Climate Change/ Global Warming - The Debate Is Over

www.petitionproject.org...

It's a fraud. Nothing to worry about, just more fear-mongering by the so-called elite. The planet is not coming to an end. Back to normal programming.

Debate is NOT over. Global warming might be debunked, but Climate change is definately happening. The human impact on the change is minimal and this is what they are in agreeeance on. Doesn't mean that this issue is any less of a threat and that we don't need to change our ways. Just my opinion.

reply to post by RevolutionNow



I'm wondering where your tongue is right now.

1. Planted in your cheek.

2. sticking out of your mouth with thumbs in ears and fingers wiggling.

3. Swallowed down your throat

Can't get a read on your post. Care to elaborate your feelings in a more concise manner?

Becker

You show me yours and I'll show you mine. (comments that is!)

What I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with Carbon Dioxide as claimed. This is provable and backed up by 1000's of scientists as specified if you care to look at the site.

There has always been Climate Change and always will. The primary driver is the sun and I don't think we have much control over that.

I agree there are environmental problems, eg. pollution and companies need to clean up their acts. But why should the general population be taxed and punished for something that is non-existant. That's what I'm saying.

See now it makes perfect sense!

Just wanted your take on the link and the issue.

For what it's worth.............. I agree with you 100%

The sun is the culprit as it has been many times throughout our planet's history.

In my opinion, the man-made global warmers or global changers (this is their new crusade since the warming thing has crapped the bed on them) have difficulty understanding size and scope. What I mean is they seem to think the planet and its atmosphere are smallish in scope. They tend to portray distance and size based on a round trip car ride to Grandmother's house on the weekend.

It is difficult too come to grips with size and numbers for many people. It's just a human thing I guess. I find so many people who don't know the population of the U.S. or the entire planet. People become wrapped up in their tiny worlds and think of it as a planet in itself. It's a little scary popping out of the sand and taking a look at things from a global perspective.

Becker

reply to post by RevolutionNow


In America its over, it never was a debate over there unless words like this came into context below.

Money, oil, taxes, fraud, taxes on fuel and carbon tax. God what else is in the wonders of America. Oh if the entire North pole melted they'd say gosh must be just a lovely day then, sigh. Or when sea levels rise and encave New york, you'll hear gosh it must being a wet day then. Oh well it was raining alot lately, yes it has too much I'm afraid. "is it GW" don't be daft!!!

look at reality. Humans do have a major impact on climate change. We live on this planet just to have you know. WHY just, why is it that tempetures from the last 1000 years remained generally static, But not around the World industrial revolution era - which is the 1800s. Many graphs and records show drastic sudden temputures rises. Why? Even in this century alone has the fastest hike in temps since records began? Why has temputures not dropped. Why are they still rising even more rapidly? Why are temputures risings faster in lesser time too may I ask?

Might it be man's contribution also. NOOOOOoooo. "Sure we beathe oxygen out to clean the air" and oil emissions is good for the lungs. Half of the Amazon rainforest cut down for the laugh, heck it was entertainment. Oh BABY relax its the sun. "Shes got hella nastier"? You'll be fine just sit around and bake away. Of course "we neeeever affect this world's environment do we, nope not all it's the sun only BABY. God the weather will be great!!!!!!!!!!!! god bless y'all.

God America is always coming with this nonsense and anti reality rants. Constantly taking complete ignorance to GW unless it affects their wallets.


This thread is ignorant. Its exactly saying, Well It's not my fault so lets pump oil. Sure its happening so why bother do anything about it. There's is plenty of oil lets burn it, we don't affect anything in this world etc. I'm going to use my gas guzzeler because GW is farce. I'm going to use coal because it doesnt' affect the environment. why use renewables at all, when GW isn't real (insert's laughter here) I'm not going to pay tax for fossil fuels, but I'll pay higher tax for my grand massive automobile I have in my garage, gotta have my big car on the road ya know.... We could go on, but you get the POINT.

Hideous and obnoixious stuff that people pipe up in America. take responsibilty for your space in this world.



[edit on 7-7-2008 by mind is the universe]

Actually I'm an Australian so you can't really call me an ignorant american. Have you looked into the science. I understand the hype is easy to get caught up in and I certainly did. Once you investigate the facts though you see they don't add up. Have a look at the webpage and you will see.

I still think oil is filthy and hope a cleaner alternative will come along eventually. But there's no need to punish the world in the meantime, or start all this alarmist end of the world talk that we're all going to die unless we go back to a pre-industrial subsistence lifestyle. That is just what the so-called elites (bankers and the like) in our society want to hear. They want themselves to be rich and everyone else to be poor. They are very sick, mentally ill people.

reply to post by mind is the universe


shoo', point to me a country, nation or collective society that doesn't have its stupid people sewn in the fabric. they're equally spread everywhere. even in ireland.

global and environmental issues are a global concern and most of us are indeed concerned, but a lot of people too are hardened by misguided politics and corruption. we all just want the truth about the things that surround us. can't blame a person to want to look further into ulterior explanations.

reply to post by RevolutionNow


I never said it was the end of the world. We are affecting the world whether you like it or not. scientist get paid to show some facts and not all you know. The governments of course will not have you know reality.

fossil fuels is big business. So reality and GW is best kept under the carpet.

Now you can call the smartest guy here right now and tell me to differ.

I still think your all mad, and insane to think ignorant of your affection to this planet.

WAKE UP.

reply to post by zooplancton


You see and learn truth around you! How do you get that? by awareness. This exactly the opposite to what your proposing people to do, your saying people should look for explanations or facts, or other people. We are ourselves just NEED TO OPEN OUR GOD DANG EYES.

Its basically the big fossil fuels countries like America for example will continue to put their heads in the sands on GW because it will effect their pockets. THAT'S the reality that pisses me off in America. The same with George Bush and his lapdog tag along oil men. The oil industries constantly sprouting false facts on GW, because it's suits them not the world. The same with the media feeding crap over there saying GW is not real. Kyoto is not good, its bad etc. America is the extreme case, But the extremity is spilling out there quite graphically to me. Its actually hilarious the nonsense the average america is made believe on general simple daily realities. but I understand what your saying too.

[edit on 7-7-2008 by mind is the universe]

reply to post by zooplancton


Ireland and many countries have problems. but we are not as brainswashed by the media as the mother of all medias America is. America sees the world through the box thats sits in the lounge. the reality is that over there.


I don't watch T.V so I'm lucky that I'm not going to believe what the man on the news says, cus what the man on the news said is what part he wants you to hear. The bits that are left out are the things people in all countries should be aware of. NOT this constant but the media said GW is not real, the Scientist said its not real, FOX news said its not real. George Bush said its not real.

[edit on 7-7-2008 by mind is the universe]

Originally posted by mind is the universe
reply to post by RevolutionNow

 

God America is always coming with this nonsense and anti reality rants. Constantly taking complete ignorance to GW unless it affects their wallets.

This thread is ignorant. Its exactly saying, Well It's not my fault so lets pump oil. Sure its happening so why bother do anything about it. There's is plenty of oil lets burn it, we don't affect anything in this world etc. I'm going to use my gas guzzeler because GW is farce. I'm going to use coal because it doesnt' affect the environment. why use renewables at all, when GW isn't real (insert's laughter here) I'm not going to pay tax for fossil fuels, but I'll pay higher tax for my grand massive automobile I have in my garage, gotta have my big car on the road ya know.... We could go on, but you get the POINT.

Hideous and obnoixious stuff that people pipe up in America. take responsibilty for your space in this world.



[edit on 7-7-2008 by mind is the universe]

EXCELLENT POST!

I agree with you 100%. It blows my mind how far americans will go to dilute them selfs and deny responsibility for anything that happens.
ATS seems to be more and more a dumping ground for this kinda B.S propaganda. You better believe global warming is real.. you better believe we have a stake in it. sure, there are many factors that go into it: sun, volcanoes....MAN.
but im sure the americans will say im wrong and they will go back to driving big suvs, running AC all the time and eating non-stop. nothing is wrong, smog is ok and the fact it was more than 15 Celsius at the north pole in june is nothing to worry about.

also, I really think we should be able to deduct "stupid" points from people who write stuff like this: "It's a fraud. Nothing to worry about, just more fear-mongering by the so-called elite. The planet is not coming to an end. Back to normal programming."

two nice letters respond to this well.... F and U.

Ummm, if we don't trust scientists (in this case 31,000 of them), who do we trust?

Al Gore? The guy without any scientific training, who made his money in oil and claims that he invented the internet? That Al Gore?

I prefer peer-reviewed scientific facts myself. However, I understand where you are coming from as I too got caught up in the hype. I urge you to visit the page above and look at the hard facts. I know you just want to help the planet and there are serious environmental problems no doubt, like toxic waste dumping, GM crops etc. This isn't one of them though.

And I'm certainly not a fan of oil companies. The owners of the big companies and there chiefs should all be in jail in my opinion for so many crimes not least of which is the association with the war in Iraq.

I urge you to just look at the hard science.

Start by trusting what are senses show?!



I mean we call all be scientists too, which would be great in a perfect world too. as your right in saying the 31,000 or so too. But we all have a find mind to use, WHICH we don't fully utilize anymore.

we RELY on other people. THIS is a problem. ESPECIALLY today.

America is prime in your face example.

Over?

Seems to be just heating up!

Humans continue to suck up the carbon from the earth that took millions of years for nature to produce, most in the form of oil and coal and burn it. Climate change and global warming may not entirely be man-made or the result of releasing carbon, however the human race has by these processes in rather short time released far more carbon than nature would have in eons.

We continue to have a greater demand on what there is less and less of, it is no wonder that this dependence on carbon will bring economic destruction as well as accelerated global warming and eventually climate change to all nations on this planet. Accepting this reality now or when it is far to late hardly matters at this point in time... Debate may be over as it is relatively pointless now.

Rest assured though, that nature is quite resilient and has proven long before the infestation of humans that it can and will find a way to return the world to a balanced climate.

[edit on 8-7-2008 by The_Alarmist2012]

The "real" problem that needs to be looked at in depth is the waters that are being warmed by the underwater volcanoes, this is one major step to our human survival disaster.

Scientist usually do look in the wrong direction.



[edit on 8-7-2008 by observe50]

The petition in the original post is signed by about 31000 scientists of whom just over 9000 have PhD's. I may be being a little snooty, but how much major science is done by people without a PhD?

Also in the USA alone around 20,000 PhD's in science subjects are conferred each year (link), thus showing in context exactly how large a number 9000 is, even assuming that they are all science PhD's, which I personally doubt.

The peer reviewed literature included with the petition is published in the Journal of Amercian Physicians and Suregons. Obviously this fine publication will have lots of people with the specialist knowledge to provide a rigorous peer review process for this paper . I can't actually find an impact factor rating for this journal either, thus showing that it doesn't have a high rating in the scientific community.

The journal itself has some interesting articles in it. It changed it's name in 2003 from "Medical Sentinal", just for reference.

The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (JPandS), until 2003 named the Medical Sentinel,[24][25] is the journal of the association. Its mission statement includes "… a commitment to publishing scholarly articles in defense of the practice of private medicine, the pursuit of integrity in medical research … Political correctness, dogmatism and orthodoxy will be challenged with logical reasoning, valid data and the scientific method." Articles in the journal are subject to a double-blind peer-review process.[26]
Some past articles and commentaries published in the journal have argued:

• that the Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services are unconstitutional
  
• that "humanists" have conspired to replace the "creation religion of Jehovah" with evolution
  
• that increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has not caused global warming
  
• that HIV does not cause AIDS
  
• that the "gay male lifestyle" shortens life expectancy by 20 years.
  

A series of articles by pro-life authors published in the journal argued for the existence of a link between abortion and breast cancer; such a link was rejected by a National Cancer Institute workshop and is not recognized by major medical organizations such as the American Cancer Society or World Health Organization.

The journal is not listed in the major literature databases of MEDLINE/PubMed nor the Web of Science. The World Health Organization found that a 2003 article on vaccination published in the journal had "a number of limitations which undermine the conclusions drawn by the authors."

Quackwatch lists JPandS as an untrustworthy, non-recommended periodical.

Investigative journalist Brian Deer wrote that the journal is the "house magazine of a right-wing American fringe group [AAPS]" and "is barely credible as an independent forum."

This is from wikipedia.

Finally, the three authors. The first two are in their own science centre and are primarily in medical research, although they do have a political agenda against climate change. The third has been shown to have a dubious background in his science research, such as being funded by oil companies.

A link for eack one

• Arthur B Robinson
  
• Noah E Robinson
  
• Willie Soon
  

So all in all I would say that this petition certainly has me convinced that there is no such thing as AGW, after all all these excellent climate change, atmospheric, oceanographic scientists have been involved.

Come on give me a break.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by Iggus]

I'm more than happy that the slight warming of the Northern hemisphere is a cyclically natural phenomenon that probably has happened and will continue to happen long after we’re all extinct. A more responsible attitude to the world we live in? Sure, I’ll go with that but what I won’t tolerate or wouldn’t if I actually lived in a free world and had a choice. Is, having to pay taxes for the global elites power games. GW taxes, food hikes, paying for the military complex, etc. So they can control you via the biggest controlling tool, your wealth or lack of these days!

I go outside a lot; I am a bird and nature photographer among other things. I love nature and animals dearly. I’m not American, but I will have to agree with their position in some respects.

Let’s see:

We all try to do good, at our level, to minimize the impact on the environment. We were told to buy recyclable bags. We did. We recycle our stuff (just so it can go back into landfills anyway because it’s too expensive to recycle. Some of it, not all, but the irony is there). Am I ignorant, am I doing something I shouldn’t? What else can I do?

Nobody I know among my friends/family/acquaintances are ignorant individuals when it comes to environment, but we all have to drive to work. Would we drive something else if available? In a heartbeat.
Hybrid vehicles you say? Sure, but how can one afford that? A normal “dirty” car can be had for less than $ 20.000. The “clean” version: starts at $ 45.000. We have limited our travels, and most of us got into small cars, I can barely fit on mine .

Wherever I go I see homes and other small private business with their lights turned off at dusk. Just recently, I took a few pictures of some buildings belonging to “big business” lit up like Christmas trees. And no, they were not so high that the planes needed to “see them” and not bump into.

Just yesterday on the radio were discussing about the G8 summit and the position of “the other side of the world” when it comes to this climate change. I quote from memory: “Our main concern is the advancement of our economy, and not reducing the emissions. The “civilized” world can do it, but not us”. Don’t we live on the same planet?

A few days ago we were told we will be hit a new “carbon tax”, the same like UK. We are among the most taxed nations in the world.

As I said above, I don’t necessarily agree with the American position on this, but at least, it seems to me, they are more sincere. A clear position is better than an ambiguous one. It is just a money grab, as far as i'm concerned.

If there is a law, everyone should obey it, not only “some parts” of the world, while others go about killing species of animals and really harming the environment.

Originally posted by Iggus
The petition in the original post is signed by about 31000 scientists of whom just over 9000 have PhD's. I may be being a little snooty, but how much major science is done by people without a PhD?

Finally, the three authors. The first two are in their own science centre and are primarily in medical research, although they do have a political agenda against climate change. The third has been shown to have a dubious background in his science research, such as being funded by oil companies.

So all in all I would say that this petition certainly has me convinced that there is no such thing as AGW, after all all these excellent climate change, atmospheric, oceanographic scientists have been involved.

Come on give me a break.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by Iggus]

You make 9000 sound as if it is an insignificant number just because it is less than 31000. I would challenge you to find 9000 phds who are FOR man-made global warming/climate change. I suppose the oil companies are paying for all of these 9000 too?

In fact the oil company argument is a stupid one anyway. But it's the one that the Global Warming Cult always seems to focus on. Forget the science, go for the personal attacks. You assess the science, CO2 has never driven warming and water vapour is far more significant a greenhouse gas. Hey, let's ban water!!

I would point out the dubious past of Al Gore and that he's not a scientist and that many of the IPCC so-called experts weren't scientists, but that's pointless and achieves nothing.

The science argues firmly against global warming. And this can be cited in numerous peer-reviewed publications in journals such as Science, Nature etc. I challenge you to debate the science of it, not the people behind it on either side.