Philsophical Discussion : Freedom of Speech vs Treasonous Actions On ATS...

Originally posted by Demandred
interesting wiki thread in relation to treason

en.wikipedia.org...

from what i can gather most people dont have to worry too much, however the laws in the US appear to be rather ambiguious and congress seem to be able to make the rules up as they go along.

For now, the definition of a "terrorist", or an act of "terrorism" is vague, and open to interpretation. It's when this stops being so, and that it is defined in the most extreme manner, down to specific acts that are a part of our everyday lives that we need to be worried.

This other thread here is a perfect example of what I am referring to :

Philosophical Discussion : What If Next Time You Clicked "Post New Topic" Made You A Terrorist?

When something this silly, so inane is to happen, then is when we truly are far off worse than Nazi Germany and a that a Government has gone mad with power.

Not one specific Government, but any Government of any nation.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by jitombe
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

So you think what you have to say on this site is interesting enough for govt folks to hear more from you?

You've nailed it in one blow. The stories we get are generally reposts of things from other places. If they were important, then the source would be watched, not the rumor-mongers.

This is a useful site because it's a news aggregator with more of a multinational flavor than many other sites. If dealing with a news report, you can often find quotes here on ATS from people local to the news item (I"m thinking of the Brits or South Africans or Palestinians or Syrians here commenting on stories.

The board moderators try to keep a reasonable profile (I usually don't try to make more than one or two posts in a topic now that I'm a moderator) and to keep flame wars from getting around. Certain topics don't belong on the board -- but we don't care if you write about them in a blog or go elsewhere and post. Religious recruiting and other recruiting isn't allowed here.

Every board has some sort of standard that the owner wants you to follow. A board for new mothers isn't going to let you post about collecting Uzis and guns on that site. A board for Chevy classic car owners isn't going to let you post about MLM business opportunities... and so on and so forth. So in one sense, there isn't "true freedom of speech" on ANY board (just try posting about some topics on a "freedom of speech" board and you'll find out how quickly it gets shut down or you're called a troll and are kicked out.)

News aggregator sites often get looked over because their readers can provide extra insight into a situation. Conspiracy sites get a lot of pretenders and hoaxers -- if you have questions, contact the admin (and if it's about a moderator, contact Bill or Simon directly.)

I've dealt with (on another site) law enforcement officials investigating a crime (we had a pedophile and he was stalking a 13 year old girl.) So far, nothing of this sort has happened here.

Great thread SKL, one that requires a little thought before responding.

Do I practice free speech here? Absolutely. Could it be considered an act of treason? As you mentioned, the definitions of "treason" and "terrorist" are so vague now, that it would probably depend on who's reading. So, in summation, yes and yes.

If one were so inclined, and spent long enough on the task, I postulate that just about any member here, with more than 5 posts, could be painted as a treasonous terrorist. Six degrees of separation and all that... Given enough time and resources, we could all be connected in some way with known terror suspects, and our posts here served up and construed as evidence of a terroristic threat.

However, I don't necessarily think that the powers that be come to places like ATS looking for targets to arrest, err, detain, but rather to take the temperature of certain sects of the population. What are we discussing? What consensus's do we arrive at? How many of our small sample of society feel a certain way. Is a small tidbit of obscure truth edging it's way to the surface? What subject is next on the disinfo agenda?

Here, we spew forth viewpoints and knowledge of obscure topics that none of us would likely "chat" about in any type of government interrogation. Just as the rest of us, I suppose that "they" would come here seeking information, and they're learning just as much about us, as we are them. Ever wonder if a particular discussion here on ATS has changed the course of events? Ever wonder if some type of scheme was postponed, re-planned, or called off because some "end of the world wacko" put the pieces together before the fact? How many "tin foil hat predictions that never come true", never come true because we've discussed it?

Honestly and personally, sometimes I rewrite posts all over, and even occasionally don't post in a certain topic, as my own paranoia gets to me occasionally. While I'd never post anything that would land me in hot water in a court of law, we know military tribunals follow different rules...

Interesting questions.

Freedom of speech. Certainly I believe that every post I and most of us make embrace that concept. We are free to think, to be wrong, to discuss. We are also free to NOT exercise our freedom of speech.

Treason. I think it's a question of intent, regarding treason. If a person's intent is to intentionally aid an enemy of your nation -- military intel, weapons, strategic intel, suggestive plots to assasinate/injur, etc. then I think that is most likely treasonous. I don't think treasonous things happen here at ATS, or I've not observed any such.

Merely talking about your government or nation in a disfavorable way, questioning, probing for information, discussions, accusations....... at least insofar as the U.S. goes, I think that was what the creators of the Constitution intended -- to challenge, to make the government accountable.

Does anyone else but me hear a fife?

[edit on 1-7-2008 by argentus]

reply to post by Unit541


Thanks for the interesting post in reply to the philosophical question I asked of ATS'ers.

I think it's interesting to see just far out of whack our Government is going to go, if we as a people do not do the right thing to stop them.

at this point in time in the USA, it doesn't matter weather what you say on any message board, chat, IM ect. Eventually they will pick apart what you say. They will get whatever Intel they need. If you're high on their intel list, your already flagged for 'possible' domestic enemy.

I know how ridiculous that sounds but, if you've read up on most of the changes in the courts, laws passed, sign-offs (you'll have to seek that one yourself), anything that has to do with anything since 9/11, government secretly tapping Americans for decades, gas prices at all time high and officials trying to do what they can to stop it with no avail.......

trust me.....they will and can do what they want... when they want. I'll just take the stance that there is no freedom of speech and everything is accountable to treason....why? Better to think the water is boiling than to think it's lukewarm. Personally, I fully believe they know most of us see and know what is really going on and they're already fully prep'd on the contingency.

To be a warrior, you need to think like one.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


I don't worry about the law enforcement agents being on here (besides the fact that I personally never do anything illegal) because, doesn't Canada GCHQ suck up all domestic US phone calls, text messages, and presumably internet posts anyway, under Echelon, and make all that available to the NSA (avoiding the domestic surveillance restrictions on US agencies spying on Americans)... They have got ev-er-reee-thing, and they've had it forever...That's my understanding, but I'm a non-read-in wog, so...

First off, I have to point out that, even though all government Officers (all three Branches on both State & Federal levels) must swear/affirm a legally-binding Oath to obey the Constitution, the USA is Constitutionally & legally bound to be a Republic form of government...Specifically termed as a "Constitutional Republic." Before we can judge the difference between Freedom of Speech & Treason, we must, by default, see what the Constitutional definitions are.

In the 1st Amendment, Freedom of Speech is not specifically defined, therefore we must look into the meanings of this term by how it was defined at the time they used this term. Another way to determine what the framers of the 1st Amendment actually meant is to also look at the Congressional Journals at that time to see how they spoke during the debates that concerned the Bill for the 1st Amendment before they actually legislated it into an Amendment.

Right here is the predominant opinion of scholars as to the primary intent of "Freedom of Speech":

...the First Amendment is the single most important part of the Constitution. It protects some of the most basic human rights and reflects a view of the dangerous places government might tread.

The ability to speak your mind is a right that Americans take for granted. Imagine being too frightened by the possible consequences of speaking out to actually do so. Your opinion would not matter - even your vote would be corrupted. Even as important is the right to petition your government - not only can you have an opinion about your government, the government must listen to you...

So if this is correct, then it cannot be considered "treason" to speak out against the government (at least, the USA government)...Should the government itself be getting out of line. Should the government sanction a citizen for exercising a fundamental Right, then the government itself would be committing a violation of its own legally-binding Oath of Office to uphold the Constitution. This is what the Right to Freedom of Speech meant to the Founding Forefathers.

Even though the Freedom of Speech was not specifically defined within the body of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights directly, the term "Treason" is specifically defined in:

Article 3, Section 3, Clause 1
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Bold emphasis above is mine.
However, the modern definition of treason is somewhat different:

Treason
treason n the offense of attempting to overthrow the government of one's country or of assisting its enemies in war
Source: New Merriam-Webster's

So, in order to reduce the confusion between these two definitions, we must first figure out the difference between Constitutional Treason & "regular" treason...

So, by the "regular" definition of treason, the federal government as it exists & operates now have committed (in the past & the present) various acts of treason against the Constitutionally/legally-binding Oaths of Office...They have, in effect, "overthrown" the Constitutional Republic of America & took power for themselves, calling it a Democracy! Granted, the Constitution itself contains certain elements of Democracy, but also defines certain limitations & restrictions to all areas of government, even the Democratic areas.

Also, by granting undue influence & privileges to Big Corporations (BTW, corporations are not required to swear/affirm any Oath to the Constitutional Republic) & by continually degrading the Bill of Rights (through all three Branches of the government), the current government actually commits Constitutionally-defined Treason against the People & the Nation by "giving them (the corporations) Aid and Comfort" even to the extent that the government continues to commit more violations against the Constitutional Rights of the People.
Ironic, isn't it? That the government as it operates today (under excessive corporate influence & control) actually commits the same crimes (through the use of oppressive-economy) against the People as the English Charters did, which was one of the very root-causes for the Colonies to fight the War of Independence! In the Declaration of Independence, one of the Indictments against the King of Britain was, "For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:"
Remember the Alamo, hell! Remember the Boston Tea Party!

Originally posted by astronomine
It is good that they are here and watching, because it says that we are on to something and trains us to dissect posts and thoughts to reveal the truth and the core...
...We will constantly be tested in the future, assuringly to a higher, more persistent degree than even now, so I am glad for the practice to dance around these undercover folks. Welcome to ATS ya'll!

I also figure that, if I post something juuuuuussst right, maybe I could get one of these "monitors" to change his mind & turn against his own corrupt masters...We really do need more whistleblowers!

Originally posted by Demandred
...congress seem to be able to make the rules up as they go along.

Well, the President does too...Even though Article 1, Section 1 clearly states:

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

What? Doesn't Bush understand what the word "all" means? What else are "Executive Orders" & "Signing Statements" doing, except to usurp the Powers of Legislation away from Congress?
Not to mention that the Judiciary (having been "getting stacked" in favor of political agendas since Carter's term) has been "re-interpreting" laws & previous court-precedence against the People.

Originally posted by Byrd
...I usually don't try to make more than one or two posts in a topic now that I'm a moderator...

So that's why I haven't seen much of you around here lately...I gotta admit I miss how you used to get more involved as a poster. Just because you're a Mod doesn't mean you can't post as a regular person too...I don't see how the two "sides" can't be reconciled. You've always brought good, solid info before & I've always appreciated that.


Since one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist...
...Have I just been exercising Free Speech, or have I been committing treason?

Of Course there are questionable members on this site, its just the way it goes. If I can find out someone else's IP address (accidently cuz I'm not that tech savvy), then imagine what THEY can do. I'm sure someone on this site, knows who I am, and where I live, and how much money I make. I know that - and that is a risk I take, because I enjoy interacting with people of similar interests as me.

Originally posted by jitombe
So you think what you have to say on this site is interesting enough for govt folks to hear more from you?

Its not just what SKL has to say, its what we ALL have to say. Of course they want to know what we have to say...we're the people they want to control - they want to be prepared right? Everything we say is interesting, we're the free-thinkers, that makes us a threat.

First of all, govts spying on their own people has been going on for thousands of years and it will continue to happen. It just a way of control and it happens, deal with it.

Exactly...Now... I don't want to be rude. Or mean - I would hate to offend you. BUT, my question is.... was your post meant to come off as condescending? As if we should just "deal with it"? Or...was it meant to be more informative, and was it my mistake at misinterpreting?

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Is it right to say the things you say within the bounds of ATS?

Yes. As long as the Terms & Conditions are being met. As long as I am showing fellow memebers the respect that they deserve, and I expect in return. As long as I am still given the Right to Freedom of Expression then I will continue to exercies it, without harming anyone else in the process.

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms: laws.justice.gc.ca...

Are you practicing Freedom of Speech?

I am practicing Freedom of Speech - when I open my mouth and voice my opinions to people who feel like listening. Freedom of Expression - when I express my thoughts and my beliefs nonverbally. Freedom of Belief - I think for myself, no one else can do it for me. Freedom of Peaceful Assembly - Here on ATS could be considered Peaceful Assembly. I am constanly exercising my rights as a Canadian Citizen. Although, in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms it doesn't actually say "Freedom of Speech."

Or are you in fact practicing Treasonous Actions, which you can be tried for War Crimes over?

I am given the right of Belief and Expression. How I choose to Express my Beliefs about the Current Governments, as long as I'm not hurting anyone in the process, is my right. I will also stand by everything I say. If I didn't mean what I said - I wouldn't say it to begin with. If I am tried for treason, it'll be beacuse I'm one of the ones left who still thinks for themselves. It'll be because I oppose the NWO. It'll be becuase I will have lost faith in my Government. All of which, I will have been provoked to do, as a result of their inability to lead and tell the truth.

When standing up for what we believe, becomes Treason, it is then that we will be Guilty. Until then, we are all just human beings, exercising our Human Rights.

- Carrot

Honestly,

I could care less what the government reads what I write on here.

The government is full is con artists and slobs. No, I don't respect them, not one bit nor do I care for them. Yes they are responsible for the death of many people overseas, civilians and soldiers together.

Personally, it all makes me sick when I hear that freedom of speech can be transformed into treason. I call BS on that one.

If one were ever to be on trial for simply saying "I don't like America," then I'm off to Canada. I will be ashamed to have such disgrace of a governmental and judicial system.

F the US government.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by GorehoundLarry]

I think it's far too late to have this discussion.

The lines are already drawn, and the sides have already been chosen. It isn't the government versus the people, however, because the dividing line separates government employees from one another and citizens, too.

The Soviet Union had a plan to draw upon its intellectual capital and bring the best and brightest among them to Moscow, where they would have a brilliant center of thought that would rival the West. Of course, once you put thinkers together, they begin to share ideas. When people begin to share ideas, those ideas evolve and draw in more people. The Russkies soon realized that those ideas were a threat to their power. It's true. Ideas are a threat to any centralized power. Even in America.

You want to be dangerous? Stop worrying about "them". Be happy. Love yourself and other people. Be good. Be honest. Keep talking about what is good and what is right, and don't let anybody goad you into fear or anger. That is the only way the bad guys can possibly win - by pushing you off balance and making you appear militant or extreme. Kill 'em with calmness.

I'm afraid even that won't work forever, but remember what Yeltsin said: "You can make a throne out of bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long."

reply to post by applebiter


agreed

reply to post by applebiter


In other words, you have given up and or grown to such a state of apathy, that you are a willing and subservient person.

While I was mentioning doing the right things within the bounds of ATS, I did not actually mean as Carrot referred to in her post, as within T & C of ATS.

I was instead referring to was it Freedom of Speech you are practicing within ATS bounds, or in fact Treason. While yes, we have the symbolism of Freedom of Speech, people like George W Bush, Dick Cheney, and Condoleeza Rice will wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Then what are they waiting for you ask?

Why of course, the next "terrorist event" which they can then manipulate to enact Martial Law, and invoke actions like Rex-84 into action.



Wikipedia - Rex 84 - Readiness Exercise 84

[edit on 2-7-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Why are you insulting me? I live a very simple life. Sometimes I paint houses or lay tile. Sometimes I design database schemas or code in PHP. I play with the cats. I visit with my high school friends and we play music. Life is good, and I don't worry too much about "them".

Let me tell you about something called COINTELPRO. It was an FBI operation that began monitoring student newspapers on campuses across the country at a time when young Americans were becoming radicalized - the Vietnam Era. At first, they only planted moles in the staff. In a few years, the FBI was actually establishing radical movements as "magnets" to draw in (entrap) people who might never even have been so engaged with radical politics, otherwise.

It's the nature of the beast. You might as well ask a chef not to graze as he cooks. It has happened, it is happening, and it will continue to happen. You need to know this when you walk in the front door or you are nothing but fodder. Understand?

[edit on 2-7-2008 by applebiter]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas



You made me think I may have read applebiters post wrong.

I think you're right lol


thank you.

Originally posted by applebiter
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

Why are you insulting me?

That wasn't an insult in the least, it was an observation, based on what you said, in that it's too late. That is apathy speaking, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course I understand that, and I have read countless books on the F.B.I. as well as COINTELPRO. I know the complictness of Government goons, and they're undercover work to sucker in idiots.

This isn't My first rodeo.

[edit on 2-7-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

If the members here at ATS are upstanding citizens of whatever country they call home they have absolutely no worries.

Originally posted by BlindWatcher1
If the members here at ATS are upstanding citizens of whatever country they call home they have absolutely no worries.

..in today's America, the silliest thing will get you in trouble. Doesn't matter if you're such an upstanding citizen or not.

Besides....what is an upstanding citizen of America anyway? One who believes all the lies the president and the government has told...?

Enlighten me.

reply to post by GorehoundLarry
Get a life there Lar. People like you think that everyone in the USofA will be drug, beaten and taken to the nearest concentration camp and put to death. Where do you people get this %^%&&*. I'll tell you where, from some other moron who thinks the government is out to kill everyone who doesn't fit into there coven of so called lies. You people perpetuate the rumor and so on and so on until you start believing in each others manure.

What a country huh? You can go on a discussion board and trash your own government and still wake up the next morning with your life in tact. Better watch out though they may be coming for you next!

[edit on 7/2/08 by BlindWatcher1]

reply to post by BlindWatcher1


While I will respectfully agree or disagree with you, or other posters, I will ask that you respectfully reply to posts on this thread.

Whether you agree with anyone's posts here, is irrelevant, your decorum however is necessary.

Moderator's will tell you the same exact thing. Thanks.



[edit on 2-7-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]