Must Magic, Astrology, Alchemistry & Psychism be accepted by Christianism?

You know, as much as I hate atheism, I've always been less-than-enthralled with the idea of going to Heaven and playing a harp or just lounging around in paradise, doing nothing, for the rest of eternity.

What's the point?

To me, it would make much more sense if God and Jesus and Buddha and Muhammad and all those people had phrased things a bit differently — like, Yes, you will have a job in Heaven, so you must pass the entry examination, which is called Life.

To me, that would be sufficient incentive to obey the scriptures or whatever. Yeah, a job in Heaven or Nirvana or Mecca, etc. Something to challenge me and keep me busy for eternity, like defending the universe from interdimensional invasion. Something like that, rather than just taking strolls down the golden streets of Heaven, listening to the birds sing, all day, everyday, for the rest of eternity.

But it also got me thinking... Maybe this Life is training for some position in the Afterlife. Perhaps that's why religions are so inflexible about their policies — because we're being tested to see if we can follow orders in preparation for our employment on-high.

What's the first command that God laid on Adam and Eve? He ordered them to avoid the Tree of Knowledge. What do they do? Disobey orders. Bam, got 'em kicked right out of the Garden of Eden. If you look at the Bible from the perspective of orders followed and orders disobeyed, you start to see that every story in the Bible is about God giving orders and humans either obeying or disobeying them. The Bible would be only half as thick (or less) if people had simply followed the original orders, rather than wandering off and doing their own thing.

So... What if this whole world, this whole Life, this entire universe is just a training ground, a boot camp, to prepare us for some extraordinary challenge in the Afterlife? Maybe that's why we're always told, in every religion, that there is only one way, and THIS is the way, to weed out the non-hackers who can't follow orders (those would be atheists, pagans, witches or whatever) from those who can follow orders (those would be saints, I suppose).

This makes the game a bit more intriguing. And exactly what are our new and demanding positions in the Afterlife? Bodyguards for God? And why would God need 35 billion bodyguards unless there was something larger and more threatening than God?

Well, that's just an example of where your imagination can take you, particularly if you're not satisfied with the prospect of loafing around watching Doris Day videos and drinking cold beer with 72 virgins for all eternity.

Christians do except it already, you just gotta use the right names when talking to them about it like prophets instead of psychics, Mazzaroth instead of astrology or miracles instead of magic.lol

[edit on 2-7-2008 by Shawn B.]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I think Bigwhammy is important to clarify that my position, as well as the one so some others members is not in favor of sorcery, black magic, spiritism or witchery, is in favor of all of the good Christians that have gifts of psychism in one or other way and that can develop them for the good of the community, following the so old tradition of the Mysticism or Christian Esoterism.

I don't share other type of opinions more liberals that wants to say that every paranormal event can be considered as acceptable for Christianism but the other position to reject everything is extreme.

Not all the Apostles of Christ were able to see the future, only John was gifted in that way but didnt mean that he was doing something wrong or forbidden, only that he was blessed with a talent that was special and that can be also useful for the Church.

Important Mystics with outstanding skills for Prediction, levitation, healing have existed in all epochs of the Christianity as Sta Terese of Avila, St Johh of the Cross, St Martin of Porres, Sta Rose of Lima, the father Emiliane Tardiff, even St Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Jesuits were surprised levitating during Pray by his own community brothers.

Thanks for your participation in this thread,

your friend,

The Angel of lightnes

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Exactly my point. We are encouraged to pray and have faith in God not conjure up God knows what. How can you be sure its not of the devil? If it's of the lord Jesus you should consider why are "magic" or "spells" are required.

This goes for you to. How are you so sure that when you pray, if you pray, that you are praying to God?

The reason why people know that they pray to God is that they have a feeling that they are doing the right thing. This also goes for when I use magic.

reply to post by TechnoFan21


Well at least in my personal case I am talking about natural gifts, something that is with the individual since birth. There are people that are natural mediums, natural clairvoyants, natural predictors.

Let me be more clear, there are persons that see the spirits without invoking them, as well as there are others that have vissions without calling for them, or others that have prophetic dreams without willing them

So I am not talking about anytype of activity related with black masses or invocation of any entities, just gifts that are part of the person all along its life and that are part of the extrasensorial perception, something that by the way in our epoch it is also studied by the Science.

About the question of the pray, well if a person is praying with faith to God, to Jesus or the Holy Ghost or to a saint or to the Virgin Mary, that person feels in his heart that it is actually being listened.

Of course if you are not praying to the Devil I think is not very probable that your pray will be responded by him, since the Devil has its own weak points and one is precisely to contact any person that is close to God or to be near to a Cross or to any other religious object.

A good place for Pray, that is always important to have in the home, is a one that has objects that stimulate our faith as for instance Religious symbols: like the Cross if you are Christian, or the portrait of a Saint, or a beatiful painting of the Virgin Mary or Jesus, or Angels etc.

Now if you are Muslim a good place of pray must be clean, silent, near a sourde of pure water, with good carpets, there are precious ones that inspire peaciful thoughts, the persian ones plenty of flowers are a pleasure for the eyes.

A convenient musical background can help for a good pray, there are many possible suggestions but of course depends on the Religion. The music of Jhohann Sebastian Bach, or the Gregorian Chants are so useful to assist the concentration.

About how to scare the Devil and prevent his presence well there are different ways:
- Open your bible in the Salm 23 or 91 and read it, they are prays of the king David that protect against the bad spirits.
- Also read the Magnificat, that is a pray composed by St Mary and it is in the gospel when she visited her cousin St Isabel. There is a promise of the Virgin that where this pray is repeated the devil can not enter.
- If you are Catholic and have a rosary at hand pray with it for 5 minutes, this also gives special protection. The classic Rosary is ok but the one of the Misericordy Lord has an special promise of Protection against the evil.
- if you are Orthodox pray The Symbol of Faith in front of an Icon of St Mary, The Holy Trinity or the Pantocrator.
- If you are muslim you can pray the Salaat looking to the Meca direction begining with the Sura 1 of the Koran.


Thanks for your questions,

The Angel of lightness



[edit on 7/4/2008 by The angel of light]

Originally posted by Shawn B.
Christians do except it already, you just gotta use the right names when talking to them about it like prophets instead of psychics, Mazzaroth instead of astrology or miracles instead of magic.lol

I think you think somehow you are making fun of Christians with that?

You don't think names are important? Is their a difference between Adolf Hitler and Mother Theresa? I think names are real important.

I mean DUH there are 2 teams guys- whose power you utilize will determine your position more than your "good intentions". Remember the devil masquerades as an angel of light. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the obvious.

Prophet - messenger of God
Psychic - messenger of Satan
Miracle - from God
Magick - from Satan
Mazzaroth - God
Astrology - Satan



[edit on 7/4/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by TechnoFan21

This goes for you to. How are you so sure that when you pray, if you pray, that you are praying to God?

That's an easy answer. Because I use his name when I pray. There's no ambiguity at all. I pray the way Jesus taught in the Bible so there's no ambiguity there.

The reason why people know that they pray to God is that they have a feeling that they are doing the right thing. This also goes for when I use magic.

No we have instruction from God. It is not about your feeling. Feelings are useful as supporting evidence, but your feelings often will deceive you as well. That why we use the Bible as the standard and not just our "feelings". Don't go with what just seems right...

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."
(proverbs 14:12)

Isaiah 47:12-15.

Here God was particularly judging the Babylonians who were strongly involved in this. "Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror. All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those star-gazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. Here are no coals to warm anyone; here is no fire to sit by. That is all they can do for you - these you have labored with and trafficked with since childhood. Each of them goes on in his error; there is not one that can save you."

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 says.

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of His covenant, and contrary to my command has worshipped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil to your city gate and stone that person to death.

I hope this has answered your question.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
That's an easy answer. Because I use his name when I pray. There's no ambiguity at all. I pray the way Jesus taught in the Bible so there's no ambiguity there.

No we have instruction from God. It is not about your feeling. Feelings are useful as supporting evidence, but your feelings often will deceive you as well. That why we use the Bible as the standard and not just our "feelings". Don't go with what just seems right...

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."
(proverbs 14:12)

Yes, that is a true verse. But that is only because people do not know how to use their mind like they do their emotions. I have mastered this, and I know exactly what I am feeling, and what it means. Being a natural emotional empath has that effect on you. Also a natural psychic, which requires intuition i.e. feelings.

So, yeah. I can do what I need to do just by how I feel. I'm not dead yet, nor am I following Satan. Sometimes I do have conflicts with my emotions, but I always work it out.

reply to post by The angel of light


There's actually a really good point in here. Some people experience paranormal or other strange activity without consciously doing anything on their part. I know a lady who has several times seen the spirits of the deceased, but she isn't involved in any kind of occult or anything like that (and, frankly, she's the type who would be appalled at anyone who was involved in it). I suppose that sort of thing is something you're just born with, like a talent for music or a birthmark on the face or a dislike for broccoli.

A person isn't doing anything wrong if they're just born with an ability like that. I think the most important things to look at with this sort of stuff is 1) what is the source of it? and 2) what are you doing with it?

If the answers aren't 1) God/nature and 2) Good things, then I don't think it's a good idea to do it.

Hi there angel of light,

I apologise if someone has already said this as I don't have much time to read your replies, but felt compelled to respond to your question.

I don't think there will ever be a straight answer to your question as you are dealing with a religion that is based on hypocrasy.

For example, to be granted sainthood, one must perform 2 miracles, yet those miracles are deemed to be classed as "paganistic" in nature which is abhorred by the christian church.

Secondly, one of the greatest laws of the Christian/Catholic religion is "Thou shalt not kill" and yet the Christians waged one of the bloodiest examples of mass murder during the inquisition that one author believes to have wiped out almost 25 million Europeans.

And how is it that armies are blessed by priests/bishops before they go to war - to kill people. Why don't our church leaders slam our governments and military for being murderers?

So you can see there cannot be fair reasoning with a faith that is so hypocritical.

I would like to add that from my experience, people I know that follow the Christian/Catholic faith are wonderful people. The criticism I express is towards the church leaders of today AND the past.

Kind regards,

Dobbie

reply to post by Equinox99


Let me briefly respond two different ideas that were posted in the last replies by others members:

- From the Christian and in general Abrahamanic religious point of view the Sin that refers in Deuteronomic and Isaiah is not the fact to have psychic skills, is not to use them to predict anything, is to use them as part of a systematic paganic practice, in other words as part of rites to other gods.

- Similarly the Astrology is not a Sin, excuse me but it is clear that the Magi that visited the baby jesus after nativity, and that are considered as Saints for many churches, were important professional Astrologers.

- The sin is to think that the Stars are not a medium used by God to communicate to us, but that they are actually Gods, like for the ancient civilizations or why do think so many planets are known with the names of pagan Greek or Roman gods? , So the terrible sin is to do rites to glorify them instead to God.

- In the same way everthing that can damage another person through psychic ways is correctly classified in the Bible in the sin of Sorcery, but thats all, the psychic energy used to heal, to protect, to give guidance or solve any kind of human problems without causing damage to any other person is not condemned at all.

- The human beings does not have the chance to decide to practice or not psychism, the modern parapsycological research is proving every day that the Human being has moreover a natural Psychic side, any person has paranormal faculties, it does matter if it knows or use them or not due to ignorance, prejudges or bad understood ethical values. This is the reason for which so many non professional psychics have paranormal experiences like dreams, telepaty, vissions, apparitions of spirits, etc.

- The original sin of Adam and Eve was not to want to have access to the Knowledge, not at all. Previous to it they have plenty of access to any constructive, possitive & convenient source of Knowledge through their comunion with God. But when they broke the confidence that God gave to them in the original agreement or Pact, they decided to change the complete free access given by God father to everything that is good and clean, for the possibility to have access to the Negative side too, that is the reason for which the bible says they eat of the fruit of the Science of the Good and Evil.

So the real Sin is the possibility to decide not only for the Good but also for to go ahead in the evil line, in other words to choose for life of sin instead of saint one.

thanks for your atention,

Your friend,

The Angel of lightness




[edit on 7/8/2008 by The angel of light]