Obama online birth certificate - A now confirmed fake

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
someone manufactured it instead of it being issued in response to a valid birth. That someone, other than the government, placed information on a piece of paper and they're trying to pass it off as official. You know, like a "fake ID" or a "fake driver's license".

I agree with this statement.

What one piece of information proves this is a "fake" TO YOU?

That the father's race was listed as African.
That's not a race. The gov't doesn't (and didn't) use that as a race
in documents to describe Americans being born.

Prove that the person making the document was just an idiot and didn't
know any better and I won't be thinking that it's a fake CERTIFICATE OF BIRTH (not birth certificate).

I tried to follow all the threads about water marks or date stamps or pixals ... whatever ... it was too much and I couldn't wrap my head around any of it.

But BH .. that's nearly impossible to prove. You'd have to dig up whoever was working in the offices in hawaii back when Obama was born. (perhaps REALLY dig up if the person is dead and buried). He/she would have to remember waaaaaaaay back then as well.

Either that, or show me other birth certificates of that time period that list 'african' as a race instead of 'black, negro, or negroid'.

(so much for not accepting it because it isn't what I want to hear and it doesn't fulfill my alleged racist and bigoted fantasies. :shk: )

Originally posted by titorite
But do tell me why we can see the time stamp on the back and not the seal? What color is the stamped seal?

Some documents have embossed seals, such as notarized documents, or wax seals that are an intrinsic legal aspect of the documents. Most scanners are designed with lighting to minimize the three dimensional aspects of the original documents being scanned, in order to emphasize the legibility of the text or writing. In most cases, embossed seals or the imprint on a wax seal will not be visible and/or legible in digital images from these scanners, and this raises questions about the authenticity of the digital representation of the documents.

Digital Library Federation

Originally posted by FlyersFan
She said it's a birth certificate. It's not. It's a fake certificate of birth.

An official with the State of Hawaii has confirmed that it is real. Once again...she has CONFIRMED it is a valid Hawaii birth certificate. And again, in case you didn't get is...she, an official with the State of Hawaii, has CONFIRMED it is a valid document.

Get that? Not some sad sack with racist and bigoted fantasies. An official with the State of Hawaii. Someone speaking from a position of authority and knowledge. Not an racist bigot making wild claims in regards to something they know nothing about. A state official.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
3 - It's pathetic.

The only thing pathetic here is that you will not accept the FACTS. You will not accept it because it does not (and yes, I will say it again) fulfill racist and bigoted fantasies that he is a "secret Muslim." Because it does not say he was born in Kenya, that his middle name is Muhammed or that his "birth religion" in Muslim...you will not accept it. Because it does not fulfill those racist and bigoted fantasies, you will not accept it. Because it does not say something you HAVE ZERO PROOF IT WOULD SAY you will not accept it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Yes they are. Different documents with very different information.

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. I am starting to question your intelligence.

Short forms, known sometimes as computer certifications, are not universally available, but are cheaper than photocopies and much more easily accessible. Limited information is taken from the original birth record (the long form) and stored in a database that can be accessed quickly when birth certificates are needed in a short amount of time. Whereas the long form is a copy of the actual birth certificate, a short form is a document that certifies the existence of such certificate, and is usually titled a "Certification of Birth" or "Certificate of Birth Registration". The short form typically includes the child's name, date of birth, sex, and place of birth, although some also include the names of the child's parents. When the certification does include the names of the parents, it can be used in lieu of a long form birth certificate in almost all circumstances

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Prove that the person making the document was just an idiot and didn't
know any better and I won't be thinking that it's a fake CERTIFICATE OF BIRTH (not birth certificate).

So, people are claiming it's FAKE, and you're asking for proof that it's NOT?

That's ok. You go ahead and think it's fake. Even though, as Savior points out, an official with the State of Hawaii confirms that it's not a fake. You go ahead and think it is.

Originally posted by Johnmike
reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin

 

I understand, Andrew, that you love to rabidly support Obama. I would too if I believed in...well, if I believed in global socialism and bought into phony calls for "change," but that's your prerogative.

But stop trolling.

Seriously. You are. We're discussing whether or not his birth certificate is valid, and trying to explain certain discrepancies. Instead of trying to figure out why, you end up ranting like a preteen nitwit who got his mother insulted. I don't give a damn who you support, but don't get in the way of discussion and research with your bias, arrogance, stubbornness, and ignorance.

hmm, strange you take so much offense to the truth.

Flyers troll says its fake because of
reason 1
reason 2
reason 3

i come in and say that those reasons have been disproven by officials of the hawaiian state, and point out obvious flaws in flyers examples

you come in here and say im trolling

gee, i wonder who the troll is now

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
An official with the State of Hawaii has confirmed that it is real. Once again...she has CONFIRMED it is a valid Hawaii birth certificate. And again, in case you didn't get is...she, an official with the State of Hawaii, has CONFIRMED it is a valid document.

Well...no, not according to the link you posted.

While her office cannot verify the information on a form without the permission of the certificate holder (Obama), she said "the form is exactly the same" and it has "all the components of a birth certificate" record issued by the state.

Meaning...no, she did not "CONFIRM" that it is valid. She did not "CONFIRM" that it is a valid document. The thinks that it looks correct, but she couldn't have "CONFIRMED" its validity without permission of Obama.

Which means that we have to evaluate it by appearance, because it isn't "CONFIRMED."

reply to post by Johnmike


you are exactly right, It is not confirmed

it also is not "confirmed" that its fake, as the OP (who msyteriously vanishes every time he posts garbage) claims in his title

"a now confirmed fake"

double standards are so funny.

As soon as one of these ideas gets debunked, another person bounces back with a slightly different "angle"

tomorrow, this one will be dispelled
and evnetualy - obama will release his information (just like hillary with her tax papers) and everyone will have to shut up about it.

Unless someone comes back and says "its a government conspiracy!!!!"

Please stop insulting one another or I'll be forced to use my buttons of destruction.

That goes for all parties.

Peace

Originally posted by FlyersFan

I tried to follow all the threads about water marks or date stamps or pixals ... whatever ... it was too much and I couldn't wrap my head around any of it.

Then that makes you a biased opinionator. You fail to bck up your own assertions with facts, and then attempt to dispell facts thrown back in your way. You say " ididnt read them"

if you didnt read them, then how can you continue to argue them?

just like you "didnt see my post" that you quoted from

you seem to be wearing your selective memory on your sleeve.

So ill sum this up


1.) An official from Hawaii says its not fake. Despite what the OP suggests the same official said

2.) People say its a fake because there is no "mark". So - the same official from Hawaii gives reasons for that. BH posts reasons for that. Makes it "possible" that there is a stamp, because there IS a date, and the date is on the opposite side. But you disregard this info


So im confused
Everything we've pointed at says this isnt fake, and gives evidence to back it up

but the only thing you point at is a "yahoo answers" question article that has racial slurs pasted all over it (verbatim, it uses the n-word and says "nwords suck") how can that be credible?

IM just curious

we are posting credible sources that you even admit that you neglected to read
but then you post racially motivated sources of your own, in attempts to call them "proof"?



anyone else see the irony here?


they come on strong saying

ITS FAKE, ITS FAKE. CONFIRMED. Here's proof

BH posts wonderful articles proving that it is NOT confirmed, and gives evidence to back up the notion that is NOT a fake, and suddenly their rally cry turns to

ITS NOT CONFIRMED, ITS NOT CONFIRMED. I have no proof because i didnt read what you posted.

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
she has CONFIRMED it is a valid Hawaii birth certificate.

And she's wrong. It's NOT a birth certificate.
It's a certificate of birth.
Therefore her 'confirmation' means nothing.

You will not accept it because it does not (and yes, I will say it again) fulfill racist and bigoted fantasies that he is a "secret Muslim." Because it does not say he was born in Kenya, that his middle name is Muhammed or that his "birth religion" in Muslim...you will not accept it. Because it does not fulfill those racist and bigoted fantasies, you will not accept it..... I am starting to question your intelligence.

1 - I have no racist and/or bigoted fantasies.

2 - I have no racist and/or bigoted fantasies that he is a 'secret muslim'.
I challenge you to find anywhere that I said any such thing.

3 - I never said that I believe he was born in Kenya.
(matter of fact, I believe he was born in Hawaii)

4 - Obama's middle name is Hussain, not Muhammed.
(or however, you spell hussain - I don't care)
And as I said on other threads - we don't get to pick our names at birth.

5 - I have stated before that whatever his birth religion was - he didn't choose.

6 - Most all of your post was off topic.


SOMEONE GIVE THIS NUDGE A WARNING OR TWO. :shk:

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
it also is not "confirmed" that its fake, as the OP (who msyteriously vanishes every time he posts garbage) claims in his title

"a now confirmed fake"

double standards are so funny.

Yeah. I think there was a radically biased article from that site I saw on here recently, too. I forget though.

Hopefully we'll get to the bottom of this. I want Obama to end up ineligible to become president, just because he scares the # out of me, but whatever. That's a political leaning, but let's avoid the mud-slinging we've been doing the whole time. Or going on about what is or isn't confirmed by other people.

Instead, let's take a loot at this ourselves. I think FF brought up two issues? One, that it was a certificate of birth and not a birth certificate, however that works. And two, the stamp, whether or not the way it was converted to a digital image (scanner, digital camera...) can, coupled with low pressure used when stamping, render it invisible.

There may have been more I missed in the...crossfire. Let's get to that.


Edit: Oh, and FF mentioned that they may not use "African" as a race on that sort of document, and that was lost to whether or not it's common. Instead, I think we need to see whether or not it's used on birth certificates, specifically Hawaiian birth certificates from that same period of time.

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I tried to follow all the threads about water marks or date stamps or pixals ... whatever ... it was too much and I couldn't wrap my head around any of it.

Then that makes you a biased opinionator. You fail to bck up your own assertions with facts, and then attempt to dispell facts thrown back in your way. You say " ididnt read them" if you didnt read them, then how can you continue to argue them?

DO YOU EVER READ ANYTHING CORRECTLY?

We aren't 'arguing' about those things .. we are discussing the RACE part of the document.

That doesn't make me a biased opinionator. It makes me an honest person for saying that I have no idea about pixals, watermarks or stamps. The ONLY THING we have been discussing for the past 5 pages is the 'race' issue on the certificate of birth. (or did you miss that?)

I said about WATERMARKS .. DATE STAMPS ... PIXALS .. that I couldn't wrap my head around them and so I have no opinion on them.

The RACE part of the certificate I DO have an opinion on because I CAN understand it and, in the past, have worked with documents to get people security clearances.

:shk: lord have mercy :shk:

So let's sum this up, namely you, FF. We can number it to make it extra readable and comprehensive. Exciting!



1) What's the difference between a birth certificate and a certificate of birth?

2) Is there anything we can get on why the stamp isn't visible, even slightly? Is there anything else missing?

3) Can we get any other, similar birth certificates from the same place and time to compare whether or not "African" was used, rightly or wrongly, as race?




This is pretty much all we can do until Obama decides to release it.


Edit for extra readable formatting! Which kind of failed.

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Johnmike]

reply to post by Johnmike


You're right. enough mud slinging. *is ashamed*

Short forms, known sometimes as computer certifications, are not universally available, but are cheaper than photocopies and much more easily accessible. Limited information is taken from the original birth record (the long form) and stored in a database that can be accessed quickly when birth certificates are needed in a short amount of time. Whereas the long form is a copy of the actual birth certificate, a short form is a document that certifies the existence of such certificate, and is usually titled a "Certification of Birth" or "Certificate of Birth Registration". The short form typically includes the child's name, date of birth, sex, and place of birth, although some also include the names of the child's parents. When the certification does include the names of the parents, it can be used in lieu of a long form birth certificate in almost all circumstances [2]. Nearly all states in the U.S. issue short forms certifications, on both state and local levels [8].

Source

A "certificate of birth" is a quick access birth certificate

its an empty claim to "obama is faking it" arguments.

Im glad we could clear this up



[edit on 26-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

Originally posted by Johnmike
I think FF brought up two issues? ... And two, the stamp, whether or not the way it was converted to a digital image ...

Not that stamp thing. I can't follow it and have no idea about it.
I've seen the other threads on it. I tried to follow. I couldn't
wrap my head around those things.

The two things I said were this -

- the RACE being african.
- that woman 'confirming' it as a birth certificate when it's really a certificate of birth.

Close enough. I edited it before to include the race thing, and it was brought up anyway. Ignore this post.

Originally posted by Johnmike

1) What's the difference between a birth certificate and a certificate of birth?

sure this post i believe sums it up quite nicely.

2) Is there anything we can get on why the stamp isn't visible, even slightly? Is there anything else missing?

sure
This post does a good deal of explanation

3) Can we get any other, similar birth certificates from the same place and time to compare whether or not "African" was used, rightly or wrongly, as race

I've tried to find some, unfortuantley this types of things arent very 'public' and my efforts have yeilded no results. But you can refer to the Original post for the link that compares another certificate of birth to the one obama released.

In the female birth certificate, it uses the adjective 'hawaiian' to describe 'caucasian'

i assert the argument that hawaiian is not a race
just like "african" is not a race as shown on obama's certificate

so

either both articles are fake
or
we really have no idea why 'african' was put as his fathers race, and you can revert to my post about my marriage license on file with the state of illinois that has my fathers race listed as cacuasian instead of caucasian because of my misprint

This is pretty much all we can do until Obama decides to release it.

agreed.

Edit for extra readable formatting! Which kind of failed.

Yeah - for some reason - if you're using the "color" or "size" tags for BB code - and you use special cahracters like ; ' " - it wont recognize your code.
I just leave out all special characters when im using color or size tags.



[edit on 26-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 26-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

Originally posted by Johnmike

Meaning...no, she did not "CONFIRM" that it is valid. She did not "CONFIRM" that it is a valid document. The thinks that it looks correct, but she couldn't have "CONFIRMED" its validity without permission of Obama.

That is a mighty fine hair you are splitting. While she couldn't confirm the information on the document, she did confirm it is a valid document.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
ger.com/essene/images/essene-text.gif] Birth certificate [/url] sure raises some eyebrows

That made me crack-up.
What is that, a part of the dead sea scrolls? Well McCain did say he was "old as dirt".

Anyway...it's nice to see we are back to the things that matter in this political debate. The issues.

Just kidding, we're still on the strange claims and rumors.


What's the deal with all this "fake birth certificate" hoopla?

Is this the same sort of CONFIRMATION that Barack's brother allegedly gave regarding Obama's religious status that turned out to be totally false? I seem to recall busting that one up myself.

Is this an attempt to disqualify him from the race because he's polling better than McCain all around?

Poll: Obama leads McCain in swing states

Obama has a solid 12 percentage point edge among Colorado's independent voters. McCain has a small lead among men, but women lean solidly toward Obama. Whites are closely divided between the two while six in 10 Hispanics prefer Obama. Voters over age 55 are split about evenly, while those younger tilt toward Obama.

Meh..if you can't beat him...disqualify him and win by default I suppose.
I don't by this line of attack. Smells of fear and desperation.

Seriously, though who cares?

- Lee

Confirmed Valid

To verify we did have the correct document, we contacted the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records.

"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate," spokesman Janice Okubo said after we e-mailed her our copy.

Okubo said a copy of the birth certificate was requested this month, but she wouldn't specify by whom. But as we know from our attempts to get one in April, Hawaii law states that only family members can access such records.

Check out the Morphing Certificates