Why do you think people join the Freemasons?

Put aside for a moment those who have family members inside the Freemason ranks. I'm thinking specifically of people whose only knowledge of Freemasonry is gained from books, films, and websites like this one.

It seems almost absurd to me, actually. You know up front that you will be made to swear an oath of silence at each successive degree, and you also know that you don't know up front what it is you will have to keep mum about!

Isn't this a serious moral abdication? Please, don't waste my time by telling me that there is nothing immoral to conceal - it isn't relevant to the question. The point is that the petitioner doesn't know what he doesn't know, and therefore his commitment to secrecy before knowing what it is he is to keep secret seems like madness to me.

After all, they don't come to you - you go to them. And once you're in, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Well, if it's knowledge gained from sites like this one, most likely either they end up seeing what it is actually about, or they see the nonesense people spout and want to join it for that reason. Some people may join just for the hell of it, so they can say they are Masons. They may join because they think there are mystic secrets they can learn. Heck, I think there was one fellow here who wanted to join some organization to save his family from the NWO.

well i know about the Freemasons and i would join them anytime they asked,
i want to serve them, the people today dont deserve what they have, they should all be enslaved or dominated. The Freemasons want to achieve that, and thats why i would like to help them, forget morals, and ethics all a load of bull. I just cant wait for all the stuff they are going to do, going to achieve.


The knowledge is a bonus


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[edit on 12/7/2008 by Sauron]

reply to post by applebiter


Probably because they need something more to do in their life.

They need a support group to fall back on, more social activities.

They need to feel like they belong in some club or fraternity.

Some probably do it to gain more friends and contacts.

Some do it out of curiousity or for the geometry and hidden knowledge.

I guess there could be a different reason for everyone who joined.

I agree though swearing a secret oath before even knowing what your getting into is just plain wrong. Anything secret in my opinion is not a good thing and I believe Freemasonry is nothing but secrets. Even though all the members will claim they have access to all the information everyone else does in Freemasonry I don't believe that.

I believe that there are secrets above secrets above secrets leading to the very top and the majority in freemasonry are led to believe that they know it all and there is nothing hidden or more to know when of course there is. Compartmentalized at each level hidden in secrecy.

Most freemasons don't even understand the ceremonies they perform in full or they have been given a watered down version of what it really means IMO.

If the Freemasons think they all know everything equal and the same well they have been lied to I believe because the whole thing is a secret from head to toe. One degree to the next and even when they have reached the highest degree there is something beyond that but of course in Secrecy like it's all done. People murder people in secrecy, people take over governments, steal, plunder and rape in secrecy. Secrecy is a great tool. I'm not saying that is what the freemasons do I'm only making a point about Secrecy. It's not a good thing ever.

Originally posted by applebiter
It seems almost absurd to me, actually. You know up front that you will be made to swear an oath of silence at each successive degree, and you also know that you don't know up front what it is you will have to keep mum about!

Isn't this a serious moral abdication? Please, don't waste my time by telling me that there is nothing immoral to conceal - it isn't relevant to the question. The point is that the petitioner doesn't know what he doesn't know, and therefore his commitment to secrecy before knowing what it is he is to keep secret seems like madness to me.

Well, the fact of the matter is, you can quit at any time, including DURING your initiations. So if you even think there's something hinky, there's nothing keeping you there.

Also, before you take that oath, you're assured by the WM that the oath will not interfere with your duty to God, your country, your family or your community, and having been given that disclaimer, you're asked if you want to proceed before the obligation is made.

So no, I don't really see moral abdication. You're going into it blind, and everyone there knows and accepts that, but doesn't take advantage of it. You're not expected to know what you're getting into, but it's the duty of those around you to assure you that every-thing's going to be alright. If the initiate has misgivings about the type of men he's voluntarily choosing to associate with, then maybe Masonry's not for him. Or, perhaps, at least not that particular lodge.

I think it's the same reason people join any frat. They want the companionship of like-minded people. I think it's as simple as that.

reply to post by applebiter


I always thought it was for the spaghetti dinner nights at lodge ?

Or to be able to wear really cool jewelery with a compass and square on ?

reply to post by sc2099


That seems awful glib, considering that a man should take a sworn oath very seriously. I understand what you're saying - don't get me wrong. There just seems to be sort of a GIANT blind spot in the reasoning.

One of the main points of the Masonic Obligation, that everyone but a Mason understands, is Honor, Truth and Honesty. There will always be naysayers, that will extrapolate this to mean something sinister and that is their perogative. I joined Freemasonry because the lessons that I wanted to learn, simply were not being taught anywhere else. In my short time on ATS, all I have seen, with respect to Masonic inquiries, are negative. The "Secret" of Masonry is available to all, but the obligation is the test of a mans sincerity and honor. Going into this obligation, and taking it seriously , is the key to what Masonry stands for, and if one is not willing to have faith, much like all the Religions of the world, then Masonry is simply not for you, or more to the point , you are not ready for Masonry.

Well could anyone suggest something, a little less boring, for people to join to for social networks and activities.
Because from what ive seen and read the Freemasons are extremely boring.
And turn people into egotistical zombified messes.

reply to post by JoshNorton

Also, before you take that oath, you're assured by the WM that the oath will not interfere with your duty to God, your country, your family or your community, and having been given that disclaimer, you're asked if you want to proceed before the obligation is made.

Swearing oaths in secrecy ARE against many religions out there including Christianity. Didn't Jesus himself say not to swear by anything on earth or in heaven?

You're going into it blind, and everyone there knows and accepts that, but doesn't take advantage of it.

I think it's un-wise for anyone to go into something blind and especially swear death type oaths with serious consequences if they were to reveal something.

Hard for me to understand.



[edit on 12-7-2008 by Malevolent_Aliens]

Originally posted by dredz
There will always be naysayers, that will extrapolate this to mean something sinister and that is their perogative.

That may be true, but it certainly isn't relevant to my question. My question presupposes nothing sinister nor sublime. My question points to the fact that there isn't enough information available to the class of petitioner I have described for him to make that kind of judgment.

In my short time on ATS, all I have seen, with respect to Masonic inquiries, are negative.

Yes, well, again, this has nothing to do with *this* post. The question is critical of the reasoning of a petitioner who by definition is not yet a Mason.

The "Secret" of Masonry is available to all, but the obligation is the test of a mans sincerity and honor.

Speaking of blind spots. Well of course it is available to all - from your point of view. A view that looks from the inside out, not from the outside in. You know what you know, and can therefore comfortably make such a pronunciation. The petitioner I describe doesn't know what he doesn't know, and so your perspective sheds no light on his condition.

Going into this obligation, and taking it seriously , is the key to what Masonry stands for, and if one is not willing to have faith, much like all the Religions of the world, then Masonry is simply not for you, or more to the point , you are not ready for Masonry.

That's very high-minded. It's also a abuse of the word faith, or else it's an abuse to reason. Either way, it is a circular argument, and we are no closer to an answer.

[edit on 12-7-2008 by applebiter]

[edit on 12-7-2008 by applebiter]

reply to post by applebiter


I understand what you're saying. It does seem oversimplified, but aren't similar oaths taken for any Greek frat or sorority? I wouldn't know because I didn't pledge.

I think the Masonic oath is so serious because it's foundation is laid on the serious concepts of Honor, Fraternity, Honesty, etc. that another poster already mentioned. If these things matter to a man, why wouldn't he want to seek friendship among others who hold the same concepts in high esteem? That seems to me enough to make a man swear allegiance.

reply to post by sc2099


I'm glad this conversation hasn't been hijacked (crossing fingers). It's been a good one so far.

Let me just give a hypothetical situation, borrowed in part from a movie I once saw. Let's say a man has had experience with seasoned, older men whom he held in high esteem, that left him skeptical of the language you're using. Imagine a man who marries the boss' daughter, and as a result he is brought upstairs and made a partner in the business. Let's imagine he has seen and heard nothing that would encourage him to believe the "old man" was anything but honorable, loyal, and of high moral character. But then imagine that upon entry into the executive realms of the firm, he is made aware that his company, and even the old man himself, has been engaging in illegal and unethical activities. "It's a part of manhood," he is told, "when I was a child I spake as a child..."

You get the point? It is known to me in *real life" that this kind of reasoning permeates business and government. Yes, building inspectors on large jobs can expect cash and/or paid sexual services. Yes, military personnel are used in violation of posse comitatus. Yes, doctors are sent on paid excursions to luxury hotels in vacation cities for pharmaceutical conferences. I've seen the FBI ABSCAM footage of Rep. John Murtha. That man is still holding office in the House of Representatives. Yes. The world really does work this way.

Why should the Masons be any different?

[edit on 12-7-2008 by applebiter]

Originally posted by applebiter
reply to post by sc2099

 

I'm glad this conversation hasn't been hijacked (crossing fingers). It's been a good one so far.

LOL that's because the Masons are all at the lodge. J/ks

The world really does work this way.

Why should the Masons be any different?

'

I believe you're assuming that the organization of Freemasonry engages in illicit activities like...just about every organization there is. While obviously there are Masons who act in such a way, I don't think it's fair to indict the whole organization and assume that the fraternity itself has sinister intentions. And if we presume the group to be innocent, why wouldn't someone want to join?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say that the goings on of members once inside the organization whether good or bad is irrelevant to whether or not someone would want to join? Or did I just read that wrong?

reply to post by applebiter


Well, I could respond by saying a cliche, like there are exceptions to every rule, or point out how much pride every mMason seems to have in being a Mason, and how much they do to help, and the general quality of person you get in Masonry. I could point out the general openness to a new initiate, or nearly any bit of information I could draw on the subject.
But the fact would be I'm not drawing on personal expierience, just stuff I've picked up from some rather great guys, who are generally doing more of that "serving others" I've heard of but rarely seen.
So I'm not exactly a impartial observer, or at least, not as much as I was, or would like to be.
You, are coming from movies and our own sense, somehting that was helped along by HollyWood and the wonderful, always truthful media, that nothing good on the outside, is good on the inside.

reply to post by sc2099


I also want to add that you do get to attend meetings and find out what it's all about before you take the oath. It's not like you show up and swear right in the parking lot. I think prospective members have plenty of opportunity to decide whether or not it really is for them. If someone finds out they were misinformed then they don't take the oath.

Originally posted by sc2099

Originally posted by applebiter
reply to post by sc2099

 

I'm glad this conversation hasn't been hijacked (crossing fingers). It's been a good one so far.

LOL that's because the Masons are all at the lodge. J/ks

The world really does work this way.

Why should the Masons be any different?

'

I believe you're assuming that the organization of Freemasonry engages in illicit activities like...just about every organization there is. While obviously there are Masons who act in such a way, I don't think it's fair to indict the whole organization and assume that the fraternity itself has sinister intentions. And if we presume the group to be innocent, why wouldn't someone want to join?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say that the goings on of members once inside the organization whether good or bad is irrelevant to whether or not someone would want to join? Or did I just read that wrong?

You read it wrong. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been around the block; someone who has heard "wise old men" in other social settings using the very same words to describe their clubs or endeavors that Masons use to describe themselves. This has nothing to do with men in the lodge. But men are men. What is this younger man to make of the grandiose language when he is asked to swear up front that he will not divulge secrets?

Is that clearer?

reply to post by RuneSpider


Well, the "green businessman marrying up into corruption" idea was from a movie. The rest of it I learned through living a real life in the real world.

reply to post by RuneSpider


Not surprised, of course, but ultimately you are trying to shape the organization to your view of the world, and your own understanding of the way things work. Understandable, of course.
But asking why it's any different is pretty much a moot point. You've probably heard it from someone, probably form someone on here. But you won't believe it. You're welcome to learn why it is different, or if it is different, by joining a lodge. 'Cause it seems that despite asking you're not getting what you want. So maybe instead it's the expierience you need.
Or something along those lines. Asking why something is not like you believe it shoudl be, is a hard quesytion to get a answer from someone else.