US Government admits botched job of WTC investigation

reply to post by Griff



I noticed that Griff, thanks for bringing the document to light, maybe this piece can bring more evidence destruction to light!!
Starred!!!

Thanks for the post,its clear as day that the government are guilty here and that nothing is going to be done about it. More and more ppl are starting to see what really happend and soon there will be nothing for them to hide behind.
thats what i think anyway,time for the ppl to take their rights back.
peace

reply to post by seawolf197


Can you overlook the very obvious? Add up all the 'mishaps', 'coincidences ', ' timing' 'destroying of the evidence' , the ODD way the buildings collapsed... AND, what we did to an innocent country afterwards. It all paints a horrific picture that will never be clear for me. I for one will carry thoughts of conspiracy for the rest of my life... I might not be able to change anything, BUT, I refuse to look the other way....

Originally posted by ATruGod

Originally posted by thedman

• At 10:20 am, NYPD aviation unit reports that WTC 1 is leaning to the south.

Then how in the heck did it come straight down? Shouldn't it have fallen to the south since it was already leaning?

I watched the towers fall from my roof, from a couple miles away. I saw when the second was "hit" with my own eyes. The way the way the one that was hit on the corner started leaning at the top, my impression was the top as going to fall off. With common sense knowledge of how things out to go, when it went straight down, I was amazed. I lost three people that day, a cousin, next door neighbor and a childhood friend.
This report, not having read it, only the snippet and reviews here so far, means what? Judging from this and again with my common knowledge, wouldn't the things said to be covered in this new thing, should have been done under the Aviation rules being planes were involved?

My minds eye tells me that it is just more hogwash for when the time finally comes and the public does ask, it can be said this mistake as corrected long ago

Honestly I feel like the government now realizes that the jig is up. They realize now that the question will not cease, and that a population that is becoming more and more aware are starting to ask questions.

I could be wrong, but I would guess that all of this business of a new investigation is just a way for the PTB to somehow find a scapegoat to blame the mismanagement on. They all know what truly went on, but now they are searching for a praticular individual or agency that they can point the finger at and say "It was their fault".

Once they admit that things were handled poorly, the next step will be to deflect blame away from the real power players.

The big boys know that the truth will come out soon and they are looking to cover their butts, nothing more.

It's been almost a week and none of our resident "debunkers" wants to touch what I posted in my OP? So far, all we've had are tries to go off topic.

Can I take it then that the next time I hear "Nah, uh, the steel was taken to freshkills landfill to be examined by the experts", I can link to this thread and prove them wrong?

I believe I can.

reply to post by Griff

Kudos to you Griff.

It reminds me of the old saying, "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

The legislative initiative that you refer to amounts to an admission of prior malfeasance, but of course in the Mad Hatter's Tea Party that is the Bush administration, we won't go there with legislation already on the books to catch the crooks.

Originally posted by Griff
It's been almost a week and none of our resident "debunkers" wants to touch what I posted in my OP? So far, all we've had are tries to go off topic.

Can I take it then that the next time I hear "Nah, uh, the steel was taken to freshkills landfill to be examined by the experts", I can link to this thread and prove them wrong?

I believe I can.

I believe you can, too.

I think they wanted to get rid of as much of the wreckage as possible as quickly as possible.

Makes sense to me as a typical organizational/institutional response. In a lot of ways, it's a human response in a crisis. Continue with the motions, all those who have seriously attacked the US are doomed to defeat, reassure the public, fly the flag, clear the way...


If the nill hypothesis was true - just consider for a minute - and the removal and sale of the steel had nothing to do with concealing evidence. How in your opinion would they have done anything differently?

Originally posted by undermind
How in your opinion would they have done anything differently?

How about letting the experts go through it before it got smelted down?

Let the experts choose the pieces to be smelted and which were to be kept. Not the other way around.

Originally posted by Griff
Can I take it then that the next time I hear "Nah, uh, the steel was taken to freshkills landfill to be examined by the experts", I can link to this thread and prove them wrong?

I believe I can.

There was in fact investigations into the steel. This article does not say differently.

The law that was put into effect, if you read it was to almost mirror the types of investigations the NTSB does on every aircraft accident. To learn the cause and hopefully prevent it from happening again.

This quote I found interesting from your link:

"These failures mean that we are short--even to this day--on conclusions about design decisions that may have contributed to the deaths of so many firefighters and workers on the top floors."

This law, albeit one that is "close the barn door after the horse escapes", is very important to make sure no stone goes unturned in future tragic events.

Was the investigation perfect? Nope. At the time, there was still hope that there were people alive. Steel was removed as quickly as possible.

Was steel inspected? Yes. This article posted by Griff does not refute that.

Dr. W. Gene Corley(Dr. W. Gene Corley, P.E. is a structural engineer who is a "preeminent expert on building collapse investigations and building codes.") and all of the FEMA/ASCE investigation team gained 100% access to the World Trade Center site, on September 29, 2001.
Mr. Corley stated this:

"There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of the structures."

His complete testimony can be found here:
www.asce.org...

Dr. Abdolhassan Astaneh-Asl, of the U.C. Berkeley Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering was also involved in the investigation. He arrived one week after 9/11 and started collecting data and investigating structural steel remains. He mapped out the collapsed structure and debris, inspected steel for quality of construction, collected samples for further study, and collected drawings and information on design, construction and maintenance of the buildings. He collected pieces of steel that appeared to be from the impact area, which were later provided to NIST for testing and identification.
Dr. Astaneh-Asl's work was released at the Proceedings of the 9th Arab Structural Engineering Conference in 2003.

"As of March 15, 2002, a total of 131 engineer visits had been made to these yards on 57 separate days. An engineer visit typically ranged from a few hours to an entire day at a salvage yard. The duration of the visits, number of visits per yard, and the dates the yards were visited varied, depending on the volume of steel being processed, the potential significance of the steel pieces being found, salvage yard activities, weather, and other factors. Sixty-two engineer trips were made to Jersey City, 38 to Keasbey, 15 to Fresh Kills, and 16 to Newark. Three trips made in October included several ASCE engineers. Eleven engineer trips were made in November, 41 in December, 43 in January, 28 in February, and 5 through March 15, 2002."

- FEMA

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
There was in fact investigations into the steel. This article does not say differently.

Lets look at some quotes from a NIST report.

wtc.nist.gov...
1) No WTC-7 steel was recovered or analyzed.

2) No unprocessed, intact floor trusses were recovered or analyzed.

3) No testing for explosives (or sulfidation or other residue of any kind) was performed.


[edit on 29-6-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
There was in fact investigations into the steel. This article does not say differently.

Did you even read the article TY?

"Thousands of tons of steel were carted away from ground zero and recycled before any expert could examine what could have been tell-tale clues. Support trusses, fireproofing fragments and even burnt out electrical switches that might have given scientists and engineers insight were lost forever - even before an investigation was underway.

Edit: Throat has explained how the double identity happened and so I believe him. Therefore, I edited that part out of my post.


[edit on 6/29/2008 by Griff]

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Are we discussing only wtc-7? I would think most in here are aware of the WTC-7 steel collection. (or lack there of)

This is in regards to the entire WTC complex. If you would like to start yet another WTC-7 thread feel free.

Fact remains that there was an investigation into steel that was recovered.

Originally posted by Griff

"Thousands of tons of steel were carted away from ground zero and recycled before any expert could examine what could have been tell-tale clues. Support trusses, fireproofing fragments and even burnt out electrical switches that might have given scientists and engineers insight were lost forever - even before an investigation was underway.

BEFORE the investigation. Before the investigation started, all anyone cared about was finding survivors. Then their bodies.

Yes there were thousands of tons of steel removed immediately after the collapse. I am not denying that.

Do you think NONE of the steel was investigated?

reply to post by ThroatYogurt

Its like the catch 22 of Big brother, if you aren't doing anything illicit you wouldn't be worried about being spied on (so they say).

It is NIST's job to review the structural engineering to help prevent future disasters. If they had been allowed to do their job it would have accomplished 2 things:

1. Groundwork on creating a structure that a jetliner won't be able to knock over.
2. Identification of anomalies in the steel.

Theres no reason any rational person would not want the steel analyzed. If it can save lives in the future theres no reason to thwart it.

It almost breeds conspiracy thoughts the way they handled it. They probably made more on the sold steel than they spent on the whole investigation.

reply to post by jprophet420


I agree JP....

This event was unprecedented (the planes and the collapses). The recovery efforts at the time were focused on possibly survivors. Not gathering steel to analize. Obviously hind site tells us that as the steel was gathered it should have been placed at sites.

When you have events of this magnitude, things are going to get messed up. This is why you have to write new laws. To TRY to prevent a cluster f***s.

That being said, there was in fact an investigation into the steel. Just not as much as could have been.

reply to post by ThroatYogurt


So, your position is that at the time no one cared how the buildings collapsed but just to get the steel out of there as soon as pssible?

Pretty much what it says in the article.

Here's another article on it.

Following the World Trade Center collapses, a decision is made to quickly transport the remaining structural steel to scrap yards, to be shipped abroad and melted down for reuse. Consequently, virtually all of it is disposed of before investigators trying to assess why the WTC collapsed can examine it.

Authors and New York Times reporters James Glanz and Eric Lipton write that Michael Burton, “who had become the effective czar for the cleanup job, had made it clear that he cared very little about engineering subtleties like the question of why the towers first stood, then collapsed on September 11. ‘We know why they fell,’ he said. ‘Because they flew two planes into the towers.’ But he was deeply immersed in the details of hauling steel out of the debris pile.” [Glanz and Lipton, 2004, pp. 299] Much of the WTC steel will be shipped to India, China, and other Asian countries for recycling (see September 12-October 2001).

www.cooperativeresearch.org...

Funny how you quote Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl.

FLOOR CATENARY ACTION TO PREVENT
PROGRESSIVE COLLAPSE OF STEEL
STRUCTURES
FINAL REPORT

Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E.
Professor and Principal Investigator
Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering
University of California, Davis Hall
Berkeley CA 94720-1710

August 2001

www.ce.berkeley.edu...

Dr. Astaneh-Asl is actually accusing the ASCE and NIST of being corrupt.

He also questioned the makeup of the society's investigation team. On the team were the wife of the trade center's structural engineer and a representative of the buildings' original design team.

"I call this moral corruption," said Astaneh-Asl, who is on the faculty at the University of California, Berkeley.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 6/29/2008 by Griff]

[edit on 6/29/2008 by Griff]

reply to post by Griff


Griff,

I will admit that I need to gather more information. I don't know ALL of what happened with the collection of the steel.

My response was to you in regards to when debunkers claim that steel went to freshkill..."should i direct them to this thread"

Indeed it did.

My position is that after reading several engineers statements, that they had ample amount of evidence to figure out how the towers fell.

Not ALL the steel was removed and shipped off right away. But from what I read, much was at the beginning. So, from what I know so far, no one was AS concerned as to how the towers fell on September 11th & 12. As they were after it was impossible to find any survivors.

Can I ask you again... do you think any steel was examined?

Edit... Indeed not ALL engineers were happy with the amount of steel removed and cut up....

[edit on 29-6-2008 by ThroatYogurt]

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
Can I ask you again... do you think any steel was examined?

Of course I do. As tesified by many engineers. That is not the point of this thread though. I got sick of hearing that "all" the steel was investigated before it got smelted.

I have proven that claim incorrect.

Originally posted by Griff

I have proven that claim incorrect.

Indeed you have. (i don't recall personally ever stating that)..then again..i may have.