Soon in YOUR HOMETOWN: Introducing, the Homeland Security Federal Police Department!

Originally posted by NGC2736
When you see a cow on the roof of a barn you don't start off thinking "Gee, what a talented cow!" You consider it out of the ordinary, and wonder who or what caused that cow to be where cows are usually not found.

Invalid metaphor. There are numerous rational possibilities to explain what you claim you saw. Maybe they were transferring the vehicles from one property to another. Maybe they were wrongly taking the vehicle out for a spin on lunch hour.

You also cannot explain the obvious: if there is some need for covert federal police, why in the world would they drive around in vehicles with their department name slapped on them? Seriously, THINK! Its not like the government has any shortage of regular cars they could use.

Originally posted by NGC2736
And I haven't said a word about concluding anything. But some of you seem hell bent on telling me "Nothing to see here, move along." And the more people tell me that, the more I wonder what they're reasons are. (And the less likely I am to say "Sure thing, you probaly know more than anyone else on the planet anyway".)

I am unsure of how else to describe this except paranoia. When all evidence says "nothing to see here," constantly claiming there must be something to see is not rational. When people tell you that the moon is really a government spying device (seriously, I've seen posts on that on ATS), do you believe it because people post rational reasons why its just a space rock?

[edit on 9-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


One man's paranoia is another's survival skill.

And don't you think that's stretching a bit to think that these truck drivers decided to take a long lunch and tour the backwoods in a convoy of 18 wheelers? While their friend followed along in a strangely marked police type vehicle?

I'm not saying this was anything other than an odd event that aroused my curiosity. And you and the G-Man are trying way too hard to convince me what I saw was perfectly normal, and if I don't accept your word for that then I'm a crazy paranoid.

Again, yes there might be a perfectly logical reason for this, but knowing the area as well as I do, it's certainly not appearant. And you can call me a nutcase if you want, but to just explain away what I saw, along with my wife, with your supposed superior insight of what it must have been is both arrogant and demeaning, and shows the true ability you have to understand the concept of questioning.

reply to post by NGC2736


Uhh, again - has it occurred to you that this was a transfer convoy? You know, the type that happens all the time? Its not as if the government never has anything to transfer - it could be an 18 wheeler full of paperclips and office supplies. That would be the most obvious and simple explanation. And yes, I have seen state government workers take their vehicles out for a spin on lunch hour. Together. Why? Because they can. Its not like there has to be a massive government plot behind it.

There is no "g-man" on ATS, because ATS members haven't caught onto anything worthy of the governments attention. Although I'm willing to bet this is a popular comedy site for government workers.

It is irrational and kind of odd that you think anytime someone proposes a rational explanation instead of a paranoid conspiracy, that the conspiracy must be true. Evidence against a conspiracy is only evidence for a conspiracy when your really looking to make one up, in my opinion.

You still have not answered the obvious: if there is a covert federal police force, why would they just not use unmarked cars? Why make it obvious?

[edit on 9-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


Yep, you just use google earth and look at the Quachita Mountains on the Ark/Ok border and speculate on what the hell anybody here would do with one truckload of paper clips, or ballpoint pens, or much of anything that required such a huge delivery unless they were opening a store of setting up small factory, or any one of a thousand other things I've thought of and discarded because I know what goes on around here. (And keeping a secret in a small town, about any such unusual event, is next to impossible. Hell, we notice when some guy down the road gets new furnature and the truck delivers it.)

Been nice talking to you, though I give up when people are incapable of listening.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Yep, you just use google earth and look at the Quachita Mountains on the Ark/Ok border and speculate on what the hell anybody here would do with one truckload of paper clips, or ballpoint pens, or much of anything that required such a huge delivery unless they were opening a store of setting up small factory, or any one of a thousand other things I've thought of and discarded because I know what goes on around here. (And keeping a secret in a small town, about any such unusual event, is next to impossible. Hell, we notice when some guy down the road gets new furnature and the truck delivers it.)

Has it occurred to you that there are a ton of research facilities all over the place? They are also benign, we have one in the mountains here that is part of NOAA's high altitude weather research network. Its also right outside a small town where almost none of the townsfolk know what it is, because it is small and doesn't have a ton of employees. God forbid they truck in supplies, it must be an evil conspiracy.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Been nice talking to you, though I give up when people are incapable of listening.

I find it highly ironic you would be so ignorant as to accuse anyone else of not listening when you summarily dismiss obvious reasons over a massive conspiracy. At one time I thought we were here to deny ignorance, but it appears as though people are only interested in doing that when it doesn't mess with their worldview.

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


Look, for the last time, I never had a "world view" on this. Can you understand the fact that I was only curious? Stop trying to make it appear that because I question something I have an agenda.

And I don't care what goes on in your mountains, I know these mountains. I've been up and down pig paths you wouldn't even believe. I know what's out there, and what isn't. You're sitting in some far off place trying to tell me what might be here when I know damn well what is here. Not only that, I personally know, or am at least acquainted with, half the people for many miles in any direction. Country folks might seem closed mouthed to a flatlander, but we discuss a lot of things when you folks aren't around.

Let me make it simple. You couldn't set up a half way decent pop stand around here without it being noticed. There's no two bit research facility hid in the maountains. I have no idea the purpose of those rigs, but the more you try to explain them away like I'm an idiot and you're the only one that knows anything, the more I figure you for a close minded follower type that questions nothing.

I haven't viewed this as a conspiracy at all. I did say I thought it odd. I notice my surroundings, I notice things that don't fit into the pattern. I noticed something odd for my area, that's all. I have drawn no conclusions one way or the other, unlike you.

You have to notice things before you can ever question things.

But enough. I'll not be answering any more of your narrow minded assertions.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness


And on, and on, and on, and on. I am amazed how ignorant people are. Government is not perfect, but it does a ton of things for you that you don't even seem to realize. You must trust no one and live like a 15th century hobbit.

They do these things because we pay them.

The problem is that they used to protect the people from out of control corporations. Now they protect the corporations and ignore what the people want.

This is fascism.

When a fascist Government starts passing laws that circumvent the constitution and the bill of rights while letting big business fleece us of what is left I feel very uncomfortable with them setting up a NEW nationwide police force.

Only one reason in the long run for that. Just wait until they are up to full speed.

Are you for the people or the corporate? Look within you are not the light but part of the darkness.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


No, they do these things because the corporations you love to hate pay them. It is a fact that amount of taxes you pay is not enough to pay for the services the average American uses (average American - this excludes welfare queens and other people that use a ton of government resources). The vast majority of funding for services comes from businesses taxation. They are doing a horrible job of protecting corporations if they are taxing them to fund nearly everything.

Note that I still think people (and businesses) get taxed to much - but the truth is most government services are funded by corporations.

I am for the truth - the truth that corporations are not as evil as the populists on ATS think. Its just the facts.

[edit on 9-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by NGC2736
And I don't care what goes on in your mountains, I know these mountains. I've been up and down pig paths you wouldn't even believe. I know what's out there, and what isn't. You're sitting in some far off place trying to tell me what might be here when I know damn well what is here. Not only that, I personally know, or am at least acquainted with, half the people for many miles in any direction. Country folks might seem closed mouthed to a flatlander, but we discuss a lot of things when you folks aren't around.

I'm sorry, but can't possibly know of every single possible federal government property that is either in the mountains or through which you must travel through the mountains to get to. You can claim you do all day long, but you just don't. You are human, you are limited in your knowledge. I grew up in a small town and there is no way I knew every possible government building in or around it. It may not even be that its something "secret" - it could be any number of small research facilities that would be located in the mountains which are not interesting enough to catch the town's attention. It could also be any number of what public administrators call NIMBY (not in my backyard) items that people don't want next to them so we end up putting in loosely populated areas.

Originally posted by NGC2736
I have no idea the purpose of those rigs, but the more you try to explain them away like I'm an idiot and you're the only one that knows anything, the more I figure you for a close minded follower type that questions nothing.

But enough. I'll not be answering any more of your narrow minded assertions.

This is very poor manners. If I went around calling everyone who disagreed with me ignorant, narrow minded, and a follower, I'd have most of my posts edited out for not being polite. In normal circumstances to things like this, I would say something about you acting contrary to the site motto - but with this sort of temper there is no telling how you'd try to get back at me for it.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness


No, they do these things because the corporations you love to hate pay them. It is a fact that amount of taxes you pay is not enough to pay for the services the average American uses (average American - this excludes welfare queens and other people that use a ton of government resources). The vast majority of funding for services comes from businesses taxation. They are doing a horrible job of protecting corporations if they are taxing them to fund nearly everything.

Are you kidding me? What planet did you step off? I know where that money comes from. Its us. Most big corporations get right offs to the point they pay nearly zero.

We pay for these services through property tax and ten thousand other taxes.

Did you know that none of your Federal income tax dollars that gets taken from your paycheck goes towards the infrastructure of the nation? It goes to the military and in paying the interest on our national debt.

Please go regurgitate your fox news speak somewhere else.

Edit to add


[edit on 9-7-2008 by LoneGunMan]

ALD, I wrote several paragraphs in response, and then edited it all out.

I won't take this thread any further off course. I'm glad you're so smart and anyone, like me, that disagrees, is to be steamrolled into submission.

But that last part about me getting even was a low blow, and you know it.

[edit on 9-7-2008 by NGC2736]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Are you kidding me? What planet did you step off? I know where that money comes from. Its us. Most big corporations get right offs to the point they pay nearly zero.

We pay for these services through property tax and ten thousand other taxes.

This is what happens when you believe in populist talking points instead of fact checking. Check the facts - call up your local or state government - ask them if any of your taxes completely covers the services you pay for. Its a fact, they do not. The FACT is that the services citizens use are not covered by the taxes they pay because they pay too little. It ends up working out because businesses pay more in taxes than the services they use.

The good news is there are hundreds of articles written by scholars who have done the research so you don't have to. One such study, proving that businesses are overtaxed to make up for a low taxes paid to services used ratio, is:

Oakland, W.H., & W.A. Testa. 1996. State-local business taxation and the benefits principle. Economic perspectives, 20.

Now you can believe the facts, or the propaganda. I'll take the facts. There is a reason why local and state governments try to lure businesses: they make a ton of money off them. This is economic development 101. In the short term they are even willing to give massive incentive packages because of the long-term profits they can make off them.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Did you know that none of your Federal income tax dollars that gets taken from your paycheck goes towards the infrastructure of the nation? It goes to the military and in paying the interest on our national debt.

Also wrong, which you could find out by doing a 1 minute check of the federal budget document. Federal income taxes go to pay for everything in the budget, but its not enough - which is why we are in debt.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Please go regurgitate your fox news speak somewhere else.

My my aren't you a populist propagandist. Please go regurgitate your CNN speak some where else. Facts are facts. You are wrong.

I should point out that these facts is not a call for higher taxes on persons or businesses. In fact, we should be lowering taxes for everyone and cutting services. However...as long as the amalgamation of federal, state, and local government services remain at their high levels - the fact will be that individual citizens are not paying in full for the services they use, and that governments overtax businesses to make up for the difference.

[edit on 9-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
You must trust no one and live like a 15th century hobbit.

The things on your list are things I pay plenty for, NOT some gift, whether through taxes or out of mine own pocket.

I trust those who have earned it. However, this government and its mouthpieces have not done so.

reply to post by ShadowEyes


As I just established, what you pay doesn't nearly make up for the services use. Unless you in fact own a medium or large sized business, in which case you are paying for more than what you actually use.

Originally posted by mental modulator
Go REPUBLICANS!!! LESS GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE -- LESS GOVERNMENT SPENDING-- STATES RIGHTS,,, HUH???


DO ME A FAVOR AND STAY HOME NEXT ELECTION

P.S THANKS BUSH

MEXICO STYLE -- 10.000 RICH PEOPLE 260,000,000 peasents --FEDERALES AND ALL

Me being in México, I attest to the certainty of your last phrase.

Our government #s 110,000,000 people to get about 20,000 mega rich citizens. That´s why you see immigration of Mexicans so high in the US. But those 20,000 mega rich are adhorers of US policy. They support IMF and World Bank policies that will continue to # the rest of the peole and continue to make them richer.

Carlos Slim is the richest or the second richest man in the world, for instance.

en.wikipedia.org...

I have one question: Why is the Homeland Security Federal Police patrolling rural areas where obvious crime is far and rare, and not the mean city streets, where most of the gangs and the rapes are?

Who is really being protected?

[edit on 10-7-2008 by star in a jar]

ive seen these vehicles around in minnesota...little diff looking but same motif. Its been funny though that most people i seen driving are old fat men who couldnt stop a terrorist if the wanted to let alone get out of the vehicle in under two minutes.

we are in a age where peace is possible but have spent all our time killing others to prove our position to be the 'way'

If you react to others with your innerself and do not concern yourself with how they'll see you, it is surprising how it is contagious and they start seeing the light of life in others too.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by ShadowEyes

 

As I just established, what you pay doesn't nearly make up for the services use. Unless you in fact own a medium or large sized business, in which case you are paying for more than what you actually use.

That is the craziest most obtuse statement I have read in a long time. Between my wife and I and our property tax we pay out about 30K per year (low estimate) now you tell me I am not paying enough for what I use? LOL I use maybe a few hundred dollars in service from the government per year (high estimate).

Edit to add: I am not including road repair that is of course covered by licensing, plates, vehicle registration, gas tax and on and on.

Emergency services I know where that comes from, I should know I am Fire/Rescue.

You tell me what I am paying for? Hardly any of it benefits me.

The entire thing rides on the backs of the middle class all others have enough to make use of loopholes in the system.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by LoneGunMan]

Homeland aka Fatherland.

Zeig Heil!

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
That is the craziest most obtuse statement I have read in a long time. Between my wife and I and our property tax we pay out about 30K per year (low estimate) now you tell me I am not paying enough for what I use? LOL I use maybe a few hundred dollars in service from the government per year (high estimate).

Are you and utter and complete denial about the facts? Do you even care to read the research? I feel like I am talking to someone who is convinced the world is flat.The facts are real. You DO NOT pay enough taxes to cover the services you use. Ever. Unless you happen to own a medium to large sized business. In which case you are free to whine, because your being raped by the taxes your paying.

Its not hard to figure out, if you want to ignore all the research that says otherwise. Open up your local government budget. Examine the transfers. GASP - you will find that transfers made to citizen services funds is in excess of the total amount paid by personal property taxes. And you will find that transfers are made from other funds, primarily paid for by businesses, to make up the difference. Its all there. You just don't want to look. Of course you could just google and find it out, but hey, why take the easy road.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Edit to add: I am not including road repair that is of course covered by licensing, plates, vehicle registration, gas tax and on and on.

What? Why not? Those services are not covered by those fees, also a known fact. Nor are all roads state roads - county governments have a hand in quite a few. Also, when it snows and the road has to be plowed or when a storm causes an obstruction in the road, guess whose clearing it and guess what - that isn't covered by any fee.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Emergency services I know where that comes from, I should know I am Fire/Rescue.

Apparently not, as any emergency services manager knows this as well as I do.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
You tell me what I am paying for? Hardly any of it benefits me.

- Garbage services (your fee does not make up the actual cost)
- Water services (your fee does not make up the actual cost)
- Sewer services (your fee does not make up the actual cost)
- Electricity (even where this is deregulated, your bill still doesn't cover the actual cost and is subsidized by the government)
- Roads, traffic lights, etc.
- Sidewalks
- Police protection
- Fire protection
- Emergency management
- Hospitals (heavily subsidized, yet again)
- Parks (you may not use them, but they are there)
- City planning and zoning (you'd be whining if the city decided to allow a waste incinerator next to your house)
- Economic development (which is how city governments tax businesses to hell and back once they lure them in)

And it goes on and on and on...your property taxes pay for a part of these, but not the full amount of services you actually use or benefit from. Its just a fact. All of the research supports it, I even provided you with 1 of hundreds of peer reviewed articles about it.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
The entire thing rides on the backs of the middle class all others have enough to make use of loopholes in the system.

Your completely wrong. The entire thing rides on the back of businesses and the extremely wealthy (you'd have to be in the millions or tens of millions in property values in a high tax state to pay for the services you use), middle and lower class people are the free riders.