How Skeptics Confronted 9/11 Denialism

How Skeptics Confronted 9/11 Denialism

by John Ray

Skeptics today bemoan the overwhelming proportion of people who claim to believe in all manner of conspiracy theories from the JFK assassination to the origins of HIV-AIDS. For that reason, it may be worthwhile to take a moment to stop and celebrate one area in which skeptical advocacy has been overwhelming successful: the world of 9/11 conspiracies. Through the work of scholars like Michael Shermer and James Meigs, along with everyday skeptics on the grassroots level, critical inquiry has been overwhelmingly successful in calling these conspiracy theorists to task.

Read the whole thing:

www.skeptic.com...

This statement is ridiculous.
Most people think that the government was negligent or worse, about 9-11.
They really think, in high numbers, that the government is covering up something.
If you bring up some individual theories, they will probably not go along with them.
The same thing can be said about the JFK assassination.
People will say that they do not believe the Warren report, but when confronted with individual theories they will not necessarily subscribe to them.
So to look at debunking theories that were probably brought up by government payed stooges does not amount to a victory by the skeptics.

[edit on 4-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
This statement is ridiculous.
Most people think that the government was negligent or worse, about 9-11.
They really think, in high numbers, that the government is covering up something.
If you bring up some individual theories, they will probably not go along with them.
The same thing can be said about the JFK assassination.
People will say that they do not believe the Warren report, but when confronted with individual theories they will not necessarily subscribe to them.
So to look at debunking theories that were probably brought up by government payed stooges does not amount to a victory by the skeptics.

[edit on 4-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

There are no debunking "theories". There are only conspiracy theories.

The fact remains, as has been true since 9/11, that Truthers have nothing to go on. Zero.

Truthers have made no progress in convincing anyone that there is anything valid about their claims and speculations. They have only convinced each other.

Debunkers can go away and Truthers will be left just where they are now: with nothing to show. Nothing will happen.

Originally posted by jthomas
There are no debunking "theories". There are only conspiracy theories.

The fact remains, as has been true since 9/11, that Truthers have nothing to go on. Zero.

Truthers have made no progress in convincing anyone that there is anything valid about their claims and speculations. They have only convinced each other.

Debunkers can go away and Truthers will be left just where they are now: with nothing to show. Nothing will happen.

100% correct.

Looking at the leaders of the truth movement have stalled in the past 2 years. They have been called on to present evidence and all that is offered is hearsay, accusations, lies, distortions of facts, and junk science.

Starred and Flagged. Thanks for the link JT !

Sorry if my poor syntax makes my post unintelligible to you.
There is plenty to look at.
Problem is that the perps have a lot invested in not having these "theories" going anywhere.
So, they set up straw-man arguments, that do not have anything to do with anything.
They knock those down to show how "conspiracy " people are full of it.
They are prepared by people who are getting salaries and access to equipment to make highly produced videos to spread disinformation.
For example: the "Fake" 9/11 videos.
They promote this idea that the government conspired with the media to air video that was really all being manufactured by a super-computer.
They simultaneously produced a separate video for each network to air.
They also, at the same time, produced fake videos to say were taken from helicopters.
Then they manufactured from nothing but a data base, videos to be submitted from home movie cameras.
Crap like this is designed to get people to not look at video evidence of the crime, because it is all "Fake" gov produced propaganda, and if they watched it they will become brainwashed zombies.
All the while, if you just take a close look at the material available, you can see this was not done by jehadists.

[edit on 4-6-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Most people think that the government was negligent or worse, about 9-11.
They really think, in high numbers, that the government is covering up something.

This is a great example of how to twist something.
For example, I think the government covered up its incompetence. I'm not sure I'd go so far to say they were negligent, but I still think they obfuscated the fact they were caught with their pants down. So now, by your definition, I fall in line with the "Truth" movement, when nothing could be farther from the truth. I fall in line with the "official story" as it relates the events.

All the while, if you just take a close look at the material available, you can see this was not done by jehadists.

Would you say the same thing if they were young men from Ireland and the IRA? Or maybe young, determined Germans? Would that be more convincing? Is there a hint of "ignorant camel jockeys wouldn't be able to pull this off" in your statement?

Do not blame me for using that word.
Where do you think I came up with that one?
How about half an hour after the towers falling they show pictures of 19 Arabs and say they are on Jihad.
That is really cheap and pathetic.
First accuse me of name calling because you decide you fit some category , you think I am defining.
Then accuse me of being a racist.
Some really great arguments.
How many points do you get from the CIA for saying all that?

Its like the BBC video with the time stamp faked on building 7. BBC ate crow over that one and fired the "journalist/photographer" who perpetrated it. Proof of government trickery has truly been 'truthered' by many. Mostly Bush haters and some jihadist sympathizers. I find it pretty hard to believe that the black forces of evil purposely set this up just to invade Iraq. Iraq was an enevitable measure. Taking Saddam out was always in the cards, even during the Clinton years.

Zindo

[edit on 6/4/2008 by ZindoDoone]

reply to post by jmdewey60

Most people think that the government was negligent or worse, about 9-11.
They really think, in high numbers, that the government is covering up something.

Yeah. And they were so worked up about it do you know what they did.

They voted for the same government to remain in power...... How did that happen?

CT

I do not try to understand people's motives for doing what they do.
I try not to get wrapped up in all that.
I just look at the results and try to figure out what I am looking at.
I voted for bush and will probably end up voting for McCain.
That is not the best way to gage how people think, on the subject of 9/11.
Anyway, my point of commenting is to say that you can not decide that whatever the government says is right, because someone who does not agree, makes a bad argument against it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Sorry if my poor syntax makes my post unintelligible to you.
There is plenty to look at.
Problem is that the perps have a lot invested in not having these "theories" going anywhere.

What "perps"? Who? Be specific, with evidence, please.

All the while, if you just take a close look at the material available, you can see this was not done by jehadists.

What "material"?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Do not blame me for using that word.
Where do you think I came up with that one?
How about half an hour after the towers falling they show pictures of 19 Arabs and say they are on Jihad.
That is really cheap and pathetic.
First accuse me of name calling because you decide you fit some category , you think I am defining.
Then accuse me of being a racist.
Some really great arguments.
How many points do you get from the CIA for saying all that?

You don't make yourself very clear.

Pictures shown of 19 Arabs shown only 1/2 hour of the towers falling? Back that up.

What does the CIA have to do with anything? Back up your claims.

I do not really have anything to defend.
As for my claim that they showed pictures of the terrorists on TV, I do not know where you live but I live in the USA.
I was watching TV that morning and before I left, to go to work, I already had the names of all the hi-jackers.
Anyway, I am not advocating any particular theory, just that people should check things out for themselves and not believe the people who want you to just roll over and go back to sleep.

sounds like most of you 9/11 debunkers get your tips from the following video:

reply to post by jmdewey60

Now most people here would have to know by now where I stand on the bulk of conjectured conspiracy theories in relation to this IE they just don't hold enough credibility from my point of view.

If there's any aspect about it all that grabs me it's your observation of the incredibly rapid pinpointing of the prime suspects. I live half a world away from NYC but I observed exactly what you're describing and perhaps the FBI had operatives at the airport capable of reading and interpreting handwritten arabic notes to determine the likely suspects from bags that didn't make it onto the plane but, to me, it seemed just too convenient and fast in all the confusion that reigned on the day.

There could be a satisfactory explanation for this stroke of luck from an investigator's aspect but I would certainly like to see it if just to settle my skeptic nerves.

Yeah Jthomas just had to pat yourself and the back

Gotta make your own threads to drum up some arguments!

Well you guys sure changed my mind. I used to respect debunkers!

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
I used to respect debunkers!

Me too. back when their arguments used to amount to more than "you have no proof after 7 years". Well, no duh we have no physical proof. It was "scooped and dumped".

It's even pretty bad when NIST's own engineers question.

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST),

www.umresearch.umd.edu...

www.911activism.info...

Thourough investigation indeed. But, I'm sure Dr. Quintiere is just a Cter with political motivations. Or he's just another "twoofer".

I have to ask. What is the point of this thread other than to stroke egos?

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
I used to respect debunkers!

Me too. back when their arguments used to amount to more than "you have no proof after 7 years". Well, no duh we have no physical proof. It was "scooped and dumped".

It's even pretty bad when NIST's own engineers question.

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST),

www.umresearch.umd.edu...

www.911activism.info...

Thourough investigation indeed. But, I'm sure Dr. Quintiere is just a Cter with political motivations. Or he's just another "twoofer".

I have to ask. What is the point of this thread other than to stroke egos?

You illustrated the point for us again, Griff and Leo.

After 6 1/2 years of whining, the 9/11 Truth Movement has been unable to convince anyone of its claims and assertions. It just repeats them.

As I pointed out, but which went right over your heads, "debunkers" can go away entirely and you will still be whining to each other that nobody listens to your "truth." You will go nowhere.

Reason, science, evidence, and objective reality have always been behind we true skeptics. You lost from the moment you started in your effort to deny reality and truth and balk whenever we remind you that onus is on you to back up your claims. You haven't and you can't. It's as obvious to us today as it was when you started your silly 9/11 conspiracy theories after 9/11.

Nothing has changed. That you still don't get it is a problem only you can solve. So whine onwards, Truthers, that's all you've got for your efforts to keep out reality and the truth.

It amazes me how "debunkers" keep saying provide proof. First off, do these same people ask those who believe in God or Jesus to provide proof of their existence? Do any of them believe in God themselves? If so, prove to me that the God you pray to exists. Exactly, you can't, but you believe it, and that's enough for you, so why can't people believe that what we have been told happened on 9/11 is not the truth?

Secondly, can someone please explain how, in all or recorded history, no steel structured building has ever fallen due to fire damage. EVER. Then, on 9/11 not 1, but 3 steel structured buildings collapse due to fire damage. Such a thing had never happened at anytime before, and then it suddenly happens 3 times on the same day?

Never before in recorded history has a plane been totally vaporised in a crash. NEVER. Then on the same day, 4 separate planes in 3 separate locations crash and vaporize? And this miraculous event happens on the same day that steel structured buildings collapse due to fire for the first time in history as well. Wow.

Not only that, but the official report into the Pentagon crash claims, in writing, that the plane was vaporized. When this is brought into question, photos suddenly appear of pieces of the plane being collected by government agents. So which is it, did the plane vaporize or didn't it vaporize?

Finally, we pay billions of tax dollars to fund the military and the defence of this country. NORAD has all the latest gadgetry, and practices constantly on how to defend the country from air attack. They even practice protecting us from hijacked planes, as official documents show. How then does this system fail us not once, bu 4 times on the same day. Not fail in the sense that the fighter jets didn't get scrambled quick enough, but didn't get scrambled AT ALL. Now, if we were at war, our enemies wouldn;t let us know that they were attacking, they would surprise us, so you could understand. But on this day, NORAD had over 40 mins to respond to warnings, and yet seemed incapable of responding? NORAD seemed to be incapable of functioning on the same day that 3 steel structured buildings collapsed due to fire for the first time in history, and that 4 planes vaporized on impact for the first time in history.

1 of these acts alone can be considered an accident, 2 of these acts together can be considered a coincidence, but 3 or more is considered a trend and the trend is that 4 planes, 3 buildings and 1 air defence system all did things that have never been seen or done before or since on the same day within hours of each other. That deserves some major attention and some decent answers and to date we have neither.

Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
I used to respect debunkers!

Me too. back when their arguments used to amount to more than "you have no proof after 7 years". Well, no duh we have no physical proof. It was "scooped and dumped".

It's even pretty bad when NIST's own engineers question.

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST),

www.umresearch.umd.edu...

www.911activism.info...

Thourough investigation indeed. But, I'm sure Dr. Quintiere is just a Cter with political motivations. Or he's just another "twoofer".

I have to ask. What is the point of this thread other than to stroke egos?

You illustrated the point for us again, Griff and Leo.

After 6 1/2 years of whining, the 9/11 Truth Movement has been unable to convince anyone of its claims and assertions. It just repeats them.

As I pointed out, but which went right over your heads, "debunkers" can go away entirely and you will still be whining to each other that nobody listens to your "truth." You will go nowhere.

Reason, science, evidence, and objective reality have always been behind we true skeptics. You lost from the moment you started in your effort to deny reality and truth and balk whenever we remind you that onus is on you to back up your claims. You haven't and you can't. It's as obvious to us today as it was when you started your silly 9/11 conspiracy theories after 9/11.

Nothing has changed. That you still don't get it is a problem only you can solve. So whine onwards, Truthers, that's all you've got for your efforts to keep out reality and the truth.

You are dead wrong.

I never questioned 9/11 or the government until I came across this website, and watched a few of the documentaries posted in this forum. The thought that 9/11 was an inside job never even crossed my mind until I started looking around this forum and other internet sites.

After seeing hundreds of coincidences pop-up regarding that day, my entire opinion of the attacks changed. There is absolutely no possible way all those coincidences, are merely...coincidences. Yes, the "truthers" don't have any hard evidence, like a signed document from Bush saying he did it, but they do have ample amounts of circumstantial evidence that should be enough to warrant a new investigation. However, our leaders will not pursue this investigation, thus sparking even more doubt in the official story.

Don't blame me, or any other truther, for believing the government is lying...blame the government. They repeatedly lie about everything, and try to squelch any type of accurate and thorough investigation into 9/11....what the hell are we supposed to think?