The Issue Of Religiously Inspired Topics on ATS and BTS

where is there a freemason website at?

reply to post by meanmug


I dont know what you mean.

But here´s the Secret Societies Forum

Please try not to post off-topic too often.

A couple more things I think need to be said. Is the purpose to end religous debate? They will occur regardless.

So your going to move the evolution creation controversy to the Science forum. So the Origins forum will die down to low activity and the science forum will go nuts with origins debates. What have you really done? Am I mistaken? or didn't you just make it harder for "non evolution + origins" science topics to get discussed in the Science forum by moving the debate. If you cant out debate them with the facts - I guess running them away is an option. So the origins forum will just be a few Darwinists - high fiving each other and talking about how stupid Creationists are - unopposed. Even they will get bored with that eventually. Well maybe not?

Now since the only place a Christian can discuss anything to do with their faith is the BTS forum. Won't all the many Christian haters flock there too. So now the inconspicuous BTS faith forum poster that tries to avoid the nastier side of the anti- theist agenda here at ATS will get inundated with the haters and overwhelmed. I was pretty overwhelmed by the haters when I first came to ATS... I had to learn how to debate and stand up for myself and my convictions. But BTS was always a little more peaceful and you might even have a decent discussion about a Bible verse or something. Oh well... not anymore I guess.

Well one thing is for sure, the flooding of threads with religious rhetoric and preaching will be limited to faith, Christianity and Ideology forum.

Is nothing wrong with debating ideologies but is wrong when the threads are flooded with bible preaching and excessive quoting that takes the debate out of the argument.

reply to post by marg6043


I understand what you are saying, Marg. Nobody likes 'topic overflow' in inappropriate forums. However, it certainly seems moving the origins debates into the science forum is going to irritate a lot of techies or science buffs. You simply cannot have evolution-creationism debates without bringing God into the equation in some shape or form so all this is going to do is create yet another forum where religion will be discussed. Because rest assured, religion will still be discussed in the O&C forum, the CIR forum, and the Faith forum regardless of whatever rules there are. This isn't me being indignant- this is me knowing people.

Oddly, I am saying this for the sake of other board members who are tired of religious debates invading their forums. I love religious debates and the topic never bothers me. I will also debate creationism and evolution regardless in whatever forum we are to hold those discussions by the rules. However, I am simply trying to point out a problem I foresee with this action. All we're really doing is adding yet another forum where religious topics will inevitably be discussed and more rant threads will ensue. Please trust me. I am psychic.

But I think that some people are failing to realise that evolutionary theory is science. And therefore discussion of this scientific theory can readily exist in a subforum dedicated to discussion of science.

If you want to discuss the basis of creationism, which is a theological notion, there exists places dedicated to discussion of theology too.

Seems obvious enough.

O&C is related to discussions about the conspiracies underpinning creationism and education/culture by the sound of it. So the culture war that creationists have been fostering since whenever. For example, discussion of the disco institute's wedge document which outlines how this group of creationists aimed to 'renew' culture is a fitting topic I believe. We could even discuss the film expelled, which is part of the most recent attempt by the same group to subvert education with the trojan horse 'teach the controversy' and 'academic freedom' attacks on science education (this has been spreading throughout US states at the moment - knocked back in most so far).

So, you want to talk about the foundations of evolution - science subforum.

You want to talk about the foundations of creationism - theology subforum.

You want to talk about conspiracies to subvert science education and culture with creationism - O&C.

That's my interpretation.

No?

[edit on 11-6-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by Rockpuck
i agree completely,while i also agree that it has gotten out of hand lately.if christians are labeled religious,then it is my opinion that someone who thinks we evolved from a rock to be labeled religious as well.but i also think the constant arguing over it has to stop,noone should push their beliefs on anyone,oh wait isnt that what science does,try to push their beliefs on us by saying we dont believe in god,(which is fine),and it should be okay if we say well we dont believe in a rock(me being christian).but i think ats is doing what they feel they need to do to sop the constant arguing over this.......peace

[edit on 11-6-2008 by pureevil81]

I don't know if I like Atheism being included with the religions, but as the discussion is usually in response to religion or critiquing it, functionally that is the most logical place for it to be. Oh well!

I really like that psychology and philosophy forum, that is so awesome. This board really needed something like that, I've so far been forced to go to BTS to bring that stuff up and (no offense but) BTS is a deadzone outside of the chitchat forum.

reply to post by AshleyD


I see what you mean with the creationist/evolution topics and is true you can not debate creationism or evolution as comparison without the bible links that comes with creationism.

NO to worry ATS is still reviewing the issues I imagine and they will see what can be done.

You can debate evolution on the science forum but when evolution is linked to creationism that will pose a problem.

BTW I am physic too.

Originally posted by marg6043
Well one thing is for sure, the flooding of threads with religious rhetoric and preaching will be limited to faith, Christianity and Ideology forum.

Is nothing wrong with debating ideologies but is wrong when the threads are flooded with bible preaching and excessive quoting that takes the debate out of the argument.

Yes and no.

Faith is something that will permeate out in everything we do, say and how we act. The very way we develop how we process information is directly related to our faith in what ever deity. It would be highly ignorant to assume that the creation of a Religious forum will stop all forms of religious debate on ATS in random and various debates/conversations across the debate.

neither should they be discouraged. Sure, there will always be the trolls, ATS members need to learn to identify them and don't feed them.

Whether or not I directly say it, it does not matter, but everything I say, all of my opinions and all that you will read will be, direct or indirect, the consequence of my religious beliefs.

I would hope of course that we are all mature enough that it wouldn't be a problem, but perhaps it is. Or perhaps this entire situation is a knee jerk reaction.

Originally posted by melatonin
But I think that some people are failing to realise that evolutionary theory is science. And therefore discussion of this scientific theory can readily exist in a subforum dedicated to discussion of science.

If you want to discuss the basis of creationism, which is a theological notion, there exists places dedicated to discussion of theology too.

I actually do agree with you here. Yes, Evolutionary theory is science. True. Creationism is theology. True. I think you may have missed my point. If we are re-divvying up the forums the way we are, we will still have religious debates in Faith, CIR, and OC forums. The way it is now. However, with this new change it will now be in the S&T forum as well.

Again, I could care less what forum we're supposed to debate them in- that is fine. I have no issue going to the science forum to discuss evolution or the BTS forum to discuss creationism. All I am saying is those who do complain about the amount of religious discussion on ATS will only be even more ruffled because all we are really doing here is adding the debate to yet another forum.

In a perfect world this would work but this isn't a perfect world and we're not perfect people. Now we will have four forums instead of three where religion/creationism will inevitably be discussed. Just trying to point out a flaw I see for the sake of those who are tired of religious threads. I, myself, could care less.

Edit to reply to Marg because I am too scared to make an off topic comment: I was only kidding about being psychic. Only intuitive! But I am glad to know someone understands what I am saying. I am so incoherent today. lol

[edit on 6/11/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by Rockpuck


As I said in another thread, when it comes with topics like religion and politics they can not be avoided, it is part of everyday life.

And that is fine, but what the problem here is most of the time, is when the threads turn into preaching and bible teaching grounds that takes away the debate of the issue the thread is trying to encourage.

reply to post by marg6043


So you mean to say that ..

On ATS..

After a few pages a thread ...

Gets off topic?

If atheist or none Christians allow bible scriptures to .. win win the debate well .. that's not saying much.

Personally, I have never been bested by a Christian preaching Bible verses.

To "RockBuck",

Yes and no.
Faith is something that will permeate out in everything we do, say and how we act. The very way we develop how we process information is directly related to our faith in what ever deity.

That, in itself, is a very confirmed "Fascist" statement and should of not been said by anyone that "Thinks" they know what they are talking about.

It would be highly ignorant to assume that the creation of a Religious forum will stop all forms of religious debate on ATS in random and various debates/conversations across the debate.

[Golfers clap in the back-round, 'silently']
Don't you get it? it is no "DEBATE" , there is no conspiracy produced by "Atheists" there is nothing more than you defending something that you whole hardily believe that everyone else around you should believe,,,, I don't freaking get any of your so called "Religion is the only way" scenario's.
It is not "Here" and not definitely not "NOW" in any respect, "It Lay's with in your selves, not the ATS public."

It is not a "Logical Conversation" when there is such one-sided overviews of the topic.

There has never been, nor, as far as I know, never will be a conspiracy against a said religion by someone that does not believe in anything but themselves.

I personally think there should be a forum for you that are on the "Higher [self proclaimed] hierarchy of life." Go there and discuss, leave the innocent out of it and get on with your "Personal Conclusions" to validate one another, but don't use me , or others that are "Atheist/Muslim/Jewish/Buddhists/Hindus, etc. etc." as an excuse of argument and ridicule.

Actually, if you think about this whole topic, I believe you all will eventually end up in a "Redundant" argument with out the induction of any other proclamation of religion or self understanding from what you as individuals have been taught. [Key Word; 'Taught"]

"GO to church" allow yourself to vent, this is your reality as well, but be very accept-ant to the difference's in this world, it could be very well the person that saves your life some day.

Originally posted by AshleyD
If we are re-divvying up the forums the way we are, we will still have religious debates in Faith, CIR, and OC forums. The way it is now. However, with this new change it will now be in the S&T forum as well.

Not if you discuss the science, which is what evolutionary theory is. Religion shouldn't even have to come into a discussion of evolutionary theory and science, heh.

If you want to discuss the theological impacts of evolutionary theory, that would belong in theology. If you want to show how evolution and theism are entirely consistent - theology. If you want someone to show why the living coelecanths are not the same as the fossils, science.

If you want to complain that evolutionary theory is not consistent with your faith and therefore creationism is the best thing since sliced bread, theology.

The real issue is that some people appear to be unable to separate science from theology, or even theology from everything else in the entire world, society, and universe. FSM help us in the new forum, heh. I can see psychology will get a battering.

It's a science donchya know?

[edit on 11-6-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
Not if you discuss the science, which is what evolutionary theory is. Religion shouldn't even have to come into a discussion of evolutionary theory and science, heh.

But you do understand there is a difference between shouldn't and won't, correct? Again, we are dealing with people. Do you really think the fundies won't find their way into the evolution threads in the science forum? I'm trying to help out ATS here. I simply foresee a problem. Nobody has to listen to me but don't say I didn't warn anyone!

Edit: Oh, and I think we are missing each other at the pass. You are talking about discussing evolution in general in the science forum. That's cool. But I was specifically talking about the evolution-creationism debates that are supposed to take place in the Science forum from now on. That's all. It will simply lead to more religious threads in yet another forum and rant threads like Religious Extremists are Taking over ATS will be a dime a dozen.

[edit on 6/11/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
But you do understand there is a difference between shouldn't and won't, correct? Again, we are dealing with people. Do you really think the fundies won't find their way into the evolution threads in the science forum? I'm trying to help out ATS here. I simply foresee a problem. Nobody has to listen to me but don't say I didn't warn anyone!

If you want to know what I really think will happen...nothing. People will be confused for a while and everything gets back to normal in a week or so. O&C fills up with the normal tedious arguments and everyone's happy...sort of....I think.

But I was specifically talking about the evolution-creationism debates that are supposed to take place in the Science forum from now on. That's all. It will simply lead to more religious threads in yet another forum and rant threads like Religious Extremists are Taking over ATS will be a dime a dozen.

Well, if that's the current idea it isn't the best option, IMO. If you want to discuss anything to do with creationism, even comparison to evolution - theology subforum. What is there to discuss evolution vs. creationism...really? I mean really? There is no real E vs. C. We have threads saying creationism sucks, and threads saying evolution sucks. If we make clear distinctions between the scientific discussion (e.g., reliability of radiometric dating, fossil finds, human evolution) and theological (errrm, godidit?) then it could work fairly well.

Science is science, theology is theology. Never the twain shall meet....except in theology subforums?

I agree it would never be so clear cut. It isn't even in the science forum now. But it's not a bad heuristic to base this on.

reply to post by melatonin


I agree totally. "There is no room for improvement of discussions of this topic, less they have some earth shattering news to bring to the multitudes that there is any viable evidences by way of bonafide artifact or some kind of physical proof, 'til then, it's mundane and a constant rant from one side to the other."

Stick to those forums and topics, "I'll definitely avoid them!"

Undo has a nice thread going, it involves all walks of belief systems without being evasive and condescending to one another..
GO check it out!!

Another twist for you religious out there.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

edit for ATS website



[edit on 093030p://0174 by Allred5923]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Is the purpose to end religous debate? They will occur regardless.

No. In fact, this will make debate and discussion of religious issues more easy to locate, the BTS Religion, Faith, And Theology Forum.

So your going to move the evolution creation controversy to the Science forum. So the Origins forum will die down to low activity and the science forum will go nuts with origins debates. What have you really done? Am I mistaken?

Yes, you appear to be mistaken.

Threads discussing the science of evolution, should be in the science forum.

Threads discussing creation, a religious topic, should be in the BTS Religion, Faith, And Theology Forum.

Threads discussing the perceived conspiracy to teach creation as science in public schools should be in the forum set up for that, the Origins & Creationism Conspiracy Forum.

For example, a debate refuting evolution from a "religious" standpoint should be in the BTS Religion, Faith, And Theology Forum, since the topic begins from a religious viewpoint... and contains no conspiracy basis.

harder for "non evolution + origins" science topics to get discussed in the Science forum by moving the debate.

It's not science, thus, should not be in the science forum.

If you cant out debate them with the facts - I guess running them away is an option. So the origins forum will just be a few Darwinists - high fiving each other and talking about how stupid Creationists are - unopposed.

If you can present a logical fact-based argument to support the notion that non-science should be taught as science in school classrooms, your input will be welcome and encouraged. All our forums have a reasonably specific topical focus so that new users can quickly locate the categories of discussions that interest them, with an expectation of some level of topical containment.

Now since the only place a Christian can discuss anything to do with their faith is the BTS forum. Won't all the many Christian haters flock there too.

Perhaps. Here's your chance to witness extraordinarily.

I was pretty overwhelmed by the haters when I first came to ATS.

In addition to better definition of the forums, and more effort to contain the topics, we're also expecting our members to contribute with a degree of civility and respect. Atheists that attack Christians, Christians that attack Muslims, atheists that attack Wiccans, and so on, will all be shown the door with the same level of swift attention from our staff. The goal is to engage each other on meaningful and productive discussion, not provide a bully pulpit.

reply to post by Allred5923

To "RockBuck",

It's Rock - Puck. Personally, I have never had a problem spelling a users name, seeing as it sits in front of you to see, and copy from. Not entirely TO hard..

That, in itself, is a very confirmed "Fascist" statement and should of not been said by anyone that "Thinks" they know what they are talking about.

Actually, it's not. In fact, it has nothing what so ever to do with politics either. It is a philosophical view point that I feel, and many other feel, is an accurate description of Faith interlocking belief patterns, even ingrained into the subconscious to be implemented in everything you and I do.

Unless you can refute it, calling me a Fascist really makes no difference to me.

I would like to make another suggestion (aside from getting your eyes checked seeing as you couldn't even read my name) and that would be to get a Websters dictionary, read the description of Fascism, and then study the philosophies of Fascism.

You apparently have an inept knowledge of that which you speak of.

I don't freaking get any of your so called "Religion is the only way" scenario's.

I was unaware that I made such a claim during this exchange? ..

It is not a "Logical Conversation" when there is such one-sided overviews of the topic.

Because of your typing style I am finding you difficult to understand. Are you implying that because Christians out number Atheist in these debates it therefore lacks logic? .. And you would rather remove the religious aspect to have all forms of disagreement cease so that instead of a debate, a conversation can take place?

It is entirely logical and reasonable that when a topic is being discussed that goes against the belief system of another member of this site, that they will add their opinion.

There has never been, nor, as far as I know, never will be a conspiracy against a said religion by someone that does not believe in anything but themselves.

Again, you make no sense. To believe in only your self is to deny every belief system. It's simply the rejection of all religious institutions and philosophies, and is in it's self a philosophy that borders religion in the sense that you worship the void of a deity rather then the deity it's self. If scientific theories (and they are only theories) replace the need for a deity, in an obscure way it could be said that THAT is the God to which you subscribe.

I personally think there should be a forum for you that are on the "Higher [self proclaimed] hierarchy of life." Go there and discuss, leave the innocent out of it and get on with your "Personal Conclusions" to validate one another, but don't use me , or others that are "Atheist/Muslim/Jewish/Buddhists/Hindus, etc. etc." as an excuse of argument and ridicule.

So just like Christians don't like their beliefs being scrutinized, you also do not like your beliefs scrutinized. That is both inwardly destructive as well as cowardly.

GO to church" allow yourself to vent, this is your reality as well, but be very accept-ant to the difference's in this world, it could be very well the person that saves your life some day.

You preach to me of acceptance and acknowledging differences when you shun the debate of those who oppose your own way of thinking? Hypocritical, at best and a complete logical fallacy to say that you, a man who rejects peoples of faith, are also accepting and understanding.