The F-22 cannot be matched by any known or projected fighter aircraft,

anonynimity, sensory circuits, infra red, satellite imaging, detect systems;
Bogie, bandit

And what exactly F-22's RCS is? There is no official info about this. "Like steel marble" is a good "technical" specification.
From the official web site of NIIP (developers of the new Irbis-E radar)
www.niip.ru...
Russians say that RCS of the F/A-22A is about 0.1 - 0.5. And Irbis-E can see such plane in range of 165-240 km. On other hand F-22 can see plane with RCS 1.0 in range of 200 km. So according NIIP's engineers F-22 will not have any advantage in BVR against Su-35 or latest models Su-30 with Irbis-E.

0.1 - 0.5? Hahahaha. Maybe they mean a 0.001 frontal aspect target when viewed from the side. Su-35 with 1m^2 RCS? Most estimates put it far larger at perhaps 4m^2. Most estimates put F-22 far lower than .1. Even if, the F-22 can be detected at them ranges, which it cannot. It still has a massive advantage.

Irbis-E is PESA. Single frequency. Big Sidelobes. Lots of EM radiation. Well, the F-22 has been described as an antenna farm with its ALR-94. Irbis-E turns on radar, ALR-94 detects it. The system determines the bearing, range and type of the threat, and then computes the distance at which the enemy radar can detect the F-22. AN/APG-77 cued by ALR-94 sends a few pulses out to provide precise range data, at ranges far greater than typical volume search.

There is more to avionics than just detection ranges. If the Irbis can detect it at them ranges, can it I.D the F-22? Can it's RWR categorise the threat? Who will dictate the terms of engagement? The F-22 can and will do all of them.

[edit on 23/12/2008 by C0bzz]

a reply to: alienstar

I am reviving this 2008 thread, with current and relevant information:

nationalinterest.org...
RUSSIAN SUKHOI T-50 PAK-FA STEALTH FIGHTER CAN COMPETE WITH F-22 AND F-35

a reply to: MKMoniker

As far as Russia knows.



Also, wonder if the T -50's engines burst into flames like all the other Russian ones before used to? Zaph any insight to the engine reliability of the T-50? I'm sure it's an improvement but are the engines still cut from the same stone so to speak?

a reply to: BASSPLYR

nextbigfuture.com...

(Jan. 2015) RUSSIA SHOULD START SERIAL PRODUCTION OF THE T-50 PAK-FA AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER JET THIS YEAR
"Pre-production and initial production batches of the T-50 will use interim engines, a pair of NPO Saturn izdeliye 117, or AL-41F1 ... where the 117 engine is a highly improved variant on the AL-31."

a reply to: MKMoniker

The T -50 won't be as stealthy as either the F-22 or F-35. When it comes to stealth and systems integration the T-50 is more of a 4.5++ rather than a 5th generation fighter.

Instead of trying to compete with the US in stealth, Sukhoi went with super maneuverability. Until the new engines are fully developed it won't even come close even in that area.

They start deliveries, but that doesn't mean they're even close to operational, and won't be until closer to 2018.

a reply to: Zaphod58


Yeah but will it also set it's self on fire often enough like the previous Russian interceptors and fighters?

a reply to: BASSPLYR

They didn't. Their problem was that their engines were crap. The MiG-25 had to have both engines rebuilt after a mach 2 speed run.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: MKMoniker

The T -50 won't be as stealthy as either the F-22 or F-35. When it comes to stealth and systems integration the T-50 is more of a 4.5++ rather than a 5th generation fighter.

Instead of trying to compete with the US in stealth, Sukhoi went with super maneuverability. Until the new engines are fully developed it won't even come close even in that area.

They start deliveries, but that doesn't mean they're even close to operational, and won't be until closer to 2018.

But you have talked in the past about the new air to air misses Russia is developing.

Would these missiles make up for the gap in fighter capability between the Russians new fighters and the F-22 and F-35?

The impression I got from you in the past is they would render the F-15,16 and 18 obsolete, possibly the euro fighter too and cause a massive headache to the 5th gen fighters.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Thanks for your reply.

So our F-22 and F-35 are more "stealthy", and the Russians are aiming for the T-50 to be more "manueverable." As these capabilities important enough to be laterally equivalent? We have more money so can afford "stealthy"?

While the Russians can spend less on "manueverability", which they consider an equally important capability, and which might potentially have an edge over stealth?

And also, there's THIS, where Russia and China are working on better radar to render the F-35 UN-stealthy:

defensetech.org...
(July 2014) CHINESE AND RUSSIAN RADAR MAY PIERCE F-35 STEALTH ARMOR

a reply to: MKMoniker

It all depends on how good their low-frequency radar systems are, as well as how good the people operating them are.

Remember that Soviet-bloc hardware scored the only ever SAM kill of a stealth aircraft.

It was 1980-era stealth technology for sure, but the Serbs were also rocking a Nixon-era missile system. It would be safe to assume that the latest Russian systems have kept pace with US stealth advances, especially with less-stealthy platforms like the F-22 and the F-35.

They may not be able to kill an RQ-180, the LRS-B, or whatever else "stealth at all costs" hardware we have, but it's pretty clear to me that they envision that in a conventional air war, their radars and SAM systems would be knocking out enough f-35's and -22's that the more maneuverable T-50s would be on a much more level playing field with the remaining stragglers.

TLDR: We have better offensive weapons, but their entire system is based around providing a vintage Steelers-grade defense, so who knows who'd come out on top.

a reply to: crazyewok

They will. There's still the detection problem for both sides though. The T-50 will be hard to detect for us as well. It is stealthy, just not at the same level.

The new missiles will prove to be a massive headache all around though.

a reply to: MKMoniker

Russia knows how far ahead we are in stealth so they aren't trying to keep up with us. They're playing to their strengths.

Low frequency radar is still not good enough to fire missiles with. And stealth isn't static. It improves over the life of the platform.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: crazyewok

They will. There's still the detection problem for both sides though. The T-50 will be hard to detect for us as well. It is stealthy, just not at the same level.

The new missiles will prove to be a massive headache all around though.

So in the next decade we could see NATO lose its advantage in air craft?

Not a pleasent thought.

a reply to: crazyewok

No, but it won't be as great as it was ten or twelve years ago.

originally posted by: Barnalby
a reply to: MKMoniker

It was 1980-era stealth technology for sure, but the Serbs were also rocking a Nixon-era missile system. It would be safe to assume that the latest Russian systems have kept pace with US stealth advances, especially with less-stealthy platforms like the F-22 and the F-35.

They may not be able to kill an RQ-180, the LRS-B, or whatever else "stealth at all costs" hardware we have, but it's pretty clear to me that they envision that in a conventional air war, their radars and SAM systems would be knocking out enough f-35's and -22's that the more maneuverable T-50s would be on a much more level playing field with the remaining stragglers.

Hang on...Less stealthy platforms like the F-22 and the F-35 compared to what? The F-117 that was shot down? Cause they are both stealthier than the F-117 ever was. Hell the F-35 is stealthier than even the B-2 in total rcs, which is twice as stealthy as the F-117. The F-22 has the lowest all aspect RCS of any manned aircraft in the USAF inventory, with a frontal RCS of 0.0001~0.0002 m2 estimated. And in fact, the F-35 has a frontal rcs in the ku band of .000063 estimated (If you believe air power austrailia, who in fact hate the JSF so why make it up?). But the F-35 takes a hit on the rear of course, which gives the total RCS edge to the raptor. But if you take into account everything else that makes up stealth, i.e sensor fusion, radar, rcs, ram, etc, two generals in the past year, including the commander of ACC, has stated that the F-35 is stealthier than the raptor.

a reply to: boomer135

Less stealthy compared to the RQ-180, the LRS-B, and whatever other exotic platforms are out there that don't get talked about...

originally posted by: Barnalby
a reply to: boomer135

Less stealthy compared to the RQ-180, the LRS-B, and whatever other exotic platforms are out there that don't get talked about...

oooohhh. gotcha. and Im not sure about the rq. probably the lrs but the rq is a flying wing design. Theres only so much more you can do to reduce its rcs.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Thanks for your response.

"Defense News", however, is reporting that China's Anti-Stealth Radar is ready-to-go and quite formidable. Even as worries linger that it stole the technology from Lookheed-Martin:

archive.defensenews.com...
(Nov. 2014) CHINA'S STEALTH RADAR COMES TO FRUITION

aviationweek.com...
(March 2015) NEW FOREIGN RADARS STRENGTHEN STEALTH-DETECTION CLAIMS

news.usni.org...
(July 2014) CHINESE AND RUSSIAN RADARS ON TRACK TO SEE THRU U.S. STEALTH