Common sense VS creationism

Welcome to the library!

There are two rooms in this library,

One has EVOLUTION over the door, the other has CREATIONISM over it.

You open the door to the first room and there are millions of books, publications, magazines, journals and scientific papers, the oldest being a 150 year old copy of the Origin of Species, the rest being research, updates, revisions, conclusions, tests, compiled data from all fields of science, all of it building on the stuff that came before, to offer a wealth of knowledge and support for that original book, and improvement and refinement of its theory.



The other room in the library also has millions of books in it, but these are all copies of the same book, a book that has dubious origins that claim to be roughly two thousand years old. This book is supposed to be the answer to everything, and if smashed repeatedly into your frontal lobe for long enough and from a young enough age, it will be the answer and as a bonus it will take up all available mental space, which should stop that painful process called thinking.

Now lets review that again:
150 years of gathering empirical evidence and publishing millions of publications that prove EVOLUTION conclusively...
or...
2000 years of re-printing the same book millions of times and failing for the entire time to gather any evidence whatsoever of ID/CREATIONISM...

My 2 cents.

There is nothing intelligent about ID it would be correct to say ID = Ideology an Dogma
I watched that documentary on PBS covering the trial in a school system that was forced to teach that dogma as science, teachers refused to teach religion as science and "Were Off" Violence, Tampering, Threats, Fire, Bigotry, Hatred, and lies all from religious supporters. What a disgrace Lies, False Witness, Violence! could the fabled 10 commandment be abused more by its supporters.

They did proved that ID was in fact a rewritten work by bible thumpers after they demanded copies of the original pre printed material they discovered all the bible references crossed out and replaced with weasel words ID. The majority of the ID experts refused to show in court to testify, only one of two out of 8-10 showed up. Those that showed were made to look the fool.

Every one should be urged to watch that documentary and it should be used in schools to show how intolerant some groups are and how far zealots will go to insure all people are not allowed to find out for themselves the basis of their beliefs is fables not fact.

I am a Martian and was created by magic.

I am a monkey and was created by a nice mix of cells and dust and chance.

It is not my shell that matters : )

Where did the life part come from?

Good post XYZER .

Some don't have common sense when clouded with religion...i've experienced it already in my short time on here and my rather longer time on earth.

It literally is brainwashing and if they didn't "get them" when they were kids....they'd have very little chance now.

Good to see there are some out with with real knowledge and reason and understanding of life.



[edit on 3/7/08 by blupblup]

Originally posted by XyZeR
Welcome to the library!

Well that’s a very clever analogy, but also a very biased one.

This book [the bible] is supposed to be the answer to everything.

Really?

if [evolution is] smashed repeatedly into your frontal lobe for long enough and from a young enough age, it will be the answer and as a bonus it will take up all available mental space, which should stop that painful process called thinking.

Isn’t it ironic that I can insert “evolution is” into your run on sentence and it is still reasonable?

My 2 cents.

This is why pennies should no longer be in circulation.

Seriously, that's your witty comment to my post ? LOL That's the best you could come up with ?

Originally posted by JPhish
Well that’s a very clever analogy,

but also a very biased one.

aha, let me guess ....Because you say so or... ?
I have no idea why you think it's a baised analogy, care to tell me why ?
It uses COMMON sense, somehting that religious people seem to fear, cause' it makes them THINK about their beliefs, and see how ridiculous they are.

Really?

YES really ! Time after time i try to debate Fundamentalist christians, and the ONLY argument they ever give me is "IT's IN THE BIBLE !!!!! GOD SAID SO" They use this shady badly distorted and translated ancient book to explain SCIENTIFIC questions. the bible is the only tool they have, and it's a broken one.

Isn’t it ironic that I can insert “evolution is” into your run on sentence and it is still reasonable?

It would be ironic if your analogy made ANY sense, but it doens't, at all...sorry to burst your bubble!
You see unlike creationism, Evolution has tons of evidence to support it,
It uses logic to determine something, and needs proof to back it up
Creationism doens't need that, as long as you find some shady quote in the Bible (whichever translation/interpretation or version of it) about what's beeing discussed, it's enough to be "evidence".

This is why pennies should no longer be in circulation.

Euh , What ? This is an argument in a debate for you ? It's seems like a cheap shot....

FYI i'm European and we use Eurocents

reply to post by astronomine


Were did we all come from? ah the BIG question. I do not know what the answer is with crystal clarity who does? BUT I do know and it is provable that the religion of man is all 100% pure home grown man made fables.

"In the beginning"! followed by everything made in seven days, proven wrong! wrong! wrong! so everything that follows has to be equally man made myth.

Who made the universe? Who made God? if we are just like him I ask myself, Why does he need a penis? who would he use it with? Is there a Ms. God ? Do they breath air though their nose? What blood type are they and do the need blood. An Angle (snicker) with a 10ft wing span would need 300lb of back muscle to make them work along with a tail ruder where none are shown in mythical drawings. The more one asks or thinks the sillier it becomes. So religions zealots want science and thinking outlawed like in last 2000 years.
"Eyes Open"

Originally posted by XyZeR
aha, let me guess ....Because you say so or... ?

Yes, that's why they call it a critique.

It would be ironic if your analogy made ANY sense, but it doens't,

incorrect; i'm stating something contradictory of the truth, in an amusing fashion. That's what irony is. This is really all i needed to hear to validate my original assumption that discussing this wasn't going to be worth my time. Your assertion which i quoted and altered is still viable as a biased statement.

the ONLY argument they ever give me is "IT's IN THE BIBLE !!!!! GOD SAID SO" - the bible is the only tool they have, and it's a broken one.

This is all very speculative.

You see unlike creationism, Evolution has tons of evidence to support it,
It uses logic to determine something, and needs proof to back it up
Creationism doens't need that, as long as you find some shady quote in the Bible (whichever translation/interpretation or version of it) about what's beeing discussed, it's enough to be "evidence"

All of this does not invalidate my satire. It is unrelated in context.

Euh , What ? This is an argument in a debate for you ? It's seems like a cheap shot....

it's not a cheap shot or an argument, it was a joke that apparently went over your head.

Perhaps the reason you don't understand me is because you're only using common sense?

[edit on 7/3/2008 by JPhish]

Originally posted by XyZeR
Now lets review that again:
150 years of gathering empirical evidence and publishing millions of publications that prove EVOLUTION conclusively...
or...
2000 years of re-printing the same book millions of times and failing for the entire time to gather any evidence whatsoever of ID/CREATIONISM...

so whether or not something is common sense depends upon how many books have been written about it?

which btw, they dont prove conclusively, because in the last 100 years, the theory of evolution has been reworked dozens of times.

reply to post by XyZeR


Interesting theory, although I thought threads like this were supposed to be in the BTS faith forum for now on.

Anyways, while we're on the subject of common sense, here are my two cents as well.

Does atheism lack common sense? Statistically it seems so.



According to the above pie chart, world wide 2% of people are atheists but if we add in all the non theist statistics, that brings us to approximately 20% of the world population that appear to not believe in a deity. That means there are approximately 80% theists in the world.

If the majority or 'common' belief is that there is a God, does that mean atheists lack common sense? Or perhaps since no specific belief holds the 51% majority that we all lack common sense?

A deep thought brought to you by Jack Handy.

Just wanted to throw that in since it matches the title and theme regarding common sense more than the original post does.

Originally posted by JPhish
Yes, that's why they call it a critique.

nope, sorry Critique, needs backing up, a reasoning behind it, you didn't give me that, you just posted my analogy was biased.... never why you thought it was biased...see my problem?

This is all very speculative.

No it is not, every fundamentalist i try to debate about this, uses this as his SOLE reasoning, "It's in the bible" is an argument for everything. they have no other legs (let alone facts) to stand on.

All of this does not invalidate my satire. It is unrelated in context.

Oh but it surley does, see, replacing "evolution" in my posted sentence, makes no sense whatsoever. It's not satire, it's nonsense....

it's not a cheap shot or an argument, it was a joke that apparently went over your head.

I'm truly Sorry i didn't get your "joke"...

in the last 100 years, the theory of evolution has been reworked dozens of times.

Indeed, and you use that as an argument for your case, but it's not fit for that.
You see the fact that the theory has been adjusted to reflect new found EVIDENCE should tell you a lot about the validity of the scientific theory.
To bad the bible doesn't do that eh ? It has been static for ages.

If the majority or 'common' belief is that there is a God, does that mean atheists lack common sense? Or perhaps since no specific belief holds the 51% majority that we all lack common sense?

first of , where did you get that pie chart ? How was it determined ?
To me that pie chart is a load of bs. Why didn't you use this one or this one and yet another
Because it contradicts yours ? Which one is the scientific one ?

IMHO Believing in a "god" whichever it may be, is not common sense. It's the opposite!
It's tradition, education and the choice of your parents/guardians, not your own. If you were born in a different country you might have believed in a different god(s), see my point?
Believing in God is not a situation you reasoned yourself in, it was done by others. I'll give you that spirituality is inherent to humans, but spirituality and religion are 2 separate things, at least to me.

I'll post the definition of "common sense" cause we seem to have a different perspective on it
Here's what the dictionary says:

common sense: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts

See that last word ? FACTS, not faith...

Btw, just to make sure, i'm not an athiest like the majority of you think

Originally posted by XyZeR

Indeed, and you use that as an argument for your case, but it's not fit for that.
You see the fact that the theory has been adjusted to reflect new found EVIDENCE should tell you a lot about the validity of the scientific theory.
To bad the bible doesn't do that eh ? It has been static for ages.

actually its the reverse. for example, mutations have taken the preferred position in evolution because the evidence just doesnt support gradual change.

even after 60 years of mutating flies, some scientists are even rethinking mutations because of EVIDENCE.

the funny thing about truth is that its static. it doesnt change because something "looks" like it contradicts.

Douglas Warney was convicted of killing someone and sent to prison. all the "evidence" looked like warney did it. but after 10 years DNA told a different story.

the truth was static, it did change. the interpretation of the evidence did.

Originally posted by XyZeR
first of , where did you get that pie chart ? How was it determined?

I snagged it off of Wikipedia.

To me that pie chart is a load of bs.

Why? It is not that different from the ones you posted.

Why didn't you use this one or this one and yet another
Because it contradicts yours ? Which one is the scientific one ?

Because mine was much prettier and crisper.

Here is a question for you. Why didn't you use THIS chart? Or THIS one? You could have totally used that as evidence to statistically show how us creationists lack 'common sense.' Typical man... making us women do all the work!

LOL, I can imagine all humans die on the planet,and another race comes to earth to recolonize.The see the great sky scrapers,They see al the roads.Do u think they will say,hmm i guess those just evolved outa rocks.
i doubt it.They mostlikely will think himm someone built those thats common sense.
Now look at the universe,Look at th magnificant sites to be seen everywhere from the lowest to the highest.Look at how life like a program will find a way to live anyway it can despite harsh condition.So should i look at the wonders of life around me and say hmm i guess everything just evovled,i Wonder what the drivin force for this evolving is hmm.Must just be something.yet there is no answer for why life is alive.
common sense tell me that theye is a driving lifeforce behind every living thing,i call it god,indians call it the great spirt,but becuse science has lost its soul they call it mindless evolution.
who created the first life so this "mindless" evolution could start??
science will say well this part of matter formed with this part of matter at exactly the right time.lol any detective will tell u there is no such thing a coincidence.If you so chosse to belive you are nothing more then a accident so be it ,i pity you,and prey for you.If you choose to say ba i have no father no creator,then whats the point of your life?woe be you the empty shell.I guess if you have no creator and you are just a accident then oyu should go slaughter people,and do everything that we deem "wrong". I mean you have no creator so who will judge you?
If men judge you, kill them since there is no god in your eyes how are you wrong?
Haha they answers are in front of your nose but the blind man connot see,Do you think love is just a accident,Do you think humans wanting to be decent to other humans is a accident?Do you think we just stood up as monkeys and said hey,Im gona go search the land?Do you think our drive to explore,and to create is just a accident,Who started the cycle?Was it by chance another accident?
If you look at the humans that do things that are aginst other human,that kill,that enslave the people,these are the ones that fall into the snare of beliveing there is no god,only evolution,so who will judge me?
enough said,My creator loves you,His hope is you would accept him, an dthat as a race we would all expand his creation and bring peace and love to all,and to the universe.just as a gardner once he planted the seed cares for it but dose not make,or tell hes plants how to grow,but watches and waits for the day of fruit , so is my creator.
This is what i belive,but like the gardeners plant it is up to you to grow,not up to god,creator,spirt what ever you would call him,he has many names.
on a side note i wonder why the new haldron collider is looking for something the scientist termed the "god partical",hmm maby ther are starting see that life isnt as simple or straightforwrd as evolutionist would like to tell you.
peace be with you.

Ah, common sense vs creationism. Watch this, you will not regret it. It's hilarious but the answer is here. Everything finally makes sense.


[edit on 8-7-2008 by Gigantopithecus]

reply to post by devareous

reply to Devarous
Your post sound like a dream about silly nonscientific fables and myths
You answered your your own question, Where did the universe come from? Where did God come from?
The current science answer is at least logical but God is just a wild guess and wishful thinking. Who made God ? What is the answer please tell me an make it good, no he alwayd was because so was the universe always was as well. Who made God and why does he look like us? if so what need would he/she/it have with human body parts Did he/she/it have a mom, Is there a Ms. God.
Religious people never have any solid answer just blinding faith, fables, myths and circular arguments. Religious folk refuse to except that others don't get all tingly and wicked excited about the bible, a book few have fully read and almost none understand who it was written by or what was left out, re-written, incorrectly converted from language to language or made up of even older stories that they were stolen from other Gods and religions. Google Mythra, he was the son of god born of a virgin birth day dec24th had 12 deciles died for his followers and arose from the dead, sounds like I heard all that before.
Your clearly making a circular argument Sciences have proof of evolution it is a real solid hands on touchable facts, but in no way rules out any Gods just religious foolishness about a 7 day universe and the whole complexity of our human race coming from two people when one is a clone of the first.
Your argument is based on your deep need for it to be real and everything else is religions man made nonsense.
Is there a God? this cannot be proven one way or the other, Religion on the other hand can be
dis-proven and has been most effectively.
God and religion are two different things.

My reply is the universe in it entirity if "GoD".It is of intelligent design.
it a large scale representation of the smallest of things,Atoms,cells ect... all reflect the same order as the unevirse.....The big bang was the universe,"god" takeing his first breath and filling the void of nothing with something....
That what god is it s life,Where there was nothing there is something creation....Evil is a force that wish's to take something , life ect,and make nothing.... God in reverse....God isnt a something u can pivture as a form,closest u can come to is all there is, is of intelligent design of a intelligent will,or force..The essance of all relgions that have any longterm roots of our world is that god is everything ,and in everything...
Thats why scientist are looking for the "god partical".the relize there is a force that holds everything togather,and makes all things form in a way fit to there function.
but in simple terms and not to cloud ur vision,Just thing from the smallest atoms, to the largest start systems, it all is a exact replacation of each other.Solar Systems work very much with the same dynamics as group of cells in the body.The order to all things is reflected in al things.
Hard to belive that u never though wow,the moon circles the earth,wich circles the sun,wich circles the milkyway.....much in the same way the nutronc circles the proton,the electron circles the proton/nutron atom,the atoms cirle each other creating a cell,the cells dance in unison forming a material..ect.
i seriously can see y anyone that truly looks in to the working of the universi,life,ourselfs,animal ect cant see that there is a intelligent design there,Y do most thing natrule for to the golden section motif?Way are all cells,planets,suns, ect round?
I have done my best to explain it antigonish,can u possible explain how everything that is in existance is a "accident"?Can u possibly explain What it is that holds all this matter togather in a form that is represented in the smallest and largest of all things?Can u explain why scientist are look for any they term the "God partical"?hollidron collider is what thats for.
ok i got a real easy one for u,Can u explain the simple and most abundent thing everywhere, Gravity?Can u manipulat gravity it being so common?Our falure to realy understand theing that have been with us forever is a reflection of how much we dont know..So in conclustion prove to me there is no inteligent design,there is now will of life to live.

Originally posted by XyZeR
Seriously, that's your witty comment to my post ? LOL That's the best you could come up with ?

I'm sorry, did you come here to argue your point or stir up trouble?

Originally posted by XyZeR
You open the door to the first room and there are millions of books, publications, magazines, journals and scientific papers, the oldest being a 150 year old copy of the Origin of Species

WOW!

WHAT AMAZING HISTORICAL VALUE THOSE BOOKS MUST HAVE!

Originally posted by XyZeR
The other room in the library also has millions of books in it, but these are all copies of the same book, a book that has dubious origins that claim to be roughly two thousand years old.

Nevertheless, those books gave people the inspiration to record events as they happened for the purposes of enlightening others as to the true state of affairs.

This has been going on for thousands of years - it is only because of this that we know so much about history.

If you need proof - look into the dark ages.

Naturally those records could probably be added to this section, as it was indeed scholars and scribes who recorded such events from the safety of their monastaries and abbeys.


Let's get one thing straight - are you attacking ID, or are you attacking Religion?


[edit on 8-7-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by XyZeR

 

Does atheism lack common sense? Statistically it seems so.



According to the above pie chart, world wide 2% of people are atheists but if we add in all the non theist statistics, that brings us to approximately 20% of the world population that appear to not believe in a deity. That means there are approximately 80% theists in the world.

Well, like the Bible, statistics can be interpreted in many different ways. Although I searched for the information and couldn't find it, I would be willing to bet that the percentage of atheists has gone up over the last 500 years or so.

Another chart I would like to see is one detailing how many religions have disappeared off the face of the planet. Off the top of my head there are the ancient Egyptians, ancient Greece and Romans, the Incas, Aztecs, and Mayans which most people are familiar with. Each with their own ideas about how the universe began and how the "gods" affected the environment around them. Usually anything that was not understood was thrown into the category of the gods.

So what does common sense say to us concerning religious ideas pre-dating all the modern religions? Common sense tells me that the idea of religion has a common ancestor. Common sense also tells me that this idea goes back to the point in our evolution when we began to become self-aware and curious about the world around us. When we were able to ask the question for the very first time "Why are we here?" As we began to spread out of Africa to cover the globe, this idea spread with us. And as we evolved into all the races you see today, the idea of religion evolved with us into each culture's specific ideas of the gods. How else can such a diversity in religions amongst peoples over time be explained?

Ironically, this original idea of religion probably helped bring our ancestors together, helping them to survive. Over the ages though, it is this evolution of religion which has done more to push people apart than to bring them together, as each group "knows" they are right and anyone else deserves to die for being a heretic.

Respectfully, this is my common sense view of religion.

Common Sense Dictates:

Einsteins general relativity demands a beginning to the universe. A beginning is a creation event. Relativity is a widely accepted theory i.e. "common". That is not in dispute. In addition most scientists accept the Big Bang cosmology as a creation event i.e "common". If you believe in a creation event you are indeed a creationist.

Thus common snese dictates all non-creationist scientists are whacko fringe psuedoscientists.

Now that's some real common sense.