Obama Calls for More Responsibility From Black Fathers

Originally posted by marg6043
But is not limited to black fathers but also white and any other race even Spanish now in the south that are becoming a growing problem when it come to abandoning their women and children, because many are illegal is easier to disappear.

Thank you for that information, marg. I'd have never known otherwise, since we don't go around repeating those statistics.

Do you think it's more of a class issue than a race issue?

Originally posted by rocknroll
Fathers should be there in BOTH body and mind.

That was me paraphrasing. I think he was talking about cases of divorce, or separation, where the father doesn't live in the house, but if you're genuinely interested in what he said, visit the link.

What does this mean?

I answered a similar query upthread.

Raising a kid is a personal responsibility, not the government's responsibility.

So, you'd prefer we save our money and invest it in prisons? Because that's where kids with no opportunities end up, jail, and then they're our problem forever. Would you prefer that?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I see what you mean, but I don't think Obama should have to "throw [black men] under the bus" to assuage the fears of some voters. And I don't think he did. Instead, I believe his words are being spun that way.

I don't think he did either. I think it's serendipitous that the voters fears may be assuaged.

What are the percentages?

From the text that you quoted:

You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled – doubled – since we were children.

Otherwise, I don't know. I'd have to research and I'm not trying to prove anything or blame anyone so I see no need to do so for this discussion. Plus I have to go now.

More later

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't think he did either. I think it's serendipitous that the voters fears may be assuaged.

Good, we agree on something.

What are the percentages?

From the text that you quoted:

I meant, for all races. Since you said, "Don't you agree that it would be a great improvement for the black community if the percentage of fathers who abandon their children would decrease to the same percentage of white fathers who abandon their children?", I'm curious to know the percentage of white, 'child-abandoning' fathers.

reply to post by HarlemHottie


In my opinion is not a race issue but rather the class issue that the nation is facing as the middle class is been destitute.

Once the middle class is wipe out is only going to be the very rich and the poor dependent on government hand outs.

reply to post by marg6043


I think so, too. It's a pattern: when men don't feel like they can provide, the women get angry, and the men feel 'less-than.'

But, look on the bright side: Obama has a plan, and so far, his planning has been exemplary.

btw, marg, I've always been a fan, but we don't cross paths too often, so to you.


edit for pronoun correction

[edit on 18-6-2008 by HarlemHottie]

as being a single father of 3 kids I have joint castady i almost always have my kids more than thare mom and i still have to pay chil suport becouse my income is more than hers.it doesant matter i live by my self
with 3 kids and she is again pregnet liveing of of me and the state and the man she lives with makes more mony than me.thay live it up and i pay her
when i have the kids more.I would save more money by not having my kids and just pay full suport but i love my kids.the hole sytem is messed up.thay need to help the non dead beat dads and maybe thare would be less dead beat dads.it is also hard becouse the mom always gets catady.my ex agreed to joint castady and i still had to get a lawyer out of my pocet.on one up side michigan is trying to pass a law that in a devirce
both parents get 50 percent custady unless proven un fit not the other way around.

reply to post by slayerfan


That's a crazy situation, slayerfan. Glad you're able to keep up, and still have a good relationship with your kids (I hear that's tricky sometimes). So, do you think Obama's plan could help you out?

dbl post

[edit on 18-6-2008 by HarlemHottie]

If passed, the legislation would increase enforcement of child support payments and strengthen services for domestic violence prevention.


I dont know how thay could enforce it more.I now many people ho have went to jail not goten thare taxes back and so on for not paying child sapport.I have mine direct deposatit from my paycheck so i dont have to wory about it.on a side note if I quit or lost my job she would have to pay me becouse her income would be more.I bet thay would bend the rules on that one, but im all for strengthen services for domestic violence prevention
and I would ad treatment for the parent and kids ho were liveing with domestic violence so it does not continue with the kids and thare kids.

reply to post by slayerfan

What do you think about this bit?

We should reward fathers who pay that child support with job training and job opportunities and a larger Earned Income Tax Credit that can help them pay the bills.

Would that make a difference to you? I'm very curious to see how this plan would affect real people.

reply to post by HarlemHottie


Hmm, interesting information, but i just have one question (no backlashing, im seriously just asking a question here)

The sources i've read said Obama was talking about black fathers (referenced many times in this thread) and it reminded me of the numerous videos' i've seen on Youtube about Bill Cosby.

Bill Cosby took it upon himself to say, basically, this has nothing to do with "white people" in a good or bad way. He chose to talk to black fathers because he, himself, is a black father.

Pointed conversation has much more of an impact that generalized talk.

IE:
human beings should set aside their sexist notions because it degrades society

v.s.

Men should not degrade women to the point of self-defense. It only perpetuates the male v.s. female debate and makes things worse

or

Women should not group men into the stereotypical "pig" or "player" because there are plenty of good guys out there, who take extreme offense to this notion, and in return, they create stereotypes of their own to label women...making the issue worse



See how each one has its own unqiue, un-vague, impact

Just my opinion though....
please don't take offense, Harlemhottie, i just thought you were being too defensive, and i could not figure out why

(again, take no offense, im sure im missing something here, just not sure what it is)

well I probaly get state astance but choose not to for job traning I have a decent factory job that im vary good at but never did good in school so I dont see ware it would help me but I think it would help alot of people and maybe even be an insentive for guys out thare to better them selfs as a parent and as a person.I think thay almost go hand in hand.I have a hard time thow with just getting a baby sitter so I can go to work other than that my kids are always with me that would be some thing to think about to. the earned Tax Credit would help a little once a year but when i live week to week some times going to my parents house to get food so I can make my kids supper it doesant do that munch.freind of the court,not a freind of mine lol, should care less about money and acshully care about the kids.with joint castady when my ex didant work and i hadjoint castady thay wanted me to pay over a 100 dollers a week.I stll had to feed and cloth them and house them,I tould them i would lose my house ware my kids have grown up and then ware would we go and thay said it was not thare problem.

[edit on 18-6-2008 by slayerfan]

[edit on 18-6-2008 by slayerfan]

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
The sources i've read said Obama was talking about black fathers...

Did you watch or read it yourself? I ask because, secondary sources are, well, secondary. They would naturally filter the speech through their own pre-approved lens. In this country, the media doesn't racialize 'typically white problems', like parents who raise school shooters.

Bill Cosby took it upon himself to say, basically, this has nothing to do with "white people" in a good or bad way. He chose to talk to black fathers because he, himself, is a black father.

Most older black people I speak with feel much the same way. Doesn't make them right.

To put it another way, I can back my opinion up with fact. Can he?

Pointed conversation has much more of an impact that generalized talk.

I agree, which is why every time I encounter the "black men abandon their children" meme, I re-direct to class. The two are inseparable. If we were asking, "Why do poor men abandon their children?", we'd be more likely to answer the question correctly, and fix the problem.

Then again, since this is a conspiracy site, maybe the objective is NOT to fix the problem. Hmmm....

please don't take offense

I didn't.

I"m still waiting for somebody to explain why this is a controversial subject.

And just saying it was controversial when Cosby said it too doesn't explain WHY it would be controversial. Why would Obama calling for more responsibility from black fathers be controversial?

reply to post by slayerfan

You sound like you have a lot on your hands. My heart goes out to you, I can only imagine how you're juggling all that and managing to keep it all in the air.

I hope you're already an Obama supporter, because John McCain doesn't address any of your concerns. I don't want to hi-jack my friend BH's thread (anymore than I already have ), so I'll just give you a few links. McCain, Obama

[edit on 18-6-2008 by HarlemHottie]

reply to post by HarlemHottie


Yeah i listened to it Video here

But where im getting ... confused... if you forward to 3:08 its where he directs everything he's going to say to the "african american community"

I, personally, see the point you're trying to make. You're trying to say that this conversation SHOULD BE directed at all races, and i agree.
Thats not the argument in this thread, IMO

The argument that i noticed was that Barack didn't direct this at black fathers....but he did.

As far as Bill Cosby, i truely believe he has some facts to back up his opinion. For lack of a better term, he uses "street facts" instead of 'statistics'..though he does use a few. ( Source Video )


I've been a long-time member of the "comments" crowd on YouTube.
And i can tell you, i've never seen something more dispciable than this (and this is not aimed at you HarlemHottie)

I see Bill Cosby, who was hailed in the black community for being a comedian. The Cosby Show, Fat Albert, Jell-O Pudding, Kids say the Darndest things, etc etc etc. Nobody in the black community ever had a bad thing to say about Cosby until he started speaking out about the problems that black people face.

He wasnt talking out about the problems PEOPLE face, just the black people. He talked about how the rap industry exploits hopeless youths. There is no "hope" in leading a gangsta life, etc etc.
And, especially on youtube, i seen a lash-back from users who claim to be African American the likes of which i never thought possible. It seems as though Cosby has "8-balled" himself.

Now, don't get me wrong, im white and i only can have an opinion based through my experiences in my life. I wasnt raised in a 'racist' household, nor brought up in a 'racist' community.

But if you put ALL things aside, and just talk about the problems that, say, Cosby and Obama talk about, you have to admit that they are right. Yes - these problems exist in the "White" and "yellow" and etc etc etc communities as well. But they're not talking about the other communities.
They're talking about black communities.

Which is where my confusion comes in. They specifically point at "black fathers" and the black neighborhoods. They're not saying these problems don't exist elsewhere. They're saying "LETS FIX IT HERE FIRST"

i think im starting to talk in circles, so ill be blunt
and please dont take offense

It just seems, to me, and in my non-offensive opinion, that you are the only person here who thinks that people dont think its not a "human" problem, but that these individual speakers take directive action towards the black community in general.

I fail to see how one would not back up such action.
If someone came to me and said "i have a plan to fix the white problems of America" (and yes....they do exist too )
then i'd be all for it. I wouldnt retort with "they're not just white problems"


I, for one, am totally against the media. I think the media is one never-ending soap opera, and dont take it at face value, ever.
That being said, in these two relative cases (cosby and obama) i fail to see how the media is twisting these stories.
They are black leaders talking about black problems, and the media is covering them.
Im positive if there were a prestigious white man (we'll use George Carlin, because i think he's great) who was discussing, pointedly, white problems in America, i know that the media would cover it.

The reason that Obama is all over TV with his speeches is because he's running for president. If he were just a senator with nothing else, you may hear his speech one time, during the 7a.m. news. This is true.

But thats the only twist i see. I dont see how they're making it look like "black problems" are the only problems in America

As far as the school shooting issue goes, yeah, i think its a typical "im a lonley white kid who has everything, complain complain complain" with a couple of sissy parents who don't monitor what their kids are doing. Its not video games fault. Its not marilyn mansons fault, its the lazy *snip* parents fault. That being said, i've seen that very thing covered in the media *washes mouth out for giving credit to media*






Again - just my opinion, you definately see things different from me (and not in a "bad" way. Just a different way) so im curious to pick your brain and see why its a big issue for you, on a personal level.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply to post by jamie83


In one man's opinion, Jamie, its controversial in the sense that this is a topic discussed by members of a different race.

The age-old argument that white people dont understand black people problems.

Thats, in my opinion, why its controversial, because it raises speculation and controversy when white people try to chime in their opinions.

Picking up where I left off...

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
What are the percentages?

I don't know the percentages for white people. But I don't think it's 50%. And I agree with you that it's a class problem and not a problem inherent with black people or only black people. I never meant to imply that.

A lot of things should be equal, yet aren't, like remuneration for the same work and incarceration rates for the same crimes. Could that be the root of the problem? We'll never know if our sole focus is the pathology of the black man (ie, what's wrong with them that they won't raise their kids).

Agreed 100%! That's one angle of solution. I don't think the only angle is top down, though. The more solutions we have for this problem, the faster it will be solved. From the top (equal renumeration and incarceration, etc.) a commitment from the fathers, themselves and from the side (community programs). That's my opinion. People are going to be more willing to help those who help themselves. And I'm NOT talking about black people here.

White people [...] and a whole bunch of middle-class blacks, insist on talking about black men, instead of to them.

I agree. That's why I said that I shouldn't be talking about them. White people shouldn't be talking about them. I said:

ONE... way that people can help to that end is to stay and take care of the babies they make. I cannot tell you how happy I am to see Obama touching on this subject. HE needs to be the one talking about it. Not me, not white people.

And while Obama is not even middle class, he's someone who can do something about it from that angle.

In effect, young black women buy into the American ideal of a male who provides for their families, are disappointed, and take it out on the fathers of their children.

I believe it. Because young white women do, too.

So, instead of blame, they need jobs with potential. It really is that simple.

And I have said several times, I'm not looking to blame. I'm looking at solution to a problem I see as bigger than "black men don't take responsibility". I KNOW that's not the issue. But one part of the solution is commitment. Not JUST financial.

If those "blue-collar" jobs don't come back, we might be having that conversation in a few years.

I hear that.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
Pointed conversation has much more of an impact that generalized talk.

TOTALLY AGREE! I think we need to talk about these subjects without being defensive if possible. Walking on eggshells so as to "keep it general" or not offend anyone is one reason problems don't get solved. HH, you know how I feel about you, but you seem to be taking offense where NONE is meant.

Andrew E. Wiggin, I love your posts here and agree with you completely. I have talked about this very subject (not Obama, but black leaders talking about black people’s problems) and it’s gotten pretty sticky. And you’ve laid it out very nicely, IMO. Thank you.

Slayer fan, (is that the band Slayer or Buffy?) I agree with HH, it sounds like you’ve got a lot on your plate and I commend you for taking such an active role in your kids’ lives. I can tell you love them very much. I hope Obama’s plans help you out. I’m eager to see how they play out for our country.


[edit on 19-6-2008 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Raising a kid is a personal responsibility, not the government's responsibility.

So, you'd prefer we save our money and invest it in prisons? Because that's where kids with no opportunities end up, jail, and then they're our problem forever. Would you prefer that?

No, I don't want my tax money going into prisons either. Why should I be responsible for someone else's mistakes (their choices)? Also, being poor is no excuse for resorting to crime. There are lots of poor folks out there who are good law-abiding citizens. We all have a choice to be good or bad, whether you are rich or poor. If you are poor and resort to crime, prepare to pay the price and suffer. If you are rich and resort to crime, prepare to pay the price and suffer. Kids in jail are not my problem. It's there problem. That's what happens when you make poor choices in life. You pay for it and regret it and have to live with it...don't expect someone else to take up your slack.

If a guy doesn't have a good job and gets a girl pregnant, and has no way to support a child (or her, and a family).......he's a total irresponsible moron in my book. He has no brains. And he should be prepared to deal with his immoral decisions accordingly. It's that "reap what you sow" thing. God's way of teaching lessons in life. Prepare to be burdened, but don't burden your neighbor because you screwed up. Wanna make your neighbor your enemy? Start dumping all your problems (that you created) on him.