Jesus crucified or hanged?

Originally posted by SimpleTruth
And what do you EXPECT the quran to say? Of course it's going to claim what it does about Jesus not being actually killed or that it was a conspiracy of sorts. But let me ask you this my friend: Was not the quran written hundreds of years AFTER the fact?

You don't know anything about Islam do you? Have you ever read the Qur'an?

It's no conspiracy as you say it is.

And let me ask you this, "friend". Wasn't the Gospel you hold to ALSO written centuries after the fact? Yes, I think it was?

And didn't Constantine mix his Pagan religion into Christianity? I think so

And didn't St.Paul, the true founder of Christianity, put words into Jesus' mouth? Yes, I think so.

And if the apostles were apostles of Christ, why are there different accounts?

As Gazrok pointed out, different accounts in the same religion?


Truth, post all the quotes you want, they hold no water.

Originally posted by Illmatic67



And let me ask you this, "friend". Wasn't the Gospel you hold to ALSO written centuries after the fact? Yes, I think it was?

NO, Illmatic, they weren't. All four Gospels were written within decades of the actual events.

I read in timeline of the bible that the last book written by John, Revelations, was written on the Isle of Patmos in AD98. Just over 60 years after Christs death.

" truth post all the qoutes you want, they hold no water "



yea but they hold what sripture really says, which is more than water.



So think whatever you want to brother.
peace.

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by SimpleTruth
And what do you EXPECT the quran to say? Of course it's going to claim what it does about Jesus not being actually killed or that it was a conspiracy of sorts. But let me ask you this my friend: Was not the quran written hundreds of years AFTER the fact?

You don't know anything about Islam do you? Have you ever read the Qur'an?

It's no conspiracy as you say it is.

And let me ask you this, "friend". Wasn't the Gospel you hold to ALSO written centuries after the fact? Yes, I think it was?

And didn't Constantine mix his Pagan religion into Christianity? I think so

And didn't St.Paul, the true founder of Christianity, put words into Jesus' mouth? Yes, I think so.

And if the apostles were apostles of Christ, why are there different accounts?

As Gazrok pointed out, different accounts in the same religion?


Truth, post all the quotes you want, they hold no water.

Illmatic, all I said about the Quran was that it was written centuries after Jesus' life. I didn't say anything else about it. So all I meant by that, is how do you expect the Quran to be accurate about what happened to Jesus, if it was written so long after? How would it be more correct than the bible when it was written much much later? And I wasn't trying to be sarcastic when I called you friend.

The reason there are four gospels is because four different men recorded what happened. They will describe it differently only because some of them witnessed something Jesus did on a certain day, when the others were probably not around. Some of them were maybe right next to Jesus during some events, others farther off. The gospels don't conflict at all in the sense that none directly oppose another.

"And let me ask you this, "friend". Wasn't the Gospel you hold to ALSO written centuries after the fact? Yes, I think it was?"
hmm actually no it wasnt, by 100 A.D christianity was becoming wide spread. John was written before revalation which was written I think around 80 A.D. The letters sent out to churches were written by paul, he was dead by 100 A.D. The bible was written in the same century Jesus died. It is made of 66 books and was put together after.

And didn't Constantine mix his Pagan religion into Christianity?

lets also think about this- NO!!!!!!
Christianity is not pagan, and you have no way of supporting what you say.

And didn't St.Paul, the true founder of Christianity, put words into Jesus' mouth?

Also im answering with NO!!!

And if the apostles were apostles of Christ, why are there different accounts?

The acounts are pritty much the same. They talk of the same type of day using different words, sone says an angel opened the tomb, I believe that to be a vison, that does explain why it wasnt in the other accounts. Also each think of different events as more important as they meant more to them. If every account read the same that would proove it to be false, thefact that they read differently means we have 4 acoounts which support each other and we can know to be accurate.

hope that answers your comments. Id be impressed if you could back up your statements

I was quite impressed by the facts in the last two posts. your points are valid. The four aposltes that wrote the Gospels not following Jesus around like a bunch of puppies, with him all the time, makes sense to me. As for Paul, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that he even met Jesus.

Originally posted by intrepid
I was quite impressed by the facts in the last two posts. your points are valid. The four aposltes that wrote the Gospels not following Jesus around like a bunch of puppies, with him all the time, makes sense to me. As for Paul, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that he even met Jesus.

You are correct, kinda...lol. Paul was actually Saul who was hell-bent on killing any and all christians he could find (he was a devout practicing Jew and really ate up with hatred for the Christian followers). Then he had this weird experience with a donkey and encountering the spirit of Christ and was converted right there on the spot. Changed his name and the rest is history.

paul met jesus once, on the way to damasicus.

The point I was trying to make was that the bible was written shortly after the events. This means that it wazs not word of mouth but passed on by eye witnesses. Paul wrote to churches a lot and gave teaching. Its quite amazing how much the bible backs itself up. Including the old testiment backing up the new.

Originally posted by Adrianay
paul met jesus once, on the way to damasicus.

The point I was trying to make was that the bible was written shortly after the events. This means that it wazs not word of mouth but passed on by eye witnesses. Paul wrote to churches a lot and gave teaching. Its quite amazing how much the bible backs itself up. Including the old testiment backing up the new.

Well, this is actually the event I reference in my post above. He met the spirit of Christ. This was after Christ had ascended.

And didn't Constantine mix his Pagan religion into Christianity?

lets also think about this- NO!!!!!!

are you forgetting that constantine was a roman?? he did mix in pagan tradition.

christianity did not become widespread until constantine came around. he was the first roman emperor to accept chirstianity, and thus made it the standard religion in the roman empire. THATS how it spread.

Originally posted by Tamahu

Originally posted by Illmatic67
"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not." Quran, 4:156-159

The 'Gospel of Barnabas' should complement this scriptural quote very well(or so I've heard, I have yet to read it myself); even though it may contradict the Qur'an on a few points.

Was/is it a Muslim concept that Judas was executed in place of Isa, independant of the existence of the 'Gospel of Barnabas'???

Do the Hadith(of which I don't put much stock in) mention any of this?

are you forgetting that constantine was a roman?? he did mix in pagan tradition.

christianity did not become widespread until constantine came around. he was the first roman emperor to accept chirstianity, and thus made it the standard religion in the roman empire. THATS how it spread.

Tell me then how did constantine mix pagan tradition in to christianity?

I trust the accounts of the closest friends of Jesus of naserath.

Its extreamly likely that the quoran is actually refering to a different Jesus than the one from naserath.

The name Jesus was common at the time.

Originally posted by Adrianay
are you forgetting that constantine was a roman?? he did mix in pagan tradition.



Tell me then how did constantine mix pagan tradition in to christianity?

Constantine was a follower of the sun-god prior to his battlefield conversion. He incorporated a lot of the sun-god worship rituals into his new found religion. Catholicism was, in fact, tainted by him...there's not much getting around it. And for the most prat, his 'conversion' was politically-driven. He's pretty much a dark spot on the big picture.

The whole of Christianity is clouded by darkspots. Likewise Judaism and Islam.

I think the one thing you can be certain of though, was that Jesus was crucified. This fits in entirely with the non-Christian view that he was executed for being an enemy of the Roman Empire.
If Jesus had been executed by the Jews, he would have been stoned to death.

As for Judas being hung? Here we have another conspiracy. The Gospel of Matthew says that he hung himself but the Acts of The Apostles states that Judas: "purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out"

Originally posted by Truth


" truth post all the qoutes you want, they hold no water "



yea but they hold what sripture really says, which is more than water.



So think whatever you want to brother.
peace.

The "sripture" also says the Jesus was not God. But you can ppick and choose to believe whatever you want.

Originally posted by Adrianay
And didn't Constantine mix his Pagan religion into Christianity?

lets also think about this- NO!!!!!!
Christianity is not pagan, and you have no way of supporting what you say.

My God open your eyes. Christmas was not the birth of Christ it was the birthday of the Sun God. Easter is also a pagan holiday with fertility symbols like the rabbit and eggs. Angels are also pagan deities. Get a clue before you start talking about things you know nothing about. You probably still won't beleive me but here is a site that explains is in detail.

There are still Pagan elements left over in Christianity, and they can be seen in Christian holidays today. Christmas to a Christian is the best example. �Jesus was not born on the 25th of December, but was more probably born spring-summer time in 7 BCE.� (Witches Way) This article also refers to Christianity as a �linear� religion, in the sense that it has a �beginning and an end.� The opposition of this religion, Paganism, is referred to as a �circular� religion. This is because unlike Christianity, there is a rebirth for each person. The background of Christmas goes even deeper. The foundation of the holiday has its roots deep in the Christian history. The holiday itself is a celebration of the birth of Christ. However, the Nativity was not celebrated by all disciplines of Christianity at the point of their conception. In the eastern churches, the tradition began around the 3rd century by being held on January 6th. (Hyde 250) Celebrating the holy day that seems to be arbitrary, due to the fact that the real birth date of Jesus is unknown. The date was changed to be the same day as �dios natalis invictis solis,� a Pagan holiday meaning the birth of the unconquered sun. (Hyde 249) The change offended some people by forcing one religion to share a date of importance with a religion that was being treated as a direct enemy. Augustine called the sharing of the 25th �a diabolical doctrine. The aspect he found most disturbing was the church�s policy to �Celebrate Christmas not because of the sun but of Christ who made it.� (252) Given how each of these religions addresses their celebrations, it is also important to understand the meaning and background that goes along with each celebration. Christmas to the Christians, like previously stated, is a celebration of the birth of Christ. This took place just a little over two thousand years ago. The equivalent of Christmas to the Pagans is called �Yule.� During the celebration of Yule, the people of the Pagan faith celebrate the �rebirth of the sun,� which occurs exactly once per year as well. (Witches Way)

"Special" days were shared with Christians and Pagans though. Constantine made the day of Sol Invictus, known as the Sun God to the Pagans, a holy day and a day of rest for the Christians. This day is present-day Sunday, which is now a day when many Christians attend church. Christmas, the celebration of the Christian�s God�s birth, is said to be on the same day of a pagan festival. Churches were built on top of Pagan temples, and this was one way that Christianity simply inserted itself into Europe andbecame a part of Paganism.

Wake up

[Edited on 8-3-2004 by DaTruth]

Guys if you're going to go at it like this, pick up a bible and quote what you are saying as backup. Chapter and verse.

Originally posted by intrepid
Guys if you're going to go at it like this, pick up a bible and quote what you are saying as backup. Chapter and verse.

Ok how bout this....

"'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good except God alone.'" - Mark 10:18

"So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.'" - John 8:28

"The father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form." - John 5:37

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he only he who does the will of My Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." - John 6:38

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." - Luke 22:42


"About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" - Matthew 27:46

"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me." - John 8:42

"For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it." - John 12:49

"I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge." - John 8:50


"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." - John 13:16

"Jesus said to them, 'Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.'" - Matthew 13:57

"Jesus answered, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.'" - John 7:16

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." - John 14:28

So either the bible is full of contradictions or Jesus is not God. Which one do you choose?!?!?

It's not me you're trying to convince. I DON'T think God and Jesus are the same. But that sure backed up an arguement.

Originally posted by intrepid
It's not me you're trying to convince. I DON'T think God and Jesus are the same. But that sure backed up an arguement.

I know but even in the face of quotes like these from the bible people still choose to believe falsehood. I think that there doing themselves a great disservice. The fact that I'm sitting here playing this game of trying to prove what I already know shows how spiritually dumb I am too.

I'll admit it, I'm playing the game and arguing with people who ignore what I posted and still justify their ignorance. The only reason I do it because it hurts my heart to see how disillusioned and confused I was for so long. So I�m trying to show them what I have learned. But it's a waste of time. Only God can lead people to the truth. If a person chooses to remain blind then that is there choice. I think I'm threw arguing about this subject.