. military in NBC environment?

The military serviceman knows exactly what chemicals and biological agents do. The serviceman is trained to detect the effects of contamination, down to the last twitch before death. They are fully trained.
I'm from the days of the M17 protective mask. Sure, vision wasn't the best, but it was better than sucking gas. With MOPP gear, a soldier can function for several hours in a chemical environment. But the contaminated ares won't be that very large, anyway, so getting out of the ares wouldn't be that difficult, assuming the chain of command isn't totally brain-dead (Yeah, I know, very huge assumption!). Decon stations will would be set up to get the contaminants off of the soldiers, and soldiers are trained in the buddy system for MOPP removal.

Mechanical agent detectors on forward elements can alert units if there is any agents in an area, and the Mark I injector kits will rev the body up so that it will drive through the attack on the nervous system. As far as blood agents...well, you are SOL. The Amyl Nitrate ampules were not antidotes, they just made you not care that you were dying. They eventually took them out of the system as they were merely convenient methods for soldiers to get high on the government dime. I never did, mind you, but I knew people who did.

Yes, you can survive a contaminated environment, and yes, our gear is good, assuming you don't go nuts and rip off your mask. Nice to know I wasn't the only one that hated the mask!

IncognitoGhostman,

I'm curious about the M17 because it was used widely in the first Gulf War. I'm asking about the U.S. military as a whole because there have been many publicized issues about the American military lacking in certain areas in NBC defense. I'm not saying we'll all die, I'm just saying there are gaps everywhere and that concerns me.

However, I disagree with your comment that we would fight on. I realize you were a veteran in the U.S. Army and you would know some things more than others. However, you seem to imply that U.S. soldiers are "fight all the way" and blind followers of orders. Yes, they can be pretty blind, but they aren't crazy. They are pretty smart and know when they've had enough. I serously doubt the U.S. military would be willing to take huge casualties when in the long run it'll be detrimental. If you know anyhthng about warfare, then you know that WMDs are made for this purpose: to destroy the enemy, literally, and render it totally inoperable. If you destroy them, how can they even fight on? And as I said, America has shown it can't take that kind of a beating. The American people will kill the president for letting Americans constantly fall to something they can't kill with a weapon. You also forget the political side. Again, if the people don't like it, then the troops come home. Even without the politics, I don't think any soldier (assuming they've been unexposed) would want to fight in a situation where they could die before even firing a shot. Who wants their lives wasted like that.


[Edited on 12-3-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
The US military would perform superbly compared to the other countries militaries you just mentioned.

Where did this information come from that eludes to preparedness on the part of Russia and China being greater than that of the US?

That concept is just bizzare.

DeltaChaos

It's bizarre because to you, America is the only nation that matters. Can't stand the idea of other countries being superior to ours even in only one respect. It's very typical.

For one thing, their warfare is almost centered around NBC warfare. I know you like to think they're stupid, but believe me, they're as smart as we are and as stupid as we are. For three nations that have had the largest stockpiles of WMD, of course they would make their forces NBC-protected. Unlike in America, EVERY single citizen of the respective nation undergoes NBC training. Their entire form of warfare assumes WMDs will be used in almost every situation. Therefore, they train as if everything is an NBC environment. You do that, and you will be better trained.

This isn't news, by the way. Numerous military books and documents analyzing Soviet/Russian, Chinese, and North Korean military forces have shown that they at least appear to be better trained for the situation.

sweatmonicaIdo,

The US military would fight on at all costs thats what they are trained for. I know this because of the people I served with as a Combat Engineer and as a matter of fact I would have to say the Combat Engineer Corps is probably the most educated MOS in the military. I would have to say 95% of the people I served with were college grads and the rest were attending. We knew full well what would happen to us in the event of a NBC attack and would fight on at all costs to the best of our ability. As for the American public not standing for it this is quite true but this wouldn't affect the soldiers resolve, besides if there was a possibility of such an attack then we would be in MOPP4 prior to it happening.

That is a good quesstion why the US government is not providing training and equipment to the American public. Another question is why don't we have shelters to run to in a nuclear war where other countrys like Russia do.

IncognitoGhostman,

But didn't you say that the job of a soldier is to follow orders, and that's what they'd do? So that means that if the top brass orders a retreat, they would retreat, not fight on like you claim they would. And I don't think they'd have the stomach to fight to the death like the North Vietnamese would.

But I guess we can agree to disagree on that. I for one HOPE the U.S. soldiers would fight to the death like you claim. In fact, I hope it never gets to the point they have to do that.

The U.S. government seems to imply that preparation for NBC situations is a situation reserved for the government. I find that totally false. In an NBC environment, everyone is affected. That's what Russia and China and North Korea realize. If the U.S. government would prepare us better, then, we wouldn't resort to stupid tactics such as duct tape.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
It's bizarre because to you, America is the only nation that matters. Can't stand the idea of other countries being superior to ours even in only one respect. It's very typical.

...Has nothing to do with my patriotism or what I think matters and what doesn't. America's militarily is the one that is the most prepared force. Bar none. And it's not that I can't stand the thought of other countries being superior, it just so happens that, in fact, America is superior to these countries as far as NBC warfare is concerned.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Unlike in America, EVERY single citizen of the respective nation undergoes NBC training. Their entire form of warfare assumes WMDs will be used in almost every situation. Therefore, they train as if everything is an NBC environment. You do that, and you will be better trained.

You're right. These countries' military doctrines are MORE NBC-centric than ours. American policy regarding chemical and biological warfare is NEVER, while nuclear only RETALIATORY.

However, you will have a very difficult time convincing me, or any other veteran for that matter, that the Chinese government has the ability to train and outfit nearly 2 billion of it's citizens.

Or that North Korea would provide training and equipment to it's people when it doesn't even bother to feed them.

And the only reason Russia would need protective gear would be to guard against another nuclear meltdown or rebel insurgency, because we buried our hatchet in the 80's.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
This isn't news, by the way. Numerous military books and documents analyzing Soviet/Russian, Chinese, and North Korean military forces have shown that they at least appear to be better trained for the situation.

Send me the list of these books and documents that say they 'at least appear' to be better trained and equipped than the US military. Whomever wrote them must have had their heads way up there for it to 'appear' that they were more prepared for NBC warfare than we were.

I'm sorry, but I'm not speaking from a point of view of pride or patriotism, just facts. Such as the fact that the US defense budget is currently 9 times that of all these countries combined.

$325 billion in 2002 United States

$1.42 billion in 2002 N. Korea

$17 billion in 2003 Russia

$17 billion in 2001 China

I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just happy to be on this side of the pond.

Maybe you would prefer to go live in one of these 'apparently safer' countries?

De Opresso Liber
DeltaChaos



[Edited on 1-4-2004 by DeltaChaos]

I never claimed any other nation was "safer." I simply said they do certain things better than us. And I'm speaking from facts.

It really doesn't take a genius. Ever heard of making an inference? A country that is more NBC-centric means that because their warfare is based on WMD means they will employ the necessary measures to fight in NBC environments. To say that a country is more NBC-centric but is not prepared for the after-effects is irrational. Like I said, it's just like saying they're stupid. They're not. The U.S. is not NBC-centric, therefore, they don't put as much emphasis on it.

Defense spending is rather misleading and indirect. The U.S. tends to spend it's funds rather unevenly. After the Cold War, the U.S. Army and U.S. Air Force grew in size, capabilities, what have you, while the U.S. Navy underwent deep budget cuts. Sure, the U.S. Navy's ships are pretty expensive, but it costs far more to maintain the world's most advanced organization, the U.S. Air Force. And don't even tell me about the Marines. They didn't get their first Abrams tank until like ten years after it came out. As I stated earlier, they still use the M17 gas mask while the army has already made two upgrades. So defense spending doesn't really prove much.

Furthermore, when I say preparedness, I don't necessarily mean equipment. I mean that they can handle it and maintain a fighting force without falling apart completely. The nations that train extensively for the situation day in and day out is the one that is better prepared. They know exactly what to expect, and they don't even need to know what to look for, because their assumption that WMD will be used is their protection. If you're already protected, why would you need to look out for a chemical attack? Let it come; you're already protected.

Your comment about Russia was inaccurate as well. Russia still maintains the largest stockpile of WMD. That is even more reason for them to protect themselves. In fact, Russia probably had the best NBC protection factor.

I guess you'd want to be proven wrong, so here is your list. Yes, North Korea does issue it's people protective gear. Knock yourself out, bro.

www.fas.org
The Naval Institute Guide to the Soviet Navy
www.usainreview.com...
www.rense.com...
Jane's Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Defence
Jane's World Armies

That's all I have for now. I will post more as they become availiable.