A Time for Choosing

Originally posted by dariousg
reply to post by Cool Hand Luke

 

And how many suicide bombers were there BEFORE America entered that war? It's a reasonable question. Here is the answer. ZERO!

It is a reasonable question. There have always been suicide bombers to strike against america. Pearl Harbor? But what has that got to do with anything?

That is NOT why we are there. I get sick and tired of people spilling out hogwash when it comes to the reasons for being in Iraq. We were LIED into Iraq because Georgie Porgie wanted to get his big piece of the oil pie. Period.

Really? Because by all our estimates we have enough oil in North America for a long long time. I thought it was to remove an oppressive dictator and place a strategic base in the ME since wiping one of America's allies off the map became en vogue.

Now they are trying to spin the fact that the commission found them guilty of lying about the intel.

Who is spinning who? Was Saddam not dangerous? Could he not have in the future rebuilt his military? his weapons? Should US just let him be knowing that he was still killing his own people and possibly rebuilding his military?

Because remember, it's not our troops that chose to start this war. It was the rich bastards that are getting fatter and fatter by the day off of this war.

I agree troops do not choose what country they go to war with. That is the job of Commander in Chief. Yes certain people are profiting off of the war. Does that mean they went to war strictly for money?

They are told where to go and what to do and they are taught not to question orders. It's said to say but I think more and more should begin to question them. Wait, they are.

Let them question. But when you join the military, you follow orders. Otherwise there would be no direction and troops would be useless.

So let's be clear on why we are in Iraq. It's part of the plan. First on the list was Afghanistan. Second was Iraq. Third is Iran. Fourth and last is China,
Link to info on "Rebuilding America's Defenses"...

I have read some of that document before. Is there something wrong with the plan to modernize the rest of the world in the name of security for the whole world? Is it wrong to want people to have the ability to choose their government? Is it wrong to want to supply people with food, clean water, education, jobs? Maybe we should go back to the stone age, would that make you happy?

Also, a nice little bit that I truly enjoy is the fact that they state it would take roughly 100 years of work for this to take place.

Perhaps you have a plan to do it faster? Is it wrong to be realistic with time tables?

That the only way we could move it along faster is in the event of a major catastrophe such as "Another Pearl Harbor".

Lets go back in time. Its the 1940's, the nazi's and the japanese are taking over much of the eastern world. What was America doing? Nothing. Until what happened? Pearl Harbor. Only when its people were shaken out of apathy did they step up to the plate and win that war.
Same thing here but on a smaller scale.
The writers of that document knew that America would not go to war unless provoked. The middle east was the new fascism that was growing. Do we just sit back let it happen? Do we allow another hitler to rise and gain strength? Or do we attack so that casualties are minimized before it gets out of hand?

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Great thread and great video!!

Damn, Reagan was a great President and such a great speaker. Not many people know that he wrote all his own speeches unlike current politicians.

Thank you. I dare anyone to watch that video and not feel reinvigorated.

It just reinforces by beliefs on how correct Reagan was and how great of a leader he turned out to be for America. If not for Reagan, our country would have been dead a long time ago due to the liberal mindset of appeasement and government intervention from cradle to grave.

Perhaps america would still be under the spell of Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society"

Liberals are once again beginning to infect the mass populace with their outdated and dangerous ideals. Hopefully after this coming election, we conservatives will be able to find and elect another true American like Reagan to help fix the coming downturn of America due to the liberal agenda.

I'm really hoping that McCain does win. Not only because of his foreign policy but his energy policy as well. I'm not a big fan of Obama's policies that talk of appeasement and more tax and spend on social programs that do the exact opposite of their intent.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

A democracy? We were set up as a republic not a democracy.

Please explain major difference between the two and how it is has affected the country negatively.

A democracy lets crazed groups like the Christian right to hijack the direction of our country.

If there is one gripe I have with Bush it was that he maybe mixed a little too much religion in with the politics.

But do the christians not have a right to vote for a president that shares their values? Why didn't the non christians come out and vote then? IF they did vote, why did their man not win? Was it because in an election the person with the most votes wins?

We were a republic, big business wants you to believe in democracy.

Please explain how big business has negatively affected your life

Oh and Regan ruined our middle class and set up the media control.

Reagan got rid of the social programs that were expensive and didn't force people to work for their money. Was he right or wrong for doing this? I guess its a matter of perspective.

Media control? Please clarify

He was one of the most misguided presidents ever.

I disagree. But I do believe he was the most idealistic presidents ever.

He had good intentions but was manipulated to play ball with his CIA vice president,

Well at least you can admit his intentions were good

when he had shown signs of waking up to the game played on him the had an assassination attempt to get him back to their reality.

Well I guess I should have expected this since we are on a conspiracy site after all

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]

Originally posted by mrmanuva
It makes me laugh when people talk about nation states, as if they have any real signifiance in the present day world. Talk about what America has done for the world all you want. However, while you do it, the same puppet masters that pull the strings of Europe, are pulling the strings of America.

Thank you for your view on the world. I too did laugh but it wasn't about nation states, it was your post.

Did Jordan Maxwell tell you that? Alex Jones? Michael Tsarion? David Icke?etc, etc...

Here's a question for you, are these puppet masters after you? I mean you spilled the beans on their existence, surely they are not happy about it.

Originally posted by Cool Hand Luke
I'm really hoping that McCain does win. Not only because of his foreign policy but his energy policy as well. I'm not a big fan of Obama's policies that talk of appeasement and more tax and spend on social programs that do the exact opposite of their intent.

I hope McCain wins also but I will be holding my nose while I vote for him. While I do agree with him on some major issues, I also disagree with him on other major issues. He is not a true conservative and barely a republican. My main reason for voting for him will be because of the supreme court. American cannot handle 1 more liberal on the court.

reply to post by Cool Hand Luke

reply to post by Cool Hand Luke


lol no,let's just skip the name calling.

Is that any less of a reason to remove a dictator?

Well,that's partially the result of it.
What i'm talking about is how the whole thing started and it's more that obvious that it started by looking for an excuse to start the war.
Changing the reason now and then shows that the intentions were far from what we heard and surely not good ones cause,if they were good,they wouldn't have to make a bunch of others.

When a leader of country says they will wipe another country of the map and that other country happens to be one of your allies, what do you do?

You have a point there and it's about that statement about wipping out Israel.But you have to admit that they're cornered...Any country,big or small,rich or poor would have the same stance more or less.They were and are provoked.
Indeed the US and Israel are allies but if the US fight for freedom,justice and peace shouldn't they try to talk to Isreal about at least turning down the pressure on Iran istead of preparing to back Israel up and crush Iran?

On the contrary, I see most of the threads on ats and most media outlets flaming America. I felt compelled to interject at least a little more to the other side of the argument.

Well,it's true that most people in here do "flame" America.It's mostly my fault on this one since i kinda "mixed" two thoughts that i had into one (always being hasty ).

I think it takes "balls" to realize freedom has always come at a price. We only need to look at the war of independence, civil war, WW1, WW2, cold war etc etc... to realize that.

No need to tell me about that.I've been born and raised in a country (Greece) that even our flag "talks" about freedom.It's something we learn to love and support at any cost.
But what happened in Iraq is far from that.

At least when i see Americans protesting etc i get hopes that things can get better.

I hope that you don't mind but i wanted to quote a couple of things that you said in another reply.

Really? Because by all our estimates we have enough oil in North America for a long long time. I thought it was to remove an oppressive dictator and place a strategic base in the ME since wiping one of America's allies off the map became en vogue.

What i agree with is about the strategic base in ME.
Other than that,about the oil,i don't really know if the US do or don't need more oil but that doesn't seem to stop em from taking under control more recources.

Who is spinning who? Was Saddam not dangerous? Could he not have in the future rebuilt his military? his weapons? Should US just let him be knowing that he was still killing his own people and possibly rebuilding his military?

The problem is that if all countries were thinking like that all of them would be fighting each other now.I'm sorry but you can't start a war cause the other country might be a threat for you in the future.It's like convicting a man for a crime he didn't do.


Anyway,even though we don't agree i'm glad that you just picked your side,have your beliefs and that's it.
What totally leaves me stunned though is the "scenario" that i tend to see here and there.The one that mrmanuva shared.

I mean,believing that your country is either right or wrong is one thing but coming with a scenario to appear your country as a victim of an evil,secret powers (some times even non-human,like i've read in other threads) coming from Europe is something...hell i don't know how to describe it...!

It's like,seeing the errors but coming up with an excuse that just puts the blame to someone else so you wont feel guilty about anything.
-------
I reached the limit of characters...

reply to post by Cool Hand Luke


Why would they be after me? Im but one man, that can see clearly, they have bigger fish to fry. Carry on living in your safety bubble, believing all the spin and propaganda, spend your life consuming, putting more money and control into the hands of those that run things. The tactics used have been proven time and again. Are you denying that the NWO exists? You really have issues if you do, since they even say they exist. Look back at some of the speeches made by the supremos, read the mission statements of the organisationts they control, witness their actions.

They want a single world government, and they have already put it in motion. Is there not and EU? Are the preliminary plans for a North America Union not already on the table? Are chipped ID cards not on the agenda? Im not some gullible sheep that believes in reptilians controlling earth, I am an economist, that can see with whom the control of money and major industry lies. The fact is these people control the world, whether they have a plan for world domination or not. Pay even the slightest bit of attention to them, their words, their actions, and it is obvious domination is indeed their plan.

Let me say a couple of things.

First of all,i see some Americans talking about Europe as a whole,as one country.Don't get fooled by the "United Nations" thing,those countries are still different,with their own thoughts and actions and offcourse...names.Thinking of them as one nation is the first step to get the wrong picture.That's how this whole scenario starts imo.

Now,as far as controlling etc etc,believe me when i'm saying that if not all,most of em,are a bit scared of the US one way or another.
If you think that the power of the US is limited to the wealth,technology and military weapons you're wrong.They can also use the diplomatic way and in my opinion that's equal bad as a war.
Some countries are just following the US simply because they don't wanna face em one way or another.

So the whole scenario isn't really possible,sorry. (allthough i know that it's gonna be around for quite a long time)

Originally posted by Oceanborn
reply to post by Cool Hand Luke

 

lol no,let's just skip the name calling.

Agreed

Changing the reason now and then shows that the intentions were far from what we heard and surely not good ones cause,if they were good,they wouldn't have to make a bunch of others.

Let me put it this way, the ME had a growing anti american/anti israeli sentiment who were extremely fanatical. Does the US wait for the fight to come to them(or Israel for that matter) or do they stop the bleeding at the wound?

but if the US fight for freedom,justice and peace shouldn't they try to talk to Isreal about at least turning down the pressure on Iran istead of preparing to back Israel up and crush Iran?

No, here's why. Lets not forget how Israel came to be. Nazi's had nearly wiped the jews off the face of the earth because in that situation, they could not fight back. They were displaced with no country to call home. Now they do have a country and yet again they are threatened with being exterminated. They have the ability to defend themselves, do they use it?

In light of what I'm typing, I do realize it is a very simplistic overview of a complicated situation and do really hope that the tensions go down.

(always being hasty

).

You can also count me guilty as charged of that

But what happened in Iraq is far from that.

I don't think so. If we look back at every war in the 20th century, during any war most of the population was unhappy with it. Its only when a country is declared the victor that people tend to support the war because people want results and want them now!!! right now!!!

At least when i see Americans protesting etc i get hopes that things can get better.

Just like any other war in history

but that doesn't seem to stop em from taking under control more recources.

Well in Iraq if you're gonna start to build an economy from scratch, oil is a good place to start.

It's like convicting a man for a crime he didn't do.

And what crime exactly was Saddam not guilty of? That government commited genocide, stole money from the people, and anyone that questioned him was either locked up or killed. Sounds like a class act

Anyway,even though we don't agree i'm glad that you just picked your side,have your beliefs and that's it.

Right back at ya . I really hope that not coming across as an a@@, because that is not my intention. Sometimes I love playing the devil's advocate just to make people think. And let me say this, even though I disagree with you on some points, I understand where you are coming from.

What totally leaves me stunned though is the "scenario" that i tend to see here and there.The one that mrmanuva shared.

Agreed.

It's like,seeing the errors but coming up with an excuse that just puts the blame to someone else so you wont feel guilty about anything.

It's the infamous blame game that people use to justify living what they consider "crappy" lives. I am guilty of living that way for awhile in the past.
The problem here is many don't realize how great we have it. I mean we have shelter, food, water, technology litterally at our fingertips. If you don't like your job, quit it. If aren't making enough money, go and make some more. If you want to go to school, go. Nothing is stopping you except for yourself. Sorry about the rant, I do that sometimes

[edit on 2-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]

Originally posted by Cool Hand Luke
When I think of America, this is what comes to mind.

Unfortunately these days the media chooses to call America war mongers, and making America feel guilty about spreading goodness throughout the world just like they always tried to do in the past.

Fact: every country that America participated in the past is now better off than before America sat back.

I felt compelled to post this video to show what America stands for as I always understood it (I am a canadian actually) because these days it seems that many Americans would rather live on their knees, than die on their feet.

What a find!Thanks for posting this.We are indeed in a pitched battle and the line has been drawn.Radicals whether in politics,religion,or societies will not subvert the West without a fight.Communists have changed their face.They have changed their tactics.But their strategy is still the same.I will not help those who seek to destroy America from within and will expose them for what they are.

We will deal with problems of North America and Europe after the threat of those who seek to destroy us ,our countries and our childrens future.In the 1930s Hitlers rise to power was largely ignored.Now generation X finds itself in a VERY similar situation with the rise of radical Islam and increasingly radical old foe communism who still believe a socialist state on a global scale can work.It failed in Russia and its failing in China.

My position is very clear.

The West stands united against the global threat of terrorism.
John Mccain 08!

Originally posted by mrmanuva
reply to post by Cool Hand Luke

 

Why would they be after me? Im but one man, that can see clearly, they have bigger fish to fry.

Who are these bigger fish? Why haven't they been fried yet?

Carry on living in your safety bubble,

You mean reality? I will thank you

believing all the spin and propaganda,

I could throw that statement right back at ya and IMO it would be more truthful.

spend your life consuming,

Well I do need to eat, no? I do need a place to rest my head,no? I do need clothes on my back, no? I do enjoying conversing and exchanging ideas on the internet, perhaps you don't? Well, how did end being able to type this post? On an imaginary computer? How did you get this computer? Did you not purchase it?

putting more money and control into the hands of those that run things.

Well apparently you are too otherwise I would not be able to post a reply to this character named mrmanuva. How does that make you feel?

The tactics used have been proven time and again.

Apparently you keep falling for it

Are you denying that the NWO exists?

In the context that you put it, yes. Such an organization does not exist.

You really have issues if you do, since they even say they exist. Look back at some of the speeches made by the supremos, read the mission statements of the organisationts they control, witness their actions.

Maybe you should look back at those speeches and don't use someone else's interpretation of them. If you still think that there is a literal group of people calling themselves the NWO, then there is nothing I can do for you

They want a single world government, and they have already put it in motion.

Great! Let me know when they are finished.

Is there not and EU?

Yes there is a EU

Are the preliminary plans for a North America Union not already on the table?

Probably

Are chipped ID cards not on the agenda?

Absolutely

Im not some gullible sheep that believes in reptilians controlling earth,

Great! You had me worried there for a second

I am an economist, that can see with whom the control of money and major industry lies.

Giving millions of people jobs to give them the ability afford the necessities and "nice-ities" of life is not a lie.

The fact is these people control the world, whether they have a plan for world domination or not.

Well which one is it? Do they control the world already or do I have to wait for them to make it official?

Pay even the slightest bit of attention to them, their words, their actions, and it is obvious domination is indeed their plan.

You pay attention to these words and mannerisms because someone else told you too. In fact these same people told you how to interpret them because they proclaimed that you cannot think for yourself. Isn't that the Orwellian doublespeak they keep telling you to watch out for?

Has anything you have learned from these people made your life better? How much fear do you now have on a daily basis because you have "learned" this material? What exactly has the government or these corporations done to you personally that has limited you in any way?

Here's some advice... stop being so paranoid and get out there and experience life.

reply to post by Cool Hand Luke

Let me put it this way, the ME had a growing anti american/anti israeli sentiment who were extremely fanatical. Does the US wait for the fight to come to them(or Israel for that matter) or do they stop the bleeding at the wound?

Well,i do agree but personally i don't believe that the US are provoked at a point that they should be ready for a war or anything.Don't get me wrong,i do believe that things have their limits.Actually,my own country is getting provoked all the freaking time and trust me,i'm not happy at all of us being way too patient.I guess our argument on this very thing is based on POV so nothing we can do about it. (i'll talk about Israel in the next part)

No, here's why. Lets not forget how Israel came to be. Nazi's had nearly wiped the jews off the face of the earth because in that situation, they could not fight back. They were displaced with no country to call home. Now they do have a country and yet again they are threatened with being exterminated. They have the ability to defend themselves, do they use it?

I agree with everything but they are threatened now because they want a part of Iran claimming that it's rightfully theirs.(except if i don't know things so well and i'm not sarcastic or anything.if i'm wrong on this please correct me )

I don't think so. If we look back at every war in the 20th century, during any war most of the population was unhappy with it. Its only when a country is declared the victor that people tend to support the war because people want results and want them now!!! right now!!!

"At least when i see Americans protesting etc i get hopes that things can get better."

Just like any other war in history

Well,i guess these are based on our POVs so it wouldn't do any good to reply,i'd probably ruin the convertation.

Well in Iraq if you're gonna start to build an economy from scratch, oil is a good place to start.

Yeah but the thing is that,the one who's gonna built that economy (or not.we have to wait and see for that) and the one will have the control of the oil will be the US.

And what crime exactly was Saddam not guilty of? That government commited genocide, stole money from the people, and anyone that questioned him was either locked up or killed. Sounds like a class act

I'm not trying to say that Saddam was good or anything.I was talking strictly about having nuclear weapons and/or attacking the US.

I really hope that not coming across as an a@@, because that is not my intention. Sometimes I love playing the devil's advocate just to make people think. And let me say this, even though I disagree with you on some points, I understand where you are coming from.

Not at all,on the contrary,i enjoy talking with ya. I like playing that role too so trust me,i surely wont blame ya for doing it. The "i understand where you are coming from" part you're saying it with a good meanning,right?? O_o

And about the rant,no problem with me.I also sometimes either just want to rant (without actually doing it) or i just "squeese" it among other things,so,yeah.

Originally posted by Oceanborn

Well,i do agree but personally i don't believe that the US are provoked at a point that they should be ready for a war or anything.Don't get me wrong,i do believe that things have their limits.Actually,my own country is getting provoked all the freaking time and trust me,i'm not happy at all of us being way too patient.I guess our argument on this very thing is based on POV so nothing we can do about it.

True, it does depend on our POV, like any other issue for that matter. BTW I really don't think that US will use a massive overt military effort in Iran (but I'm not saying their not doing something covertly). I think they will keep putting economic pressure and rumors of war going hard til Iran's election. Because by that time more of the Iranian population will be fed up with their idiotic leader.

I agree with everything but they are threatened now because they want a part of Iran claimming that it's rightfully theirs.(except if i don't know things so well and i'm not sarcastic or anything.if i'm wrong on this please correct me

)

Israel doesn't want a piece of Iran (I think that's what you're getting at). They simply don't want to recognize that Israel as a country because they feel that the palestineans were cheated out of their land when Israel was formed in 1948. It also doesn't help when you have a president that denies the existence of the holocaust and that the people living in Israel are jewish.(not saying that all arab or islamic peoples hate jewish people) Plus it doesn't help that the US is setting up bases in your neighboring country and are allies with Israel. To put it simply, its a perfect recipe for something to happen.

Well,i guess these are based on our POVs so it wouldn't do any good to reply,i'd probably ruin the convertation.

What I meant by that statement was that if you look back even to WW1, WW2, vietnam, etc there was a large portion of the population that did not like the war effort and many protested. All I was saying is that this is not a new phenomena.

One more thing I feel I should mention(this is more directed to everyone). Compare the number of troops, number of deaths etc everything is incredibly small compared to WW1, WW2, Vietnam,etc. This is an incredibly small war compared to those. So before people say "the world is going to hell in a hand basket", consider those numbers. Things are getting better.

Yeah but the thing is that,the one who's gonna built that economy (or not.we have to wait and see for that) and the one will have the control of the oil will be the US.

As it stands right now, Iraqi government controls the oil. US, in regards of the oil, their job is just to make sure the oil keeps flowing. Otherwise gas would be $7/gallon right now. By the way, building a pipeline creates thousands of new jobs. New jobs = new money.

I'm not trying to say that Saddam was good or anything.I was talking strictly about having nuclear weapons and/or attacking the US.

That's the million dollar question. It depends on who you believe. Kind of like now who do you believe whether or not Iran is using its nuclear program to build weapons?

The "i understand where you are coming from" part you're saying it with a good meanning,right?? O_o

Definitely, and I'm glad we can agree to disagree. Something you don't see too often on these boards.

And about the rant,no problem with me.I also sometimes either just want to rant (without actually doing it) or i just "squeese" it among other things,so,yeah..

We all like to step onto our soapboxes once in awhile, makes us feel taller (rimshot)

[edit on 7-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke] grammar quoting

[edit on 7-7-2008 by Cool Hand Luke]

reply to post by Justice11


Thanks for the post

Hey I got a question for ya. Since when did capitalism become such a dirty word?

reply to post by Cool Hand Luke


My apologies for "vanishing" just like that but i do that from time to time.Unfortunatelly someone (me for an example) can be fed up really fast with this site.(reading posts here and there by ppl who have lost any touch with reality...and damn they're many O_o)

I sure enjoyed our convo no matter what but i can't keep on since i can't tell for how long i'll be around again.


Take care!!

EDIT:Typos. =_=

[edit on 22-7-2008 by Oceanborn]

reply to post by Oceanborn


No prob, I know exactly how you feel. But what you gotta do is look for that diamond in the rough. No matter how much crap gets spouted on this website, there are a few posters that make this site one of the best. And I literally learn something new everyday, thanks to these posters. Plus I like to read more than I write anyway.

Enjoyed the conversation, after all in this world there is nothing better than having a conversation. At least, in my opinion

Take care and maybe I might have to do the same, reality is just a little more real sometimes