Why vote for a socialist? Re: Sen. Obama

reply to post by jasonjnelson


let me elaborate a little..

If I lived in a small village, and there were jobs for everyone, jobs that they all wanted. Life would be simple, because I would want to work to provide my part of the village collective. But it would be easy in such a community to kick out those who weren't carrying their weight, or shame them into doing so. But in what way, in our new society and all it's technology, are you going to be able to motivate the call center operator in florida to go to work for the benefit of a farmer in Idaho. This kind of program would also only work if everyone was of the same religion and outlook, as personality differences and religious ideals will prevent many from wanting to even help certain others.

Originally posted by grover
reply to post by jamie83

 

That's nonsense... ALL societies are based on mutual need and responsiblity... the whole notion that someone is independent of the society they live in is absurd.

Man, you consistently show you lack reading comprehension skills, grover.

Check this out. Words have different meanings. That's why there are different words. Words are important.

A RIGHT is not the same as a RESPONSIBILITY.

Nobody has a RIGHT to FORCE somebody to do something.

Healthcare can never be a RIGHT because by definition it REQUIRES another person to administer the care.

Now you can debate all you want about whether we as a society should force people to administer health care to our members, but no matter how much you kid yourself, it can never be a RIGHT.

Take it to the extreme. Say me and you live on an island and we start our own government, and we declare we have the RIGHT to healthcare. Then we both get sick. How are we going to get health care? Who's going to give it to us while we're sick?

No, what's absurd, self-indulgent, and incredibly ego-centric is the belief that you or anybody else has a RIGHT to be cared for.

RIGHTS are things that relate to YOUR actions, not requirements from somebody else.

reply to post by jamie83


You are saying what I am, but in a much clearer fashion.
We do not have the "right" to a long and happy life. We have the "right" to the equal opportunity to pursue such things. That was what this country was founded on. I see no gains in mandating healthcare reform.
As many of you pointed out, the Pharm industries are corrupt, and how much more will they be if they have the sen and congressmen they control are in charge?
Our system is designed to continue treating illnesses, not healing them. Show me one dem who takes their own money and contributes it to education on proper diet and exercise. Show me a legislator that forces through an education PE bill.
These people do not care about you, they just want power!
But at least capitalism gives me some measure of control over my own life!

Universal healthcare and free education works fine here in scandinavia. It allowed me for example to study two university degrees even though im from really poor single parent family. Yes we pay lot of taxes but I dont care. We still have enough to buy all what we need. I can even afford our 8$/gallon gasoline

I would never vote for scrapping this system. It gives a real possibility to the poor people to get on their own feet and everyone is taken care of in hospitals with minimal fees. So get over your selfishness and share what you got and in the end youll notice that everyone are much happier.

love, peace and equality

Originally posted by jasonjnelson
the Pharm industries are corrupt, and how much more will they be if they have the sen and congressmen they control are in charge?
These people do not care about you, they just want power!
But at least capitalism gives me some measure of control over my own life!

I will GUARANTEE this to everybody who wants a RIGHT to health care.

As soon as the government takes over the administration of the health care plan, they are going to REQUIRE vaccinations. They will not be optional.

They are going to REQUIRE a national ID system to verify the vaccinations. This is one short step away from requiring identification chips to be implanted.

So for all of you who are clamoring for health care and at the same time bitching about the government stealing your privacy, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

While you maybe right Jamie. I don't see Canadians walking about with electric shock dog collars on...yet.

So I guess no one can really explain or make a case for the programs that the democrats propose. The only argument most have, ,is the assumption that FDR actually helped the country, when it was manufacturing for europe during the early war that helped America. That, followed by our own mobilization....
I believe that FDR would roll over in his grave if he saw what has become of his social support systems.

You cannot prevent people from making babies.
You can force the child into school, and insure that he eats food, but nothing else is compulsory.
At some point, the child, hopefully led there by his parents or guardians, will understand the value of an education and the attitude and conduct necessary to enjoy that education in the most conducive environment possible.
If he/she does not, then we cannot force them, as there is not real reprimand except involving the parents. But I refer to the sentence above.
But if this student disrupts others, the others blame the school. But if the school removes the student, society blames them again. And yet they have o real authority over making people choose to think.
We can't teach abstinence, and yet pregnancies force the end of most young peoples school careers.
We aren't allowed to fail students who behind, instead we lower the standards.

And then these children reach the outside world. Unprepared for the hard work required to succeed, and unable to make the decisions to correct it. People choose to be entertained over learning, and yet I am responsible when their job is lost.

Who said that we only have to work 40 hours in a week? News flash, The wealthy work 100+ hours a week. That is why they are wealthy.

My point? Don't make me responsible for the tragedies that befall a man that who made decisions that he had the free will to do.. I am not talking about accident victims or the handicapped, I am discussing those that waste the large majority of their lives and never plan, always blaming the "man".

Oh, and BTW, the disabled and the handicapped will be the first ones euthanized when they can no longer afford to care for everyone, if the state is in control.

reply to post by jasonjnelson

Why do people keep falling for this crap? Socialism vs Capitalism; Liberals vs Conservatives. Let me ask you, is China socialist? What about its capitalistic economic model? Us Capitalists do major trading with the Socialist China! And what about the socialist English government that we depend on to support us in our Iraq folly? So we don't mind Socialism when we can milk it! Was Bill Clinton the Socialist that engineered one of the longest periods of economic good times in this nation's history? And as for Liberals vs Conservatives: among our so called enemies abroad who do we try to get support from, the Liberal or the Conservative factions? See how stupid these labels are? Its results that matter. With 40 million Americans without healthcare is this a measure of success of the Capitalistic Bush administration's approach? Wake up people!

reply to post by jasonjnelson


i dont know about any of the isms,but we need to go down a different path than we are currently on imo.

think about our future...

when is our government going to change? is it going to keep on growing/hiring more and more people for whatever master plans?

Health Care is the right of every citizen of this World.And it costs more money to be jerks!!!! Canada spent less per person back in 1999 than US though American coverage sucked and that little boy in Seattle died even after appealing to President Clinton without treatment for his Luekemia.

i dont really understand where some of you get your ideas of socialism. We have yet to see a true socialistic country due mostly to western aggression. However, im not really sure what you are comparing it to. Certainly it must be far better than our system of capitalistic greed. Our corporate driven economics is causing destruction and death all across the world, and certainly leaves us with no freedom or representation we wouldnt have under socialism. If you doubt that just check the pipa report or any of the other censuses.... our government policy is most often directly opposed to popular public opinion. We certainly have no say in the war, in taxes, in truly anything else that has to do with corporate agenda. The only thing we truly get to vote on is "smoking in public" "gay marriage" and other such garbage and non issues...and yet our taxes are among the highest in the world. As far as "rights" being things that dont depend on someone else...well, all our rights depend on someone else. Our right to life? Really often depends upon the police or hospitals to provide it. our right to liberty?? come on, thats infringed on daily now with innocent people being arrested and held without due process or habeus corpus...it depends on Powerful freinds and attorneys (and lots of money) to enforce. Persuit of happiness?? The majority of americans i know (and these are working class) live on the cusp, just as the system set them up to do, and have almost no time outside of hustling to pay their bills to "persue happiness".
Further, i really dont understand what people criticize social medicine for. Do they really think it would be worse than our present system?? WHO DO THEY THINK CONTROLS IT NOW?? Its controled by INSURANCE industry, and Corporations....do they really think the insurance or pharma industries take better care of them than government employees would??? their only concern is the bottom dollar, and the current system is set up to give you AS LITTLE CARE AS THEY CAN LEGALLY GET AWAY WITH....even if it means your death. We are social creatures...in an undisturbed stable environment you may be able to care for yourself....but in a city struck by disaster, hurricaine or earthquake, when all you own is lost, or by attack....if you decide to depend on yourself then, you deserve exactly what you offer. Nothing. If you get cancer or in a car accident tomorrow, and all of a sudden you are bankrupt and own nothing....will you still be able to care for your self and your children then??? what if you are in a wheelchair thereafter and can no longer work any but a minimum wage job.
Its so easy to think "oh, im healthy and able now, and anyone whos not, well its all their fault" but this is unrealistic. You PAY taxes in ANY government. In ours those taxes go to corporate interest, NOT your interest. Its the big banks getting bailed out with our tax dollars, not the man losing his home. In a socialist government, those taxes go to Our interest. Things that make life better, and yes, in this world of plenty, things that we CAN afford to make rights...education (already free for those residents of georgia), health care, physical security, basic food and clean water. Not all society needs to be socialist, but there should at least be a bottom limit, a lower boundtry that is socialist, limits below whcih a person can be deprived no more. Above that limit we can do extra to provide ourselves with more.....But not to the degree it is now...not at the expense of our fellow man.

reply to post by Hal9000


I noticed in your rude reply you like all the rest have failed to answer the question,what does OBAMA have to offer that would make him a good prez?!

i dont really understand where some of you get your ideas of socialism. We have yet to see a true socialistic country due mostly to western aggression. However, im not really sure what you are comparing it to. Certainly it must be far better than our system of capitalistic greed. Our corporate driven economics is causing destruction and death all across the world, and certainly leaves us with no freedom or representation we wouldnt have under socialism. If you doubt that just check the pipa report or any of the other censuses.... our government policy is most often directly opposed to popular public opinion. We certainly have no say in the war, in taxes, in truly anything else that has to do with corporate agenda. The only thing we truly get to vote on is "smoking in public" "gay marriage" and other such garbage and non issues...and yet our taxes are among the highest in the world. As far as "rights" being things that dont depend on someone else...well, all our rights depend on someone else. Our right to life? Really often depends upon the police or hospitals to provide it. our right to liberty?? come on, thats infringed on daily now with innocent people being arrested and held without due process or habeus corpus...it depends on Powerful freinds and attorneys (and lots of money) to enforce. Persuit of happiness?? The majority of americans i know (and these are working class) live on the cusp, just as the system set them up to do, and have almost no time outside of hustling to pay their bills to "persue happiness".
Further, i really dont understand what people criticize social medicine for. Do they really think it would be worse than our present system?? WHO DO THEY THINK CONTROLS IT NOW?? Its controled by INSURANCE industry, and Corporations....do they really think the insurance or pharma industries take better care of them than government employees would??? their only concern is the bottom dollar, and the current system is set up to give you AS LITTLE CARE AS THEY CAN LEGALLY GET AWAY WITH....even if it means your death. We are social creatures...in an undisturbed stable environment you may be able to care for yourself....but in a city struck by disaster, hurricaine or earthquake, when all you own is lost, or by attack....if you decide to depend on yourself then, you deserve exactly what you offer. Nothing. If you get cancer or in a car accident tomorrow, and all of a sudden you are bankrupt and own nothing....will you still be able to care for your self and your children then??? what if you are in a wheelchair thereafter and can no longer work any but a minimum wage job.
Its so easy to think "oh, im healthy and able now, and anyone whos not, well its all their fault" but this is unrealistic. You PAY taxes in ANY government. In ours those taxes go to corporate interest, NOT your interest. Its the big banks getting bailed out with our tax dollars, not the man losing his home. In a socialist government, those taxes go to Our interest. Things that make life better, and yes, in this world of plenty, things that we CAN afford to make rights...education (already free for those residents of georgia), health care, physical security, basic food and clean water. Not all society needs to be socialist, but there should at least be a bottom limit, a lower boundtry that is socialist, limits below whcih a person can be deprived no more. Above that limit we can do extra to provide ourselves with more.....But not to the degree it is now...not at the expense of our fellow man.

Originally posted by Ameneter

Let me ask you, is China socialist? What about its capitalistic economic model? Us Capitalists do major trading with the Socialist China!

To be honest, China is no longer Socialist, They are not Communist, they are not like anything this world has actually seen before. They are treading on very unknown ground.

They have an extremely central government controlled by engineers, not lawyers, that is letting free enterprise run crazy. That is unheard of in a society to date. The ruling party, every last one of them, is a college graduated engineer.

They will either implode, or change our lives forever.

I can't wait to see the results of this experiment.

I still don't see and the OP has not shown how the health care coverage plan proposed by either Hillary or Barack is anything like socialized medicine. Socialized medicine is paid for by tax dollars so EVERYONE receives free health care. The health care plan proposed by the democrats is mandatory health care INSURANCE. For those that can afford it, they must buy insurance to cover themselves and their families. For those that cannot afford it will be given coverage in the same manner that the welfare system works. If you already have coverage then nothing will change. You will still pay it yourself and it will not be covered by the government. As anyone with health care insurance knows, it does not cover elective surgery, and certainly would not cover breast implants. Anyone receiving health care will have a co-pay which shows that even if they receive free coverage, the care itself is not free.

You people arguing against this are doing nothing but putting out false information. Typical republicans.

reply to post by Hal9000


Do you have a problem reading? Or is the idea of me labeling something different than you do, really bothering you? Yes, socialized medicine can be just taking money from taxes and giving it to others. look up the definition, or just read where I posted it.

And as others have pointed out, but no one will acknowledge, who ever said we had the "right" to make others work for us?

I dont think any one in this debate has pointed out that there is not now nor ever will be any true form of Democracy or Socialism or any other kind or government.

All governments are a mix of whatever works for them! Im from Europe and let me tell you that although some health systems here have there bad points, as a whole they are better than Americas! Iv experienced both, it cost me nothing in Ireland for a major op, where the same thing would have set me back thousands in America.

I'v talked to Americans living in Ireland who say a lot of yer expensive insurance policies arnt half as good as the basic level of care here(which they also get for free). We have private health care also, which is the same as public, you just get treated faster(not if its life threatening), someone said the goverment sets the prices of things in socialist health care, your wrong, the market sets it!

Americas view of socialism is so far off the mark its not even funny, I suppose thats what ya get for goin through the cold war with the big propaganda machine blasting anything that had a hint of looking after your neighbour!

Europe as a whole is healthier and happier than America! But were all evil socialist who should rot in hell right?

I am Canadian. I treasure our health care system. Not perfect, but infinately superior to the cruel Darwinian system that American conservatives defend.

You Americans need to realize that most first world nations regard your stubborn refusal to adopt a universal health care system as barbaric.

For a nation that regards itself as a harbringer of rights, you seem woefully behind the rest of the word in many respects.

Those leaders who are advocating universal health care are not proposing something radical -- just catching up to the rest of the first world nations.

revcc