How China Got The F-16 Secrets

I dont know if anyone has read this or not.But i seen it talked about very little on here.

www.strategypage.com...


May 28, 2008: American intelligence officials have confirmed what has long been suspected, that the new Chinese J-10 fighter was built using Israeli technology. Russian engineers also admitted that the J-10 had such technology. The J10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16 the J10 has only one engine. It's no accident that the J10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for their Lavi jet fighter. Israel had abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.) The Chinese denied any Israeli contribution, but Russian engineers say that China had one of the Lavi prototypes. . Pakistan is believed to have provided the Chinese with one of their F-16s for examination. There does appear to be a lot of F-16 technology in the J-10.



In the end, the J10 did not perform all that well in air combat, so the Chinese have been reconfiguring some of them as a fighter-bomber (the J-10C). This version can carry over four tons of bombs and missiles and has been equipped with a fire control system for delivering missiles and smart bombs. The Chinese designed targeting pod is similar to the Israeli Litening, and they were showing it off as early as 1998. American warplanes use a later version of the Litening. The J10C will have a weapons officer to concentrate on hitting things on the ground. China already has over 90 J10s in service, and Pakistan has some on order.

I'd like to know when was the last time China ever invented anything on their own from start to finish without having to rely on stolen secrets or copy cat technology.
I know they have the Great Wall but there's got to be more than that.

Israel gave it to them via the Lavi ? Oh that doesn't bode well for the F-22's that they are begging the Americans for does it ? what next ? a PLA - 22 stealth ?

Thats bad, real bad. How on earth can the USA keep supporting such a back stabbing group as the israelis.

Several sources have claimed a Lavi prototype was sent to China. It's pretty widely considered "common knowledge".
And that is certainly one good reason they have not gotten the F-22 (though no potential export customer has).

_Del_ if memory serves me rightly didn't japan also get refused the F-22 because it gave away some of the Aegis secrets relating to the radar and missile systems ?

The two allies who want it the most seem to deserve it the least.

Everybody that has asked for it has gotten a denial, so it's hard to say "so-and-so asked and was turned down because they did this..."

I also doubt very much that Israel will get F-22 (even if it will go for export), but it is not for Lavi (and Lavi was not F-16!!) - it is for Falcon.
Before all the "backstabbing" issues will rise i just want to point out that US companies (and British, French and who not) also were working with Chinese air force until it was stopped by administration.
As for J-10 - i also think that it was at least partly based on Lavi (which is 20 yrs old technology by the way). I bet that guys who sold it never thought that Pakistan is going to get it. Oh the irony - so much money invested and the results will fly for Pakistan .

Originally posted by Dan Tanna


Israel gave it to them via the Lavi ? Oh that doesn't bode well for the F-22's that they are begging the Americans for does it ? what next ? a PLA - 22 stealth ?

Thats bad, real bad. How on earth can the USA keep supporting such a back stabbing group as the israelis.

It is quite simple, the F22 has been banned from foreign purchases. Israel will sit on its F15, possibly F35 (though I think they were affectively kicked out of the F35 program because of selling sensitive technology to china).

F-16 looks nothing like J-10. It's like thinking the Gripen looks like an F-16, or a F-16 looks like a Mig-21, or a F-16 looks like a F-8 Crusader... - rediculous.

Anyway, I think we should not sell Israel any new military technology. Don't give them F-22, don't give them F-35. Heck, don't give them anything.

[edit on 5/6/2008 by C0bzz]

Calling Chinawhite (and StealthSpy), our esteemed ATS members who are FMSEs on this subject

Originally posted by Alxandro
I'd like to know when was the last time China ever invented anything on their own from start to finish without having to rely on stolen secrets or copy cat technology.
I know they have the Great Wall but there's got to be more than that.

Sorry to go off topic but I'm sure you've heard of a little thing called black powder, also known as gun powder.

Thats just 1 thing the Chinese have invented. Do a search, theres a helleva lot more.

I could go on about American ignorance but that would mean I myself would be making an ignorant, uninformed, biased opinion and 2 wrongs don't make a right.

[edit on 5-6-2008 by Chadwickus]

reply to post by Chadwickus


When was the LAST time they did. Black powder is probably a few thousand years old.

reply to post by C0bzz


No idea without looking, also I apologise if I went a bit OTT with the American comment, may have been uncalled for.

As for the F16 copying, you know what they say! imitation is the best form of flattery lol

[img]http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=j1001ci1.jpg]

stpd guys! this is the chengdu j10 of sinodefense.

does this looks resemble an F16
it resembles the ISRAELI LAVI.

Quick question: why did the Chi-phoon (get it?) do so badly in air-to-air trials? It looks like it could turn and burn with the best of them. Are Chinese pilots really that bad? Or did the Israelis "help" them build a not so hot airplane?

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


But no one has the track record of the Isreali's when it comes to selling hardware that the US gives yes gives them to China. That inludes AWACS technology and you can be that if and when the get the F-35, those secrets will be up for sale to the CHICOMS aas well.

reply to post by FredT


As far as i know after AWACS (Falcon) scandal Israel is not selling anything to China without US approval. And what hardware are you talking about? Lavi was made in Israel ,only engine was from US. And engine for J-10 is Russian.
About Falcon i do not know , but have an impression (obviously could be wrong) that it was manufactured in Israel. As i stated earlier - US firms also traded with China and this hardware i think was not Israeli. I totally agree that once Israel has received a certain technology it should not reverse engineer it to sell to others (especially competitors of US). But not everything made in Israel is a ctrl-c of American technology.

The firstt thing Israel said about the F35 was they would rip it apart and put there own kit in - which is expressly forbidden.

reply to post by Harlequin


Why forbidden? Only for F-35 or in general? Because on F-16s there are definetly a lot of Israeli avionics and stuff.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

The US believes that Israeli officials lied to them about the export of Harpy Killer drones to China.

The officials claimed that Israel was merely refurbishing old drones which had been exported with American consent. The US argued that the drones had been upgraded using new technology which it had shared with Israel.

The US fears that China is becoming increasingly well-armed and may seek to settle longstanding territorial and political disputes by the threat and use of force. www.guardian.co.uk...

In the mid-1980’s, the U.S. State Department Inspector General raised concerns regarding Israel’s re-transfer of U.S. military hardware and technology without permission. The U.S. Attorney Generals Office cited, “a systematic and growing pattern of unauthorized transfers by the recipient [Israel] dating back to about 1983.www.inthenationalinterest.com...

For years, the US government has expressed concerns over Israel illegally transferring technology to China. During the Gulf War, the US gave Israel Patriot missiles as protection against Iraqi Scud missiles. In 1992, a US intelligence report revealed that soon after the end of the Gulf War, Israel had sold Patriot anti-missile data to China. Israel denied the intelligence report. www.theinsider.org...

Not only do you spy on and bite the hand that feeds you, you then sell it to the Chinese



[edit on 6/5/08 by FredT]