Magical thinking:our downfall or our blessing?

I didn't say that UfO's and the tooth fairy were listed in Wiki, I said the source concepts (my external text) were. I am merely linking the ideas together with my own examples and questions. I would guess that you think our magical thinking falls in the downfall category?

reply to post by seagrass


Thinking about it (but not magically thinking) I can see the point you are trying to make. I just think that expanding the term "magical thinking" to cover just about anything that is non-scientific destroys the usefulness of the term. I think terms like "intuition" would be better suited to what you're talking about. I hate it when the definition of a word is made so general and vague that there's no longer a point to the word existing, since you always have the specifify that you mean.

As for your question, I don't consider it a "downfall." There are certain instances where using a strange cause-effect relationship does explain something. But using it to explain everything is plain ignorance. The general explanation is "just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't real." This is true, there are things that we just plain can't understand. That doesn't mean it should be the default explanation, that all new things are irrational and unexplainable. I liek to beleive humans can understand jsut about everything in the universe if we try hard enough. Sayign "a wizard did it" doesn't give us enough credit.

The ridicule of science is the worst, the reaosn you are alive today and not dead of some childhood illness, starvation or similiar is because of people who looked at things critically and logically and saw the true connections between things. You don't get sick because your father was a sinner, you get sick because you encounter bacteria that can be treated with specific medicines. There are too many people here with no scientific background that (unsuprisingly) don't understand a fraction of the scientific discussion that goes on here. I'm one of those people. However, I accept my ignorance and try to change it. Too many others call on angles and demosn to explain things because they don't udnerstand them.

Originally posted by Esoterica
reply to post by seagrass

 

Thinking about it (but not magically thinking) I can see the point you are trying to make. I just think that expanding the term "magical thinking" to cover just about anything that is non-scientific destroys the usefulness of the term. I think terms like "intuition" would be better suited to what you're talking about. I hate it when the definition of a word is made so general and vague that there's no longer a point to the word existing, since you always have the specifify that you mean.

I would like to hear how you think a term like magical thinking is useful? That is the whole point of this thread. How it is destroyed by being vague, I cannot say. For me, simple is good, and I like words that are vague, like love and peace and clean, and I don't see a reason for those words not to exist. Intuition would fall under both science and the occult in my mind. Also a word I like.

As for your question, I don't consider it a "downfall." There are certain instances where using a strange cause-effect relationship does explain something.

Could you give us an example where using strange cause-effect explains something?

But using it to explain everything is plain ignorance. The general explanation is "just because we don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't real." This is true, there are things that we just plain can't understand. That doesn't mean it should be the default explanation, that all new things are irrational and unexplainable. I liek to beleive humans can understand jsut about everything in the universe if we try hard enough. Sayign "a wizard did it" doesn't give us enough credit.

I agree, but I do like watching movies and reading books that do.
because it's fun.

The ridicule of science is the worst, the reaosn you are alive today and not dead of some childhood illness, starvation or similiar is because of people who looked at things critically and logically and saw the true connections between things. You don't get sick because your father was a sinner, you get sick because you encounter bacteria that can be treated with specific medicines. There are too many people here with no scientific background that (unsuprisingly) don't understand a fraction of the scientific discussion that goes on here. I'm one of those people. However, I accept my ignorance and try to change it. Too many others call on angles and demosn to explain things because they don't udnerstand them

This is where I will leave it up to others to discuss, as I am not a scientist, not very adept in terms of the other ways of looking at healing. I would like to hear other members thoughts on alternative health, the powers of positive thinking, and such.

Magical thinking, at it's core, consists of two principles:

/.../

2. Objects that were once in contact maintain a connection when seperated. This is why you treasure a Christmas card from your family more than one from your boss, even though they are both just pieces of paper.

Yes: why DO we do it?
It's not a taught thing, that's for sure.
And it's been around forever (literally).

Are they really just »pieces of paper«?
I mean, are they REALLY inherently »equal«?

Why DO people like to touch – and even collect - ancient bits and pieces, stones and other pieces from a place they relate to?

Why are original art works, regardless of their price or value in terms of money (I have observed this many times), more »valuable« than identical reproductions that would fool even a connoisseur?
What is the actual, profound, ULTIMATE cause of Benjamin's aura?

And while I can certainly understand if somebody doesn't believe in psychometry (= »reading« an object for past – or even future - events relating to its owner), it is a phenomenon that has to be taken into consideration. (Ridiculing it would certainly not be "scientific" behaviour - not at all.)

Maybe Wilhelm Reich was right: maybe there are forces that impregnate and »charge« any given object.

And in the light of the »holographic universe« theories, endorsed by some of the most respected physicists (Pribram, Bohm etc.), there is no separation.

Of this I am certain: when people react »i-rrationally«, it's often because they are in touch with a source of direct knowledge (even though its very nature and actual "contents" may be unknown to them) - a cognitive source that bypasses the limits of the rational mind.
(Think of the rational mind as a gatherer of »circumstantial evidence« and a processor of such data – not as a cognitive organ.)

I don't have a problem with it being called »magical thinking«.
I would just resent it being treated as something false, as superstition.
(Obviously, I am not referring to you or to your perfectly valid post here.)




[edit on 29-6-2008 by Vanitas]

I think of "magical thinking" as The Peter Pan Effect. I appologize in advance if that does not fit the actual definition of the term.

I look at it as still being able to look at the world with a sense of awe and wonderment. I am not saying that you need to believe in the tooth fairy or santa clause, but still being amazed at things that happen but can't quite be explained.

I don't want to "knock" science. I agree that science has done some amazing things for the world. I don't like it when people cling to science to explain the unknown as if science was their religion. As another poster already illustrated, throughout history science has been proven to be wrong on many occasions. Yet at the time, they were preaching it as if it were the gospel and ridiculing anyone who had an alternate belief.

There are things out there that science can not accurately prove or disprove and I feel sorry for the people who want to believe science as if it is absolutely infallible. I think that they are doing themselves a disservice.

Astral projection is an example. Many people believe it is a crock and science pretty much says it is all in your head. This alone will keep many people from even trying. All I know is that if you try it and succeed in experiencing it, I just don't see how you can't get that Peter Pan feeling.

Even if it is "all in your head", so what. It makes you question what else is "all in your head". Who is to say, that everything isn't "all in your head". There is a lot out there that can't currently be explained and it is one of the joys in life to be able to look at that material with the child like wonder.

To me magical thinking is basically using your imagination - something 99% of people over the age of 11 have forgotten how to do. It's so taboo to entertain ideas that aren't 'realistic' or 'doable'. Well The telephone and the airplane weren't doable until a hundred years ago and until then they were just fanciful diversions in someone's mind.

Fantasies don't have to be sexual in nature. Why is it so wrong for an adult to pretend to be a soldier or princess to themselves just for the fun of it? This doesn't mean becoming haughty or bossy in real life. It means recapturing the happiness and wonder that we got as children from pretending. Every day kids pretend to be anything they can imagine and adults resign to be the person they have allowed themselves to become. No wonder adults are miserable.

We deprive ourselves of achieving our dreams simply because we don't think it's possible and I think this is the result of amputating our imagination once we're 'too old for that'. The good thing about an imagination is that it comes back if you simply begin to use it again. And life is so much better with it.

IMO, magical thinking = blessing.

Thank you sc2099, that is my thinking exactly. Watching how happy my daughter is when she is "pretending" is what leads me to think I need to act more like her. Her "what if" thinking is pretty amazing at times.

reply to post by seagrass


Your post made me think, a little deeper.

Firstly the tooth Fairy. Look at this from another perspective. We teach young impressionable minds to we give away apart of us in return for money. Why do this? Your first few teeth you buy the story, but someone at school tells you the real story, you then expect to get that money when you wake up in return for your teeth and dont tell your parents you know so the money keeps coming - how many of you own your old teeth?? I was going off on a tangent ther but the point i was trying to make was really we are condioning our children into expecting something in return. in the kids case either being good/teeth and in the teens they expect pocket money for doing jobs - or even just EXPECT to get it. Buy the time where adults we do not question this sytem we expect to get paid for trhe work we do and if we dont we wouldn't work. Same with Santa Claus - totally blown out of all proportion and totally for commercial gain. I have spoke to many europeans and they celebrate the old traditions not the victorian crap brought in along with the christmas tree for commercial greed and to overshadow the true story. Which one was you told, the one where the elves help santa in the north pole with Rudolph - if the answer is yes it is ot the real one then:

www.stnicholascenter.org...

Out of curiousity, which were you told and what continent are you from??


[edit on 28-11-2008 by MCoG1980]

reply to post by Esoterica


I always thought of magical thinking in a psychological way...not real magic. But, would this fall under the idea of magical thinking: when someone on the news talks about some crime and he/she says, "I never thought it would happen to me." I always hate that. It's like they know bad things happen, so why wouldn't bad things happen to them?

reply to post by seagrass


Good thread

I just heard about a study where they determined that simply thinking about something really does improve that area of the brain. They detected new connections, more nerve endings...children who thought about playing instruments - imagined their fingers moving - became better musicians. I hope we start thinking more magically. I'm convinced we will eventually be capable of "miracles". I guess it's all about intent.

Originally posted by seagrass
We decribe our ancient myths as just that "myths", because we cannot explain why they would think that half-man half-beasts could have possibly roamed our Earth at one time. Was that magical thinking by adults? or was it that they didn't know the cause of what they were seeing?

Science does the same thing when they find something statisically significant with very little testing, because "magically" they want it to be so. Many of our sciences create stories (theories) to describe their research.
[edit on 28-6-2008 by seagrass]

We all do this, it is not just in science. once we gather our findings, we narrate into explanation, and the focus becomes thestory of what we found and what it means, not the empirical data of what we found. I wouldn't say it is because we want/do not want it to be true, but rather our bad habit of narrating to conclusion before empirical tests. Sometimes the answer may be too difficult in understanding of it being true or not, so the story of what it means defaults to take place of the explanation.

reply to post by seagrass


i think your conclusions show a lack of vision.
anything is possible.

ANYTHING.

we just have to imagine it.

i think humans have a mass sickness..
and it's called skepticism.

it's our downfall ... and it's what's going to lead to our demise.

-

I believe magical thinking is necessary to our survival, if only to the extent that we understand and believe that what we think and feel, not just how we act, has an impact at least on other thinking, feeling creatures around us.

What's interesting to me is how the internet can and has impacted this. As we grow to communicate in ways the deprive us of the common cues of tone, inflection, facial expressions, etc. we often take, it becomes necessary to the continuation of communication to take our cues from subtler energies.

Originally posted by prevenge
reply to post by seagrass

 

i think your conclusions show a lack of vision.
anything is possible.

ANYTHING.

we just have to imagine it.

i think humans have a mass sickness..
and it's called skepticism.

it's our downfall ... and it's what's going to lead to our demise.

-

I'm sorry, I thought TravelerintheDark had been the last poster.
I think you misunderstand my intentions on this thread, as I do believe vision and imagination are capable of almost anything. I was merely trying to present the OP in a open minded way, to allow skeptics a chance to challenge my views. The skeptics, when they present an opposing view, and I don't agree with their thinking, only give my ideas more strength for me. I do believe that one of our downfalls is lack of imagination.