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Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
Hi Bsbray...
NIST used finite element modeling to model the events preceding the collapse.
Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
reply to post by jprophet420
JP,
Would you have expected it to topple like a tree? [i'm not being sarcastic)
Thanks
-Structural Engineer
Unfortunately, the experiment that NIST performed on a floor section of joists did not include columns, nor did it include any removed fire protection. This is an attempt to compare apples to oranges.
This is basic statics, basic engineering, basic mechanics of structures. If they can't refute the math, then perhaps they should realize that they're too far over their head to be rejecting or accepting the information presented.
After about 40 minutes, as I saw (I have telescopes, binoculars, etc.) the top segment of the building listing about 3 degrees, I left my apartment and went out to walk in the street. Buidlings collapse if they list more than 3 degrees. As I walked down Bleecker Street, people gasped as the building collapsed. Like Lord Jim, my imagination surpasses any reality. I should have stayed and watched. I did for the second tower.
...We watched the second building, and I noticed it was more than 3 degrees, but as the telescope revealed, that was because the beams were buckling on both sides. A building like the WTC does not 'break off in the middle' and fall like a tree.
Loizeaux said he had an enhanced video of the collapses, and he talked about them in a way that indicated he had watched the video more than once. "First of all, you've got the obvious damage to the exterior frame from the airplane—if you count the number of external columns missing from the sides the planes hit, there are about two-thirds of the total. And the buildings are still standing, which is amazing—even with all those columns missing, the gravity loads have found alternate pathways. O.K., but you've got fires—jet-fuel fires, which the building is not designed for, and you've also got lots of paper in there. Now, paper cooks. A paper fire is like a coal-mine fire: it keeps burning as long as oxygen gets to it. And you're high in the building, up in the wind, plenty of oxygen. So you've got a hot fire. And you've got these floor trusses, made of fairly thin metal, and fire protection has been knocked off most of them by the impact. And you have all this open space—clear span from perimeter to core—with no columns or partition walls, so the airplane is going to skid right through that space to the core, which doesn't have any reinforced concrete in it, just sheetrock covering steel, and the fire is going to spread everywhere immediately, and no fire-protection systems are working—the sprinkler heads shorn off by the airplanes, the water pipes in the core are likely cut. So what's going to happen? Floor A is going to fall onto floor B, which falls onto floor C; the unsupported columns will buckle; and the weight of everything above the crash site falls onto what remains below—bringing loads of two thousand pounds per square foot, plus the force of the impact, onto floors designed to bear one hundred pounds per square foot. It has to fall." [Note that many of Loizeaux's comments about the conditions of the towers were accurate, but that the assumed cause of collapse – floors pancaking – was not. Determining the actual cause of collapse would take much research.]
With ASD Steel, you have
Load Factors = 1.0 (or, in other words, no load factors)
Allowable stress reduction factor = 0.6 (yes it varies but let's use 0.6 for our conversation). This is applied to the yield stress - let's use 36 ksi as you used above.
This would mean that, under the actual loads (1.0 x load) you would design your member to not be stressed higher than 0.6 x 36 = 22ksi. Your safety factor then is 36/22 = 1.64.
With LRFD Steel, you have (per the IBC)
Load Factors for Dead = 1.2
Load Factors for Live = 1.6
Strength reduction factor = 0.9 for flexure
For a case where DL = LL your Load factor averages to 1.4.
So your safety factor is 1.4/0.9 = 1.56. In this case I've just used the single load combination of DL + LL (there are others of course) and looked at flexure only (shear has a different SRF).
Originally posted by bsbray11
Good luck, and may I suggest starting with their main hypothesis: the WTC tower trusses got hot, sagged, and by this mechanism were able to pull enough perimeter columns inward to cause the entire building to collapse.
Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
NIST used finite element modeling to model the events preceding the collapse.
Originally posted by Seymour Butz
WHAT ????
The trusses are attached to the concrete?
The trusses were attached to the ext and core columns.
The 4" concrete was poured over the corrugated steel decking.
Wow.....
Originally posted by Griff
Wow indeed. It would do you well to research a little before putting your foot into your mouth.